Stashlogix Coupon Code – As Heard on Cannainsider

stashlogix coupon code

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As mentioned on the show with founder of Stashlogix, Skip Stone.
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The Stashlogix bags are a thoughtful and discrete way to store your favorite herbs, flowers, edibles and concentrates from prying eyes. They have a built in filter that will prevent the scent of your herbs from escaping the bag. Plug in your vaporizer for convenient charging without opening the bag.

Vape Cartridge Leader Talks About The Market – Ralph Morgan of O.penVape

Ralph Morgan of Open Vape

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Matthew: Hi. I’m Matthew Kind. Every Monday look for a fresh new episode where I will take you behind the scenes and interview the insiders that are shaping the rapidly evolving cannabis industry. Learn more at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com. That’s www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com. We’ve talked about CBD or cannabidiol on the show many times. Just to review thought, CBD is a non-psychoactive compound from the cannabis or hemp plant that has many benefits. Now our friends at Treatables have put together a one list chew that can help your dog or cat become more calm and balanced. Valerie wrote in to tell us about her experience with Treatables.

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Vape pens continue to take up a larger and larger portion of the cannabis market. To help us understand the latest in vaporizer technology and consumer preferences is Ralph Morgan, co-founder and CEO of Open Vape. Ralph welcome back to CannaInsider.

Ralph: Thank you very much. I appreciate the opportunity.

Matthew: I like to give listeners a sense of geography. Can you tell us where in the world you are today?

Ralph: Yeah. I’m based in Denver, Colorado. Open Vape is based in Denver but enjoyed everywhere.

Matthew: Yes and where are you today?

Ralph: I am in Oakland at a national industry gathering called the NCIA. It’s the third annual business symposium and it draws folks who are interested in getting into the space and also all the movers and shakers in it and NCIA I think is one of the best examples of a national association that anyone interested in the space should recognize, pay attention to, and be a part of.

Matthew: Ralph the last time you were on the show was back in January of 2015 but for new listeners that are not familiar with Open Vape can you tell a little bit about yourself and the company and why you started it?

Ralph: Sure. So before I got into cannabis I was in sales and marketing in the medical sector. I worked for companies such as Smith & Nephew and Stryker which are orthopedic implant companies. So I was selling products to surgeons specifically total joints; knees and hips and it was really an opportunity for me to participate in healthcare and when I saw cannabis continue to pop up on the news I was pretty ignorant to the subject. I was just intrigued. Did my due diligence. My wife included and we discovered that there was tremendous medical efficacy and that this was clearly going to be something that we felt was going to be a part of history and we wanted to be on the right side of it. So we jumped in, opened up a dispensary, and really relished the interaction with end users. People who are looking for a natural alternative to synthetics and pharmaceuticals and it really took off from there.

We saw an unmet demand in the market. The products that were healthier alternatives than smoking and from that unmet demand in the market we started this little company called Organa Labs and invested in a CO2 extraction machine, supercritical CO2 extraction machine where we could extract safely the essential oils of cannabis and put it in stuff. That’s how we got our start and then in 2012 we met a couple other entrepreneurs in the space. Some successful dispensary owners who really thought that a personal portable vaporizer with a disruptive technology that the efficiency of it, the discreteness was going to be disruptive, and we all agreed to give it a go together and we started a company called Open Vape and it’s been successful and wild, wild ride since then.

Matthew: Yes. I’ve looked at the stats on what’s selling in dispensaries and you really are doing an excellent job in terms of grabbing market share so kudo’s to you. One thing that I’m curious about is how big an impact was it owning a dispensary in terms of how well you could then turn around and speak to other dispensary owners about the benefits and scratching their itch. I mean did you know how to speak the language as a dispensary owner yourself so was that a huge help or just a small one? Did the product do most of the talking? I mean what was it like getting in the door with other dispensaries?

Ralph: Great question. I would say that the product did most of the heavy lifting. The perspective we gained by being dispensary owners was invaluable however because that experience gave us the benefit of knowing how enthusiastic people were about this product. When we first started dabbling with vaporizers it was all geared towards electronic cigarettes. So the technology wasn’t specific to cannabis which means that the failure rate was horrible. It was up around 40 percent and people still were enthusiastic about it. We had a no hassle, no questions asked return policy to help start to address that quality issue early on but it was truly a testament to the product. The ease of use, the discretion of less smell, and great value factor. There’s no waste to burning like a joint and we could get the same amount of money compared to regular flower or a cone joint or something was profound. So the experience from dispensary was great but it’s really the product that gets all the credit.

Matthew: And to give listeners a sense of how big Open Vape is and your footprint can you tell us how large Open Vape is and where exactly people can find Open Vape cartridges and pens?

Ralph: Sure. So since 2012 we’ve grown to approximately 90 employees in Colorado. We’re in nine states currently with New Mexico coming online this week and of course we have to have bricks and mortar. A production facility, a lab in each state because we’re not able to ship across state lines. So it’s a lot of effort, a lot of investment, and in total we’re in approximately 1200 dispensaries or collectives; retail locations and to find a location you can simply go to the Open Vape website or you can download the Open Vape app. The app will give you suggestions of where you can shop based on your geographic location.

Matthew: So let’s just review. Why are consumers choosing Vape pens? You mentioned they’re discrete but what are some of the other benefits?

Ralph: It’s discrete and there’s little fiddle factor. There’s nothing lost in the bottom of your pocket or your bag. It’s just so convenient and it’s a healthier alternative to smoking. You’re boiling liquid and you’re breathing in vapor as opposed to breathing in burnt plant matter.

Matthew: Okay and since we last talked a year and a half ago roughly how has the market for vape pens changed?

Ralph: Well we’ve seen statistics by ArcView. They put out an annual report; the RAND report. Reliable sources that talk about the trend of concentrates and largely that’s made up of vaporizing devices. Last year it was 39%, this year it’s 42%. If you include edibles which are largely infused by concentrates or oil we’re well over 50% and concentrates make up more than 50% of all cannabis consumed which is a huge statistic. So over the last year we’ve seen the trend of vaporization grow exponentially. It’s healthier, great value, and convenient.

Matthew: Now just a few years ago there was really just kind of one vaporizer cartridge but now the markets grown large enough where there’s kind of like a premier type of cartridge where there’s maybe no solvents but there’s still some cartridges that have glycerin of some sort. Can you talk about how the market has kind of grown to include new segments of products?

Ralph: You bet. When we first launched in the original formula it does include an excipient. It was the safest excipient we could find on the market then and so it remains so today and it’s something that was used by and it’s currently used by the pharmaceutical industry namely AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson as a safe inhalant. Today most of our skews are cartridges that do not include an excipient but instead have various levels of purification and the reintroduction of volatiles namely terpenes. So during the extraction process you’ll remove the volatiles first because they’re the most sensitive and we save those. We then refine the oil and mix again as a final stage the terpenes, esters, alcohols, flavonoids, and offer a really tasty, high quality product that has the benefit of all the volatiles and all the terpenes as much as we can preserve and capture and we call that top tier product craft reserve and that’s a trend we see in the market is with the competition it’s a race for purity and it’s really fascinating to watch.

There’s a lot of competition. There’s a lot of technology. There’s a lot of scientists that are entering the space many of which were from big pharma and now they’re in this space. It’s really fun. It’s really exciting and everyone benefits. It’s a win/win when we’re all chasing quality.

Matthew: Now many of listeners have heard of terpenes and flavonoids but they’re not quite sure what those pieces of the puzzle are or how they fit into creating a product. Can you kind of just walk us through how you think about terpenes and flavonoids and what it means in creating an optimized product for your customers?

Ralph: You bet. We refer to those as the volatiles because they’re so easily lost in the purification process. So it takes tremendous care and attention to preserve those and capture those and hold those and what they do is basically give the oil and the strains their individual characteristics in that Sour Diesel has a very distinct taste and it’s those things that give it that character. So you can have dominance and you can have an oil that’s virtually tasteless and you have folks and cannasseur’s that really want to enjoy the characters of each strain and those folks are the demographics for folks who really appreciate the additional cost associated with preserving those characteristics.

Matthew: Now most people at this point are familiar with what indicas and sativas are and they produce a spectrum of different feelings for the consumer. Do you see new possibilities for customizing and kind of dialing in the effects of cannabis with vape pens?

Ralph: I do. I think the industry saw a race for purity and with purity comes potency and that ship has sailed with various purification methods like chromatography. You can isolate the cannabinoids and you can have something close to a 100% THC. So once that hype has calmed down people have really gravitated towards the characteristics and the quality of the specific strain. So what we’re seeing now is a lot of attention paid to preserving that specific effect that that strain offers. The next I think trend is going to be dialing that in even further and I’m looking forward to the industry coming up with a way to characterize that. So for example if you’re a fan of Sour Diesel and you found a specific phenotype and flower product that really spoke to your ailments or really gave you the effect you’re looking for medicinally or recreationally and you wanted to repeat that it would be great to know more information about it like the fingerprint of it.

So if it was an X, Y access it might be Sour Diesel, maybe X1, Y3 that really was the products that spoke to you. So if we had a catalog of that information then we will all I think really enjoy learning and understanding and experiencing the nuances between the strains and the phenotypes even within one.

Matthew: Oh very interesting. Has there been any twists or turns that you didn’t see coming? I mean as the industry leader your focus on this market segment is probably the closest anybody can think of but is there anything that’s kind of come out of left field where you said well we really weren’t anticipating this but we’re going to adapt or change or evolve in a new way?

Ralph: Yeah there has been some examples of that and it’s been from regulation. In Colorado in 2014 the voters spoke and said hey we want this legal. We just want it available for adults and they can make up their own mind if this is right for them or not and at that point we thought we really achieved a milestone but that was cast in stone and couldn’t be reversed and this year we’ve had the most active legislative session and we’ve really experienced some steps backwards related to how regulators still view the industry and it was a huge reminder that we’ve made progress but we still have a lot of work to do and anyone who’s in the industry is also an activist because we have so much education and communication to the regulators, the gatekeepers. We need to inform them of the benefits of this product and that work it never rests and we have to be mindful of that.

We had a couple experiences where regulators made some decisions. They didn’t invite the industry to the table for those discussions and we all need to invest in each other and be more active, more involved in our communities, and make sure that we’re spending the time that’s necessary to educate the policymakers to we have responsible regulation.

Matthew: Now I understand you also have a dry herb vaporizer now. Can you tell us about that?

Ralph: Yeah I’m very excited about that. We connected with the Ziggy Marley camp and Ziggy really wanted to have a product that was available to more people. Dry herb vaporizers are notoriously incredibly expensive and he wanted something that was more affordable. So we joint ventured and we created a dry herb vape that was considerably less expensive but of high quality and proud to offer that. Looking forward to seeing where that relationship with Ziggy and his team takes us. We’re really excited about it. We’ve been working on this for quite some time and communicate anybody that we were doing so and just launched his latest album on May 20th and in conjunction with that we launched this dry herb vape. Sales and enthusiasm for the product have been incredible and really proud of the project.

Matthew: That’s great. I bet a dry herb vaporizer has a little more challenges there because with the oil vaporizing there’s essentially a disposable product after you’re done. You’re throwing it away and with the herb vaporizer you’re using that ongoing is that right? What kind of challenges does that present in terms of making sure the components last and so forth?

Ralph: Well just like the rest of our products we offer a warranty on it that’s really customer centric. So if people have issues with it of course we treat them right but they’re very unique products and they have their own challenges and also their own positive offerings for folks that really enjoy flower. This is the product for them and they can grind up their flower; their favorite flower and still have a healthier alternative to smoking and enjoy the benefits that come from that.

Matthew: You mentioned that obviously cannabis is still federally illegal so you have to have kind of a set up in each state where you operate. Do you also look at; is it through licensing acquisition? I mean how does it look exactly when you grow from state to state?

Ralph: Our model is a licensing model. So we license our IP and we sell packaging and marketing to our licensees. Those licensees must qualify and part of that qualification process is that they’re properly licensed with the state. That’s the only way that we’re able to move forward is if they’re in a state obviously that recognizes cannabis as a legal business and they’re responsible for touching the plant and we do not make money from the sale of cannabis in those states. Instead we make money on licensing the IP and selling packaging.

Matthew: Is that just a matter of taking the playbook of like franchisees or something? Do you kind of take the best practices from other industries and then just apply them to the cannabis industry so you’re not reinventing the wheel there?

Ralph: Yeah I think that’s a great analog. Like a franchise you’re sharing a proven process, a proven model.

Matthew: When you look ahead the next two or three years where do you see the vape pen market going to and what excites you the most about it?

Ralph: I’m interested in what the future brings and I think that includes compounding cannabis plus fill in the blank equates to what? I think there’s great application for compounding cannabis with chamomile for more relaxation. What’s a healthy alternative to an energy drink or an alternative to a cup of coffee but in the form of vaporization? I think that’s the future is cannabis mixed with other beneficial botanicals.

Matthew: That’s a great idea. So maybe something like CBD vape cartridge with turmeric to maybe reduce inflammation and things like that?

Ralph: Correct. Obviously we’ve got a lot of work ahead of us. We need to study those products and make sure that they’re safer inhalation vaporization but a version of that I think is what the future promises and it will be very exciting to see what comes of it.

Matthew: I like to close the interview with some personal development questions Ralph. With that being said is there a book that has had a big impact over the course of your life when you look back and you say wow this book had a lot of impact. I find myself thinking about it year after year and you want to share it with CannaInsider listeners?

Ralph: Wow that’s a huge question.

Matthew: No pressure.

Ralph: No pressure. I love to read and I’ve got about an hour commute each day so I love to listen to books on CD and I’ll confess that one of my favorites is; man I have a hard time picking a favorite but I’ll mention several. Wayne Dyer is someone that I adore. Deepak Chopra is another one where they focus on you being in control of your destiny and we create our own fortune and good luck but we’re in control so it’s not I hope I have a good day. It’s make it a great day and I love to start my day with that because it’s a reminder that we have got so much opportunity in America and often times we forget. Often times we feel like we have a sense of entitlement and success should just come to us but those authors help remind me that we’re in a real special place and we have lots of opportunity here and I don’t think there’s any better example of American than cannabis.

I think the smell of freedom is cannabis. Freedom smells like cannabis. I don’t think there’s a more American industry when the American flag was; one of the original American flags was made with hemp and the constitution, the original constitution. I’m proud to be an American. I’m proud of hemp and cannabis and I love the intersection of those. So those authors would be my first pick and for all those reasons.

Matthew: Great quote “freedom smells like cannabis.” Is there a tool web based or otherwise that you consider indispensable to your business life or productivity that you would recommend?

Ralph: Wow a tool? Yeah I would say the most powerful and effective tool that’s affected my life and my professional career is; it may sound cheesy but its criticism from my business partners. Cannabis is a new industry. It’s moving a mock speed. We all have to make a lot of decisions in a short period of time and we have no time to waste on pleasantries or being politically correct. So often times partners in the company; the co-founders Chris McIlvaney, Jeremy Hidol, Jim Collins. We will offer each other some corrective criticism and serve up some humble pie often and there’s a lot of trust that goes along with that. You can have an amazing idea so you think and have your partner explain to you all the reasons why it’s a terrible idea but that’s empowering because that means you get to improve.

There’s tremendous cognitive gain from having that level of openness and trust in one another. So that’s been I think one of the best tools and contributors to our success is getting more collaboration. It has allowed us to expand, it has allowed us to partner with others, and share a smaller piece of a much, much larger pie.

Matthew: It’s funny you mentioned that. It’s the “Book of Mastery” I want to say talks about that as the feedback. Having a feedback loop from people that have the ability to help you excel is a critical part in achieving mastery because otherwise you can be on the wrong course and not know it. So it’s vital to have those kind of a little peer counsel that can keep you on track. So it sounds like you have that so that’s great.

Ralph: Yep. Thank you.

Matthew: Ralph in closing can you tell us one more time how listeners can look and find Open Vape in their community?

Ralph: You bet. There’s two suggestions. One you can simply go to our website and you can also download the app and the advantage of the latter is that it will recognize if you allow it; it will recognize your location and it can make recommendations where you can shop and at places that are conveniently located near you.

Matthew: Great. Well Ralph thanks so much for coming on CannaInsider. We really appreciate it.

Ralph: It was a pleasure. Thank you very much.

Matthew: If you enjoyed the show today, please consider leaving us a review on iTunes, Stitcher or whatever app you might be using to listen to the show. Every five star review helps us to bring the best guests to you. Learn more at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/itunes. What are the five disruptive trends that will impact the cannabis industry in the next five years? Find out with your free report at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/trends. Have a suggestion for an awesome guest on www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com, simply send us an email at feedback(at) We would love to hear from you.

Please do not take any information from CannaInsider or its guests as medical advice. Contact your licensed physician before taking cannabis or using it for medical treatments. Lastly the host or guests on CannaInsider may or may not invest in the companies or entrepreneurs profiled on the show. Please consult your licensed financial advisor before making any investment decisions. Final disclosure to see if you’re still paying attention. This little whistle jingle you’re listening to will get stuck in your head for the rest of the day. Thanks for listening and look for another CannaInsider episode soon. Take care. Bye-bye.

Ralph Morgan, co-founder of O.penVape discusses the vape cartridge and vape pen market and how his company grew 1200% last year. Ralph shares his thoughts on how the industry is maturing and evolving and where the opportunities are now.

Key Takeaways:
[2:53] – Ralph talks about his background and starting Open Vape
[5:45] – Advantages of being a dispensary owner prior to Open Vape
[7:31] – The key attributes of Open Vape products
[9:07] – How has the vape pen market changed over the last couple of years
[12:33] – Terpenes and flavonoid considerations
[13:56] – Vape pens customizing the cannabis effects
[16:08] – Dealing with surprises in the market
[18:07] – New dry herb vaporizer
[20:38] – Opearting in different states
[22:00] – The future of the vape pen market
[23:39] – Ralph’s book and web tool recommendations
[28:17] – Contact details for Open Vape

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The Five Disruptive Trends Shaping The Cannabis Industry Now

The Whole Foods of Cannabis?

Michael Steinmetz CEO of FlowKana

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Matthew: Hi I’m Matthew Kind. Every Monday and Wednesday look for a fresh new episode where I’ll take you behind the scenes and interview the insiders that are shaping the rapidly evolving cannabis industry. Learn more at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com. That’s www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com. Are you an accredited investor looking to be part of some of the most sought after private cannabis investment opportunities? Get on our free private investment alert service at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/invest. Once you have subscribed to the investor alert service you will get access to curated opportunities that the public will simply never see. Again that URL is www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/invest. That’s www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com. Now here’s your program.

Just as Whole Foods created a whole new market segment for discerning shoppers, Flow Kana is now doing the same for cannabis. Providing a higher quality product while also giving customers transparency on where the cannabis they purchased was grown and under what conditions. I’ve invited Michael Steinmetz, Founder of Flow Kana onto the show today to tell us more. Michael welcome to CannaInsider.

Michael: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Matthew: Michael before we dive into what Flow Kana is can you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into this industry?

Michael: Sure, of course. I’m originally from Caracas, Venezuela. I was born there, grown up there, and just recently moved up here to the Bay area about three years ago really in pursuit of understanding this industry. Really understanding how the ins and outs worked and who the different players were and really how I could be a part of it and add value to the current industry. I’d always kind of been a passionate advocate about the space. My mother actually used cannabis for really chronic medicinal reasons growing up. So I very closely followed it during my entire youth and early on adult life and I was always kind of very curious and interested to see it kind of evolve in a professional and responsible manner and kind of move away from the reggae and Rastafari and the taboo that’s kind of associated and the negative stigma around it and I kind of being a close advocate back in 2010 when it was the election time here in California and we were so close to getting it approved. I was like wow this is really going to happen in our lifetime.

So I decided to sell my business in Venezuela around three years ago and I moved out here with my wife really to understand the industry and understand the different aspects of it and different facets and see how I could help move the needle and make it become a more responsible and professional industry and just kind leverage and work with a lot of the operators that currently existed. So yeah that’s kind of how I started. Just kind of a passionate young person in the space and just realized it was really going to happen in our lifetime and it was just up to us to really make it happen. So that’s kind of when we decided to move out here and get to it.

Matthew: Great timing getting out of Venezuela by the way.

Michael: Yeah.

Matthew: I think sometimes we get stuck in our North American bubble.

Michael: Oh yeah.

Matthew: I’ve spent extensive time in South America and I’m familiar with Hugo Chavez; who he was and now Maderro but can you just give a little overview because Caracas has a lot of natural resources in terms of petroleum but now essentially the economy is somewhat in collapse and could you just talk about what life was like in Venezuela growing up and then the transition to Chavez and where we are today?

Michael: Oh yeah. I mean that’s actually; well that could be an entire interview in itself.

Matthew: Yeah.

Michael: We could spend the next hour talking about that but sure I can give you a little bit of a glimpse of what my life was like and to be honest it was a very sad and tragic continuous deterioration of the country since I was born there and grown up there. I was born in ’83. Definitely went through different political schemes or different political parties over my youth. None of which were definitely something that the country should have been proud of and definitely what caused us to get to the Chavez regime in ’98. When ’98 Chavez got re-elected. He gets a major, major victory. Majority vote because Venezuela had been poorly run for many years. A very corrupt country. Very dependent on oil money. A very rich nation so it really never took the time to develop industries and develop manufacturing and educate the people because we were just sitting on this one resource that we could all depend on.

I think that is always a blessing and a curse right. It’s a curse of the black gold that they call it right and yeah when Chavez regime came on in ’98 basically he started taking all the private companies and turning them into public institutions and governmentalizing them and that became very slow and bureaucratic and slowly killed entrepreneurships, slowly killed corporations, slowly killed the industry of the country and he wanted the country to depend on the government and when they wanted food they needed to ask the government, when they wanted water they needed to ask the government, when they wanted electricity they needed to ask the government, when they needed money they needed to ask the government. So they created a dependency and in a very Communist/Socialist regime that was disguised as a democracy for so long and nowadays we’re really, really suffering the consequences. I think it’s close to 18, 19 years of this regime.

We have a country that does not have the necessary basic food and it doesn’t have the necessary education and it doesn’t have toilet paper, chicken, or milk and there’s horrible lines. The crime has skyrocketed. The currency has devalued. People don’t really understand how bad it is because when you read about it in the news it sounds so ludicrous that it’s almost unfathomable. It’s unfathomable and the truth is that it’s probably sometimes even worse than what you get to see in the news when it leaks. So I left with my wife actually three years ago because we were lucky to sell our business in a really opportune time but that was really the motivation of it too. We came to a point where we couldn’t import the goods that we needed to produce and basically we had a massive devaluation. In basically three weeks our currency devalued almost 600 percent. So the cost of my product went up 600 percent and it just killed the economy.

Matthew: Wow.

Michael: This was a very intentional play from the part of the government. A lot of people say that they just make mistakes and they’re really stupid and they’re really; they don’t know what they’re doing and I actually think it’s the opposite. I think this is really, really well thought out strategy from the Fidel Castro regime and the communist regime and it’s just a little playbook of communism that they’ve just rolled out in our country. And it’s very, very sad. We went from being one of the wealthiest nations in the world where you basically had; I always use the example that says the Cartier store the first store they opened outside of Paris was in Caracas and like you see the Ferragamo Bags and they were in Caracas, New York, London, and Caracas was this mega capital of the world and we were this dominant force in the world and poised to do great things and we just totally misused it. Improperly used our resources. So it’s very sad to see where we’ve gotten to today and hopefully change will come soon.

Matthew: Wow. It’s really interesting to get that firsthand account. I recently read a statistic that 40 percent of the millennials in the United States favor socialism over capitalism.

Michael: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matthew: And that really scared me because every country I go to all over the world where they either formally socialist or currently somewhat socialist the economy never feels the same. It’s kind of like this zombie economy and I see kind of the rise of Bernie Sanders and while he does speak a lot of truth at the same time I don’t think he understands what socialism would feel like and you got to see that whole spectrum through your life. I mean and it sounds like you favor more a capitalist society than a socialist.

Michael: I don’t know Matt. I mean certainly I think capitalism and free markets definitely end up resolving themselves out in the end. So I definitely like that system for sure. I don’t have actually anything against socialism. In fact I truly believe in the socialism on principle when it’s actually done properly and truly socialist. I would not say what we have in Venezuela is socialism. I would say we have fascist/communism/dictatorship that’s dressed up as socialism.

Matthew: Right.

Michael: When I think of socialism I think of Norway or Scandinavian countries where they have access to healthcare and they have access to education and they have access to good unemployment and they have access to a lot of services that the basic population should need and I think in principle socialism should work I just don’t think what we have in Venezuela is socialism. But I would agree with you that in general in countries where socialism is in place it hasn’t been the best opportune model for extreme growth I would say.

Matthew: Right and some would argue that Norway’s socialism works so well because they have such a large strategic petroleum reserve.

Michael: Exactly.

Matthew: That they can invest in other things.

Michael: Yeah maybe that’s very true and maybe had we used our oil instead of for the pockets for the very few who stole it; to actually use it for the country in education and once you educate the population and you teach them the tools to build their own businesses and build their own ways of income then they don’t depend on the oil right. I feel like we should be using the natural resources of our oil. Every single dollar we get to figure out how we get out of it. You know what I mean?

Matthew: Yeah.

Michael: A lot of people just sit pretty and comfortable with this kind of oil stream and they build the businesses and they build really strong motes and defensibility around their businesses to continue to move forward in this direction and I just think that doesn’t serve anybody.

Matthew: Yeah. Qatar has done a great job of that. Kind of taking the oil money and reinvesting it in creating other channels for the economy aside just for oil but then there’s Saudi Arabia that really hasn’t done as good a job so.

Michael: Yeah.

Matthew: You’re right there’s examples around the world but it sounds like this is a whole separate show Michael. We’ve got to stay on topic here with Cannabis.

Michael: Okay.

Matthew: So tell us about Flow Kana. What is it and why did you start it?

Michael: Perfect. So Flow Kana really what it is it’s the first organic sun grown sustainable cannabis brand and what we do that is very different from most companies is that rather than going down and vertically integrating down our supply chain we actually partner up with master growers that already have been doing it for multiple generations right and our whole brand and our whole ethos and our whole philosophy is to give the small farmer a unified voice and the scalability that they need to compete in the marketplace because as an individual grower, as an individual farmer you produce too little cannabis. You’re forced to do too many of the pieces to go to market. You’re forced to dry, to cure, to trim, to sell, to market, to distribute, and not really allowed to focus on the core of who you are which is a cultivator, which is growing.

So the whole idea with Flow Kana is to give enough small farmers the services and tools that they need to go to market efficiently in a way that’s scalable with their neighboring farmers and that’s kind of what we’re about and I think was that the question or how did I get started? Was that the second part?

Matthew: Yeah.

Michael: Yeah or why did I get started? So I got started Matt really because after spending a lot of time in the industry working and networking and I volunteered at a dispensary for some time and I streamlined their operations and their management and they got to learn about the ins and out. I found that because of the weird gray area that this industry lies in both legally and with the whole kind of medical card aspect to it and the licensing structure that did exist but doesn’t really exist in California it created a lot of what do you call like market irregularities I would say and one of the pieces that was really suffering under the current scheme in California was the cultivator, was the farmer. Being so far removed from the end consumer they were year after year pushed down and pushed down and pushed down in price and they were not allowed to send their brand downstream and communicate their values and who they were to the customer.

So we basically came in to disrupt both of those things. We came in to basically pay our farmers fairly, get them into competitive rates in the marketplace, and allow them to connect directly with the customer to be able to tell their stories so that we could stop buying moonshine cannabis which is what this industry is all about right. We go from a black market environment where whatever your dealer had is what you got right.

Matthew: Right.

Michael: You didn’t really question anything. You’re dealer came into your home. You want him out of there as quickly as possible. You don’t really ask him to much questions because whatever he has you’re taking and we moved to a world of dispensaries where you have varieties and you have choices and you can ask questions to a bud tender but you still don’t understand who grew it, you still don’t understand what went into it, you still have no idea what chemicals and pesticides were used in a cultivation, and we came in to basically give all that transparency and visibility down to the supply chain and I think that’s super critical to arm consumers with knowledge and to arm them with more information and facts to be able to base their decisions in the future.

Matthew: And what has the response been to Flow Kana to date?

Michael: It’s been amazing. I mean I think we really hit our core with a lot of consumers at large and other industry folks as well that understood kind of the importance of giving credit where credit was due right and giving credit to the farmer that did spend eight months in the full sun cultivating this plant and loving it and taking care of it. Give him the credit for growing and for putting it out to the world. I always make the comparison that growing into a dispensary right now is as if you went to a Bodega or a liquor store and instead of buying Budweiser or Stella or any of the brands that you buy you’re just buying Bodega beer and Bodega wine and that’s not the case right. Every single bottle and every single beer and every wine has a story and it has a process and it has values and it has an identity and that’s being lost right now in the current system, in the current industry.

We’re buying a whole bunch of moonshine cannabis and I think that’s not leading; that’s perpetuating the problem that we created in the black market in prohibition with our dealer and I think one of the things that we’re trying to push as Flow Kana in this industry is to encourage more people to be ultra-transparent in their practices. To really show what goes into what they’re selling and what comes out and I think and I don’t blame the current system the way it is because in their defense we have been operating in the black legal illicit market for a very long time and very unregulated market and there was lives at stake. So a lot of the cultivators didn’t want to get their brand downstream either. So it’s a weird kind of dichotomy between the legal landscape and how the industry is evolving and how the consumers are pushing the industry forward as a more of a consumer goods product, industry. So that’s kind of where we stand.

Matthew: How is the cannabis from Flow Kana presented and packaged because I think you’re doing kind of something interesting here that listeners would like to hear about.

Michael: Totally. So every single one of our packaged jars we call them are co-branded with the farmer okay. Co-branding means every single jar comes with the name of the farmer that grew it and it comes with where it was grown. So it’s the same way that you buy kind of craft coffee nowadays where it says grown by Eddie Barrientos in Guatemala right. So our craft cannabis will have the label of the grower, it will have exactly where they grew it, and if you go back to our site you’ll know exactly; you’ll know more about their farm. You’ll know exactly about their cultivation practices and you can even connect to them. You can send them a message through Facebook or Twitter. So that’s kind of the unique difference between how we package our product and the reason why co-branding is important too is that at the consumer level it’s going to be too hard and too difficult for every consumer to remember or to learn all the different farmer brands on top of all the different strain names.

The whole industry is very complex and confusing right now. So the whole idea with Flow Kana is that we become an umbrella brand where consumers can be like oh this is a Flow Kana jar, this is a Flow Kana product. Let me see who grew it. Let me see who manufactured it and the whole idea is to gain the trust of the consumer through the Flow Kana and then be able to showcase the story of the grower or the manufacturer or whatever product we’re talking about to the customer.

Matthew: And where does most of the flower come from?

Michael: So most of our flower actually comes from up north from the Emerald Triangle. Particularly the Mendocino area. I think Mendocino is poised to be amongst the quality capitol of cannabis for sure. I think the biggest producing area in the world as most of your listeners know is the Emerald Triangle. You have the region of Humboldt county which is up north and you have the region of Mendocino and Trinity right. Those are the three counties that form the triangle. Out of those three I think Mendocino and Humboldt are kind of the biggest and most evolved and Humboldt while they’ve been focused on volume and scaling and production and that’s kind of what they’re known for. Mendocino is actually been known much more for quality right. They’ve had even more restrictions on how many plants they can grow and how big they can grow them and so the farmers in Mendocino they’ve only been able to grow 25 plants so for them they’ve had to get really, really, really good at growing 25 plants to be able to survive and to depend on that market.

Matthew: Are they huge plants or like the size of trees?

Michael: Yeah. They are massive actually. You’d be surprised. The first time I went to a; the real reason I kind of started Flow Kana was in part of my research when I stumbled onto Happy Day Farms and I went up north and I saw their farm and I saw their entire farm eco system where they not only grew cannabis but they grew other vegetables for the community. So you had your patch of cabbage and carrots and sunflowers and then you had your cannabis plant right next to it and it was such a beautiful eco system and the plants that I saw; this plant must have been 14 feet high. It was twice; a little bit more than twice the size of me and it was massive and you know I’m used to seeing small stressed out plants under LED’s in the indoor and seeing a full, full spectrum and full light. Full eight months cycle underneath the sun to me was really kind of changed how I understand the growing; the cultivation aspect of the industry for sure.

Matthew: Now it sounds like there is a strong tradition of growing cannabis well in that area, in northern California. Obviously ideal temperatures and things like that but what about the characteristics of the growers themselves. They kind of seem like they’ve really gone deep. Like these are the Jedi growers up there. Would you say that’s true?

Michael: A 100 percent. I mean these are; when we say master growers we don’t say this loosely and I think they have I would say 95 percent of our farmers are multi-generational farmers so these are second and third generation cannabis farmers. So this is people that have been working on the land for decades and not only working on the land but really getting good at picking the right genetics for their plot of land. One of the things that’s really interesting that’s coming out in cannabis that has been kept under wraps and under prohibition is the whole idea of Appalachians. The same concept of Appalachians with wine of Sonoma or wine of Bordeaux is that every single cannabis plant and every cannabis seeds is very particular to the environment in which it is grown in. So a farmer that grows in a southern facing wall has totally different sun exposure than a farmer that has an eastern facing wall and someone that is at 1,000 feet is totally different than someone who’s at 300 feet and then there’s the fog line.

So how close you are to the coast has more salt water or less salt in the air. So the humidity is different. So all these different aspects play a huge part in the cultivation. So for instance one of our farmers actually told me this story this weekend which I thought was really interesting is that he finally upgraded and he bought a different plot of land which was only I think he said 600 yards away from his previous plot of land where he had been living for forty years and he said that last year when he planted the same genetics and the same grow cycle, the same everything that he’s always done in this plot of land that just only 600 yards away the yield was terrible. It was totally off. Nothing worked out and he was fascinated that of course he knew this already going into it that it would be different but not that much so and I think that’s what we’re going to start seeing in cannabis and that’s what’s so unique about the strains that we have in Flow Kana is that the strains that we carry are very boutique genetics; a very rare genetics that the farmers have been handling for decades.

So they’ve really mastered it and perfected it between the soil and the angle of the sun and how much water it gets and what you get is a strain that won’t grow anywhere else in the world except there with those same conditions to turn out exactly the best that it does and I think that part of the cannabis plant is fascinating.

Matthew: So with Flow Kana you get this beautiful glass jar, this great presentation and you’re holding it in your hand and you get to learn about the farmer and the region it came from. You’re getting more benefit and you’re paying a higher price I assume.

Michael: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matthew: On a program basis how does it compare to say like the median gram of cannabis flower in California?

Michael: Right. So actually we price our ace at forty dollars an eighth. I would say that for better or for worse dispensaries have created a bottom shelf, a mid tier, and a high end cannabis category. That’s usually what you see in a dispensary when you walk in is three general categories low end, medium, and high end and within there the price ranges a lot. So I would say the high end cannabis ranges from between forty dollars to sixty-five dollars and eighth is probably where you see the top end cannabis and we chose to position our cannabis on the low end of the high end cannabis if that makes any sense. So forty dollars being the low end of that category and that’s kind of just a personal belief of ours that I’ve always kind of hated in the world really why it is that you’re going to pay for something organic and the organic one has to be more expensive than the chemical one that was processed in the lab.

It’s kind of like the incentives are totally off in the way that we’ve built the world that we incentivize one cent when all these big corporations to continue to grow under poor conditions and we charge farmers that are growing organically; we force them to pay for a permit so they can get organic certified so that makes their product more expensive. So I’ve always felt that to be backwards in the world. So our hope with the cannabis is that we can do it with Flow Kana is that we can actually show that hey we can produce incredible high grade sun grown organic cannabis. Probably the best quality you’ll find in California and actually make it at an affordable price.

Matthew: I think it would be easy to change the whole market towards organic if we got rid of the organic term and just called organic regular, and then we call the other extra chemical or doused in chemicals and pesticides. No one would want that.

Michael: That’s exactly right Matt. I mean I’ve always felt that was upside in our world. You should put a label on the ones that have the chemicals and like hey this has wax and this has whatever; poisonous gas that was used in World War II whatever.

Matthew: Yeah.

Michael: That should be notified. That should be told to the consumers. We should just live in a world where we just assume everything was done with organic and love and care but we don’t unfortunately. So yeah that’s kind of the reality and hopefully with cannabis it can be a little bit different.

Matthew: Now tell us about your app and the ordering experience.

Michael: Yeah perfect. So a lot of people actually confuse Flow Kana as a delivery service right because I would say that our go to market strategy was a delivery service. We always wanted to be a cannabis brand and always be known for that but when we tried to take our brand and put it in dispensaries really early on in the project I would say about a year and a half ago, two years ago we were a little bit ahead of our time. Dispensaries were not used to prepackaged flower. So they were like you’re crazy. I’d buy my cannabis by the pound and I put it in my own bags why am I going to be your prepackaged flower? So we were like okay screw it dispensaries won’t take our product let’s just start a delivery service. Let’s showcase the value of our farmers. Let’s tell their stories. Let’s showcase the quality of the medicine and let’s build our brand direct to consumer first and then see if we can then back into selling to dispensaries and doing wholesale.

So that’s exactly what’s happened now two years afterwards where we’ve built kind of a little bit of a name for ourselves and a reputation for ourselves and now dispensaries are excited to work with us and partner with us for our prepackaged flowers and we’re super excited to work with them as well. So your question was what is our app and our delivery service? We still continue to do a direct to consumer aspect to our business but we’re not a regular delivery service like anything you would find in WeedMaps. We don’t have a bunch of edibles and topicals and creams and tinctures and all these other products. We just focus on our one product that we do really, really well which is flower. So we started off a year and a half ago with the delivery service and it’s a web app based service.

So you basically go to, you browse through our menu. With a few simple clicks you’ve uploaded your medical card, you’ve uploaded your license, and you place your order and we verify; for the first time user we’ll verify you as a patient. Once you’re cleared from that verification process then within 19 minutes we get a delivery to your door. So it’s basically on demand cannabis delivery. Our average delivery time is around 19 minutes.

Matthew: Okay so in California exclusively right now?

Michael: That’s exclusive I would say our delivery service is exclusively actually to the northern California area, to the Bay area.

Matthew: Okay.

Michael: We only deliver in San Francisco and the East Bay right now and we’re doing wholesale. So you can find our Flow Kana flower in dispensaries all over the Bay area and also in LA; Los Angeles. So in Los Angeles you can find us in dispensaries down there and our; it’s funny because our delivery service was kind of our go to market strategy. We actually built a really, really incredible customer service team and incredible driving team and we actually have a really kind of exceptional service so now in this moment and time we’re actually deciding what to do with both. We’re kind of having a wholesale program in placed and a direct to consumer in place. So we’ll probably maintain those as long as the laws permit and as they evolve over time over these next couple years.

Matthew: And what have been the most popular (28:37 unclear)?

Michael: Popular flower strains on our menu? I mean I think that varies Matt. I mean I think the whole basis around our company is that they’re all small batched okay. So unlike I think what some of the more commercial industry is moving towards which is producing 1,000 pounds of OG or producing a 1,000 pounds of Sour Diesel. We really want to focus on small batch, small lots, and allowing the person to really learn about the farmer and find the farmer that they like. Traditionally what we’ve seen is that people that like a certain farmer they’ll really enjoy all their strains and people that try a farmer that they don’t like say it’s too strong or too potent or giving them too much anxiety most of the strains from that farmer are that way as well and the reason being most farmers kind of grow what they like to consume and obviously it has the energy and intention of the farmer during the growing process.

So more than being kind of strain specific in terms of what strains have been doing well in our platform I think certain farmers have found their niche customers that really like their product.

Matthew: Okay so you’re buying more the farmer and the region than you are the strain in this case.

Michael: Yeah I think so and I think like I actually hope over time that I think the whole strain naming thing is a little bit of a nonsense to be honest right. There’s zero accountability. If someone says this is Sour Diesel there’s really not a way to know if that’s Sour Diesel or if it’s something else.

Matthew: Right, right.

Michael: There’s thousands and thousands of names and it’s very, very confusing. We actually have a very kind of talented design team in house so we’re trying to figure out a way how to reclassify cannabis in a very digestible way. The same way that you have IPA’s and you have pilsners and you have the porters and whatever else that you have. I think something like that needs to happen in cannabis where we reclassify it in a way that's a little bit more understandable and digestible and sure each strain has an enormous variability with the genetic code but there is some sort of classification of that very high level that we can all kind of agree on as an industry to make it easy for customers right. Like someone coming into the industry that has never tried cannabis before especially an elderly person they’re probably not going to like to try green crack or under enough amount to swear and the program Thunder F something else.

I don’t know it’s funny because I actually read an interesting book called “The Last Call” and it was a story kind of about prohibition; the alcohol prohibition and you know during the alcohol times and under prohibition it was a very, very similar landscape right. You needed to have a medical card to buy medical grade alcohol from medical licensed dispensaries and those names back then it was just like whoever built that barrel in the basement got to name the barrel whatever they wanted right. So it was more of like the farmers right now they name the strains whatever they think they want. Some of them keep genetic lineage in place but I think the naming convention is very confusing to customers. So I don’t know how that’s evolve over time but I’m excited to see how it does.

Matthew: And where do you see Flow Kana evolving over the next couple years?

Michael: Yeah so I mean I think as the industry, I think as industries evolve and mature what usually tends to happen is that there’s a great big degree of consolidation. There’s a lot, a lot of noise right now in the industry. There’s a lot, a lot of brands out there. There’s a lot of people because of the regulatory system has been not so robust since 1996 when they kind of put in place the Compassionate Care Act here in California when cannabis first became legal. The legal system was kind of left for the market to kind of evolve and it’s kind of done some great things and it’s done some not so great things as well.

So I see Flow Kana kind of being really true to its core and really being true to being a brand that people can recognize and can trust and we see ourselves moving into other categories not just flower and having Flow Kana some sort of edibles and topicals and tinctures because the whole idea is that as the industry matures and more people come in what are those people going to look for? What brands are they going to trust? What are they going to look for in a product and I think the easier it is and the deeper connection they can form with one brand or several brands the better it will be for them. So kind of staying true to our core and just kind of becoming much more of a recognized brand and a trusted brand in the industry.

Matthew: So a lot of people listening don’t always get to hear of all the difficulties in starting a business. They think that’s it’s all you wave a magic wand and you’ve got this successful business. What have been some of the difficulties in getting Flow Kana going? Is there some setbacks or times where you’ve had to pivot and try different things?

Michael: Yeah absolutely. I mean I think what you said is very correct. I think building a business and starting a business is a very challenging task and it’s something that you really, really have to love what you’re doing and be extremely passionate about it and be very convinced of your path and the decision you took to embark in entrepreneurship because the truth is it’s so hard and you get so many problems and so many obstacles along the way that you have to have that passion and that love and that intensity and that connection to really overcome that and in Flow Kana I would say it was no different. I mean I think we’ve been moments where right between fund raising where the cash is getting close to the end and you’re struggling to figure out how to pay the bills and then oh the cash comes in and then you can breathe.

Then there’s times where the team doesn’t work out and you bring on people and you test them out for a while and some people the paths don’t align and you’re unable to move on. So for us as a company especially in this really nascent industry that’s being formed. I think the real, real thing that we kind of stated hard is to stay very nimble and adaptable and stay very just quick to decisions because one thing that we know for sure is that this industry is going to change dramatically over the next coming years and I would even say months. From the way the industry looked January 1st to the looks of today is totally different in my lens and the truth is this is not we’re inventing the personal computer and we’re going to figure out if people like it or don’t like it. This is just like we know that there is a demand right. People love cannabis.

The demand exists. We don’t have a demand; we’re not demand constrained. That’s not our biggest problem that we’re trying to solve. We’re not trying this fight for market share or education. What we’re really trying to solve is what’s going to happen to the legal landscape? What’s going to happen when new consumers come online right? I feel like in a way the illegal, legal market and the trends and the patterns that we see in dispensaries in buying behaviors and purchasing behaviors they’re very, very skewed because I actually believe the majority of the market but in the 90 plus percent hasn’t even entered yet to the legal landscape.

So what’s going to happen when all these new consumers come in and when other demographic comes in and older people come in and baby boomers come in? So it’s like this industry is going to change a lot both in what the consumers want, what the legal landscape is going to be, and I think for us being adaptive and nimble and definitely pivoting along the way has been critical. I think the biggest pivot we’ve done to date has definitely been refocusing our business from direct to consumer to wholesale; selling to dispensaries and that was kind of a challenge to overcome in itself and figuring out how do we adapt the team that we currently have to the new kind of set of products and services. So yeah I mean you’re spot on with that question.

Matthew: How do you get the dispensaries to care about your product? I mean they’re getting a lot of pitches all the time and they have a lot of different things to show and there’s limited counter space and retail space. So how do you get them to care about you and to make sure they show customers that walk in Flow Kana?

Michael: Well I think to be successful in business and really in life Matt you really have to take care of your relationships. You really have to foster deeper and more meaningful relationships and with our dispensaries we don’t really just treat them as a vendor relationship. To us we see them as partners. It’s like how do we allow; how do we get Flow Kana to grow in your dispensary and how do we take you to grow with us? So a lot of what we do is we actually spend a lot of time with our marketing team and our sales team with each client figuring out what are those strategies that will help you reach your goals and help us reach our goals at the same time and I think I firmly believe that business is about win/win and I think if you build; if you win at someone else’s expense then you really haven’t created any value. You just created kind of a zero sum game and I think unfortunately to this date because cannabis has been in this black market and has been under prohibition a lot of people have put those short term gains over the long term because there’s been no clarity, there’s been no visibility to what the long term is going to look like and I think now that we get into a more regulated marketplace and a more stable marketplace I think it’s really important for people to start switching that mindset from the short term to the long term. And how do we build the relationship that I don’t just sell a couple of jars of Flow Kana to you today? How do I sell a couple jars to you from Flow Kana for the next ten years?

Matthew: Right.

Michael: So I think when you go into a relationship with the intent of being a long term win/win it really changes the game and that’s kind of how we approach our partner dispensaries.

Matthew: Michael I want to transition to a couple personal development questions if we can.

Michael: Perfect, yeah.

Matthew: Is there a book that stands out in your mind as having a big impact on your life that you’d like to share with listeners?

Michael: Yeah absolutely. I mean I think personal development is something that I’ve taken very deep to heart from very early on in my life. I was very lucky that my mother was a life coach. So when I was growing up as a little kid I was twelve or thirteen and I was reading Deepak Chopra and Wayne Dyer and Tony Robbins and all these personal development life coaches and learning the tools and the strategies to grow yourself because I think it’s really funny because human beings are the one species in this planet that really have the choice to grow right. Every single object and every single thing on this planet has always; it’s unlimited right. A tree will grow as tall as it possibly can. The branch on the tree will grow as tall as it possibly can. The leaf on that plant will grow as tall as it possibly can to reach more sunlight and I think growing and expanding is always like a principle or the universe and human beings are the one element of it that really have the choice to even continue to grow as fast as you can or as long as you can or you could settle for something less.

So personal development is something that I really, really spent a lot of time with and I purposely leave a lot of time during my day to growth and in terms of books yeah well I could name my heroes really. The way that I approach my personal growth was I pinpointed in life the leaders and the people that I most greatly admire and the people and the leader that I would love to kind of be or be known as or called like and I think when you pick those people that you admire and you like then you study them like it’s the only thing you need to do. You go and you read all of their books. You watch all their You Tube interviews. You ask them questions online if they can; if they can answer and identifying those people that you want to be gives you a vision for how you can prepare for yourself and to be honest success leaves clues right and you can actually; there’s no secret mystery to how Steve Jobs got to where he got or Richard Branson got to where he got or Warren Buffet got to he wanted.

You can actually study what they did and you can actually learn from what they did and you can choose to make the same decisions that they did and at the end of the day life is about sacrifices. It’s about choosing what you’re going to specialize in and in terms of books yeah so one of my favorite business guru’s is Jim Collins. He’s got two books that are my cornerstone for business which are “Good to Grade” and “Built to Last.”

Matthew: Oh yeah.

Michael: Those are my two favorite books. I love “Think and Grow Rich” by Napoleon Hill. An amazing personal development book. “How to Win Friends and Influence People.”

Matthew: Oh yeah that’s a great one too.

Michael: (41:40 unclear) that’s one of my favorite books. I’ve also; I like marketing myself it’s kind of like my area that I really, really enjoy. So another person I really admire is Simon Sinek. He’s got a fabulous couple books. Obviously Steve Jobs also is a known marketing hero. I think more than; I think there’s definitely not a one size fits all recipe for like let me find a book that’s going to change your life. I think that decision is very personal. I think you have to choose who you want to be and or who you’d like to be. What skills you’d like to have, what characteristics as a person you’d like to possess, and then figure out the books that match that in the long way and you’ll figure it out. That’s kind of what my philosophy is around books.

Matthew: Is there a tool web based or otherwise that you consider indispensable to your everyday business or productivity?

Michael: Hmm interesting. Well internally in our company we use several productivity tools. I think probably amongst my favorite would be Slack.

Matthew: Okay.

Michael: Slack is an internal messaging tool for companies and you can very easily make groups and you can make channels. So you can have a marketing department channel group, you can have a sales department channel group, you can have a logistics channel group, you can have an everyone channel group. So I think Slack has been a really, really great tool to actually communicate internally with the company and it’s actually made I think my life much easier. That’s kind of one of my favorites right now for sure.

Matthew: What tool did Slack replace for you? Were you using something else and you transitioned to Slack?

Michael: That’s interesting.

Matthew: And you liked it better. I mean is it replacing instant Messenger or does it replace like a project management tool for you?

Michael: That’s really interesting because it’s like internally in the company we did not use a messaging service before Slack. So it’s kind of weird it’s like now I don’t see how I ran my company before without Slack you know.

Matthew: Okay so it’s in addition too it’s not a replacement.

Michael: It’s an addition. I mean I guess there are some competitors like Hip Chat is a competitor and we definitely used just email a lot so I think Slack replaces a lot of email definitely and we use Instant Message on the Iphone and what’s that but this was designed from the needs of a company inside and that’s been; and the product really shows for that.

Matthew: Well Michael as we close how can listeners find out more about Flow Kana online?

Michael: Okay so I mean there’s I guess the main source of information would be Also definitely look us up on Facebook. We are constantly putting out original content usually around the lifestyles of our farmers and the people that we work with. Showcasing a little bit about their life. So yeah I invite you guys to kind of follow us on Facebook and really just read about us online. I think that’s kind of the best way to kind of stay in touch.

Matthew: Michael best of luck on Flow Kana and thanks so much for coming on and educating us today. We appreciate it.

Michael: Thank you Matt. I really appreciate it and I look forward to working more in the future.

Matthew: If you enjoyed the show today, please consider leaving us a review on iTunes, Stitcher or whatever app you might be using to listen to the show. Every five star review helps us to bring the best guests to you. Learn more at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/itunes. What are the five disruptive trends that will impact the cannabis industry in the next five years? Find out with your free report at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/trends. Have a suggestion for an awesome guest on www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com, simply send us an email at feedback(at) We would love to hear from you.

Please do not take any information from CannaInsider or its guests as medical advice. Contact your licensed physician before taking cannabis or using it for medical treatments. Lastly the host or guests on CannaInsider may or may not invest in the companies or entrepreneurs profiled on the show. Please consult your licensed financial advisor before making any investment decisions. Final disclosure to see if you’re still paying attention. This little whistle jingle you’re listening to will get stuck in your head for the rest of the day. Thanks for listening and look for another CannaInsider episode soon. Take care. Bye-bye.

Michael Steinmetz is the founder of Flow Kana. Flow Kana is looking to be the Whole Foods of the cannabis market.  Learn why cannabis enthusiasts are increasingly wanting to know where their cannabis comes from, who grew it, and under what conditions. Imagine being able to communicate with the grower of your cannabis to ask questions, with Flow Kana you can.

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Key Takeaways:
[1:29] – Michael’s background and how he got into the cannabis space
[3:52] – Michael talks about what life was life in Venezuela
[10:44] – What is Flow Kana
[14:13] – Michael talks about the response to Flow Kana
[16:16] – Flow Kana’s packaging
[20:12] – The characteristics of the growers
[23:02] – The cost of Flow Kana compared to medium grade flower
[25:30] – Michael talks about Flow Kana app and ordering experience
[28:28] – Popular Flower strains
[32:05] – Where Flow Kana is going in the next couple of years
[33:48] – The difficulties in starting a business like Flow Kana
[37:10] – Michael talks about how he pitches to dispensaries
[38:59] – Michael’s book and tool recommendations
[44:14] – Contact details for Flow Kana

What are the 5 Trends That will Disrupt The Cannabis Industry?
Find out with your free report here:

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The Five Disruptive Trends Shaping The Cannabis Industry Now

Winning Cannabis Licenses Around The World – Michael Mayes

michael mayes quantum 9

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Matthew: Hi. I’m Matthew Kind. Every Monday and Wednesday look for a fresh new episode where I will take you behind the scenes and interview the insiders that are shaping the rapidly evolving cannabis industry. Learn more at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com. That’s www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com. We’ve talked about CBD or cannabidiol on the show many times. Just to review thought, CBD is a non-psychoactive compound from the cannabis or hemp plant that has many benefits. Now our friends at Treatables have put together a one list chew that can help your dog or cat become more calm and balanced. Valerie wrote in to tell us about her experience with Treatables.

Valerie writes, “My ten year old Husky/Sheppard/Lab mix Chuck is my faithful companion. Chuck got significantly quantifiably better from using Treatables. It took about three days of feeding Chuck two to three doses a day to see the full effect, but he did get noticeably more comfortable on the first day of feeding that to him. Before CBD Chuck limped and couldn’t enjoy longer walks though he clearly had the desire for them. Once he started taking them he could leap around again.” Thanks for writing in Valerie. Treatable Chews are legal and available in all 50 states right now. If you want to learn about what Treatables can do for your pet, visit www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/pet and get a coupon code for 10% off your order. Once again that url is www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/pet now here’s your program.

While we tend to focus a lot on the North American cannabis market the rest of the world is also relaxing their prohibition stance on cannabis. Here to give us a perspective on the North American and international markets is Michael Mayes, CEO of Quantum 9. Michael welcome to CannaInsider.

Michael: Thank you and thank you for having me Matt.

Matthew: Michael to give us a sense of geography can you tell us where you are in the world today?

Michael: Yes. Currently I’m in Chicago, Illinois but we practice internationally so it’s rare for me to be in my home city but it’s nice being home.

Matthew: Michael what is Quantum 9?

Michael: Quantum 9 is an international cannabis consulting firm.

Matthew: Okay and what services does Quantum 9 offer?

Michael: Sure. We primarily are focusing on the licensing realm of cannabis consulting. So basically what we do is we work with high net worth individuals, private equity firms, and investors to obtain licenses in existing or emerging states or countries. So currently we’ve practiced in about ten countries and the experience has been amazing.

Matthew: Now how do you just jump on the scene and create an international cannabis consulting firm? I mean what was the evolution here? What were you doing before that and how did you get this started?

Michael: Sure. Well I first started as an investor in 2009 in Colorado’s first for profit medical marijuana market. Somebody back from Michigan where I’m originally from asked me to join a venture to go after some licenses in Colorado. We started with a basement operation and then expanded that to; we raised a million dollars in 2009 to obtain a 15,000 square foot cultivation center and all of the equipment inside of it. We grew that company to a 90,000 square foot cultivation center and two retail dispensaries. That operation is actually called Good Meds in Colorado and from that we found an incredible need for standard operating procedures, good manufacturing processes, the evolution of the quality assurance and FDA standards in recent and as a result we started helping other businesses with some of their best practices within the facility and then we were offered to do some licensing for a client and we had no interest at all in doing document writing work at all especially for the government.

But they made us an offer that we couldn’t refuse and now we’re doing licensing work all over the United States and around the world. We’ve done about 24 projects to date of which we’ve been successful with 22 of them so we’re boasting a 91.6 percent success rate currently which is very high within the industry.

Matthew: Wow that is a very high success rate congratulations on that.

Michael: Thank you very much. It’s a ton of work and we have a full team of consultants. We have around 35 consultants right now that practice in this arena from different facets from quality assurance to security; you name it and all of that heavy lifting is done by them guys. I’m just the guy at the front end of things.

Matthew: Yeah. I’ve seen some of the paperwork and detail that’s required to apply for a cannabis license and it’s just shocking how much there is. Its binders and its interpreting language from governments and municipalities. I mean it’s really quite intense. For people that aren’t familiar do you want to just talk about that a little bit?

Michael: Sure. Not only do you have to submit five years of audited financials for each one of the members and each state is a little bit different. In some states it’s five to twenty-five percent. Ones that have that amount of equity need to provide that information but for the most part it’s mostly everyone like in a market like Pennsylvania everyone has to submit their financials and so forth and that’s basically for the government to understand that the money isn’t coming from ill sources and so forth. But besides that they’re looking for a very stringent business plan of exactly how you plan to execute upon awarded the license. So not only do you need to submit construction diagrams, schematics designs, and project plans but you also need to show exactly how and what documents will govern each process from record keeping to the standard operating procedures to how security will be handled. The state’s looking for groups that have a very good handle on that and also an expansive executive team that can really take the plan from start to fruition.

Matthew: Now you tend to have a more international focus than a lot of consultants in this space. Can you take us around the world and tell us where you see the most opportunity and what markets are starting to open up?

Michael: Sure definitely. So currently the United State and Canada so North America have had the biggest pushes in growth but we’re starting to see a lot more countries around the world start to come online from Germany, Columbia, Puerto Rico if you count that. It’s a U.S. territory but Guam is coming online soon which is another U.S. territory, Uruguay, Australia, Jamaica. I mean the list goes on and we’re only going to see that legalization needle move forward. In recent full legalization is usually a second step behind medical and before that is usually some type of decriminalization. So it follows a pretty straight process from decriminalization to medical to adult use but some countries are going right to adult use or recreational right off the bat.

Matthew: Okay and is there a different flavor to what the governments care about and needs are from country to country where you’re like well I’m used to dealing with the United States and Canada and then I step into a different country and they have just a whole different perspective about what their concerned about and how they’re approaching it?

Michael: Absolutely. The markets differ greatly. Even between the United States and Canada they’re very different and then even from state to state they tend to differ. The Canadian market a lot of people may not know this but its 100 percent Ecommerce. So all cannabis is mail order in Canada today. Now there are compassionate clubs that are popping up all over Canada but some of them are; most all of them are illegal but they’re tolerated in different markets. In a country like Australia it’s much like the United States. It’s starting to; territory by territory it’s starting to come online so the northern and southern territories are online right now and it’s legal for medical purposes in Victorian’s new South Wales. Columbia just came out with a decree that was signed by Santos which allowed for manufacturing and exportation model. Legalization in Uruguay and Jamaica also and then in Spain you can actually consume cannabis in private areas but you can’t really acquire it legally.

So it’s such a stark difference from country to country and really what it takes is a consulting firm or people that are pro legalization to really educate the government as to the pros and cons. We actually did a project for the German Ministry in which it was heavily involved in kind of shaping the way the rules and regulations ran and it wasn’t necessarily like we told them exactly what to do. What we did is we gave them cause and effect. If you did this it would result in this and helping them understand what their decisions have on the impact of the industry in their country is very useful for them.

So what we do is we use our experience of what we’ve seen in other states and countries and then give them why a certain thing is good or bad. For instance in Germany they wanted to implement an nanogram limit so when you’re driving they can see if you were impaired or not based on an nanogram limit. Well we provided them with the Department of Transportation information from the United States showing them how that model is flawed.

Matthew: Okay interesting. How is it flawed?

Michael: The nanogram limit is kind of a Breathalyzer that’s used by a police officer once they’ve pulled you over. Unfortunately you can’t necessarily tell; it’s not a direct correlation from how impaired you are to what the nanogram meter is reading so it’s not conclusive evidence that because you have cannabis in your system that you’re impaired from it and tolerance is so gravely that someone may have had a sucker in their mouth for ten minutes and got in the car and drove. Well that would have been detrimental if a nanogram limit was implemented.

Matthew: Okay and are other countries anxious to avoid certain mistakes that we’ve made here in the U.S.? For example I look at New York and it’s a no flower market. Illinois there’s this fingerprint and background check. It’s kind of like they treat you like a criminal upfront and there’s these little spins that each state has taken that’s not ideal. Is there one thing that different countries say well let’s avoid this or what should we avoid Michael?

Michael: Sure. So Jamaica is a great example of that because as you may know Jamaican’s have been making a living off of cultivating cannabis for many, many years; decades and if you look at that from an agricultural perspective the last thing that you want legalization to do in any form whether it’s medical or adult use you don’t want disrupt the current culture of a country. So when we were doing some things with the German government or the Jamaican government you don’t want to take a privilege out of the hands of a community. So a lot of the suggestions that were made were to make sure that the individuals that were growing cannabis now that we’re making a living off of it were taken care of. So what we didn’t want to do is take that privilege out of the Jamaican’s hands and put it into private enterprise which would have not only crippled the country but it would’ve led to turmoil within the country.

Matthew: Yeah great points. You got to go; don’t swim against the stream of the culture or you’ll lose pretty much.

Michael: Yeah and if you think about it; I mean they’re just growing crops on their land and selling it as a trade and just because the United States says somethings illegal doesn’t necessarily result in them having to give away a way of their life.

Matthew: Yeah. Now you mentioned a little bit about your help that you provide with licensing but let’s dig into that a little bit more. The process is so in-depth. There’s so many parts to it and you’re not just competing with other people. You have to kind of go out there and not satisfy the requirements but exceed them, look at the tone of the requirements. Can you talk a little bit about that like how the lenses you use when you’re approaching helping a client win a license?

Michael: Sure. So the first thing that my entire team does is we read the bill as soon as it’s published and that’s just the first step. We found it effective to read it out loud together which makes everyone know and understand them and we can talk about them as different aspects of the rules are different from other states and then when the rules and regulations are published we do the same thing. We read them out loud and then chunk different areas into different protocols and procedures but that’s just a part of the SOP and GMP creation but one of the biggest aspects of any submission is the actual executive team that is going to be submitting. Your CEO, CFO, NCO are such important positions so you’re definitely going to want people that are prominent individuals in the state and also have the pedigree behind them to show the state that they have experience with heavily regulated industries such as the pharmaceutical industry, the food industry, and so forth.

From there there’s other key positions like security director, cultivation lead, extraction lead, somebody on the retail end so it’s pivotal to have seven or eight individuals that are very, very well rounded on the team so that the state can see that. So what we’re seeing more and more is less of a focus on the actual documents and more focus on the team that’s actually going to be managing the company.

Matthew: Are you an accredited investor looking to be part of some of the most sought after private cannabis investment opportunities? Get on our free private investment alert service at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/invest. Once you’ve subscribed to the investor alert service you will get access to curated opportunities that the public will simply never see. Again that URL is www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/invest. Now back to your program.

Matthew: Do companies or individuals that come to you looking to get into the space ever have unrealistic expectations in terms of what it takes to be successful?

Michael: I think that the unrealistic expectations usually lie within how much equity they’ll end up with and a great point of that would be when you first start the projects whether it’s a single individual or a couple individuals they’re splitting 100 percent equity. Either the individual has 100 percent of it or both of them have 50/50. The first thing that we do is start to set expectations in a realistic manner because if you need to raise ten million dollars for this project then a lot of the equity is going to go to the investors. So once we start to break them of having all of this equity it makes it a lot easier for us to do our job because equity can be traded for services, equity can be traded for funds, and that’s one of the biggest aspects of the submission process in general. Many states require two million dollars in escrow, 500 thousand dollars on cash for cultivation, and anywhere from 500 to 1.5 million for dispensing and 250 thousand in cash but the capital part is huge.

Matthew: Do you see Canada or other countries allowing meaningful imports of cannabis and how do you think that might change the dynamics of certain countries?

Michael: I think importation is huge. A dominant player right now in the Canadian market is Canopy Growth. They’ve set up a few big deals. One of their subsidiaries Tweed has set up some deals to send products to Med Can in Germany and that’s the first time that a major G7 country will allow the importation of medical marijuana from a country like cannabis and you can only get cannabis in German pharmacies but it’s a step in the right direction. Another giant player in the Canadian market is Tilray in British Columbia. They received permission in June to export cannabis to Croatia. Tilray is actually owned by Privateer in Seattle and they’re seeing that the exportation of cannabis may help the struggling Canadian market currently just because it’s just had such a slow maturation over the last couple of years. So by sending products to Croatia they may in the future be sending products to Australia as well.

Matthew: You have a famous cultivator on staff Ed Rosenthal. Listeners may have come across his videos on You Tube or know of him but can you give us a little background on what he does at Quantum 9 day to day.

Michael: Sure. Ed is one of my dear friends. He’s not only an instrumental figure in the cannabis movement but he’s been absolutely awesome on the Quantum 9 front. So Ed heads up a lot of the cultivation approaches. So best practices, what types of technologies and approaches, and he just really puts the entire cultivation aspect on a more scientific level. So our projects that involve Ed he plays many different facets but mostly around cultivation. So he’ll bring different types of greenhouse technologies, different types of automation to the table, and kind of helps reduce human error with the use of automation.

Matthew: When you’re looking at a facility design or dispensary design, cultivation design are there any best practices you can give us in what to do and what not to do to be successful?

Michael: Sure. So in your manufacturing which is cultivation and extraction there’s three really key things that you want to prepare yourself for. One is the environment, the second is the staff, and the third is the security. So from an environmental standpoint making sure that your rooms’ temperature and humidity’s are monitored with sensors that are redundant would be the first thing. The second thing would be automation and less human error. So whenever something can be done by a machine opposed to human hands there’s not only less error but there’s less opportunity for contamination. The third thing I would say is that the industry is starting to shift more towards greenhouse technologies which reduce overhead from an indoor facility by almost 30 percent. On the second level from a staffing perspective cleanliness is starting to see a huge impact within these facilities.

Our facilities we now designed where cultivators would actually have to go through a locker room first, change out of their street clothes, go through a shower, and then gown in their work clothes. What we’ve found is this actually gravely reduces the opportunity for pest and pathogens from outside of the facility to actually make it into the cultivation rooms and then the security is just based on state and federal requirements. As far as dispensaries go limited access is one of the most important aspects of the facility. Identifying where your most targeted and hot zones are from where your product is stored to where your cash is stored and really not being able to see things like cannabis from the public areas.

So what you want to do in a dispensary is just remove the ability to access the cannabis easily. So for instance not having a ton of product out on a corner and so forth and making sure that the only way you can get around to a counter would be through like a locked door and so forth.

Matthew: Okay great points. You mentioned you’re a Michigan native and you’re very close to that state. You don’t hear too much about it but the California, Colorado, Washington, and a lot of other states over shadow Michigan and at times it seems like it’s two steps forward, two steps back and it seems like it’s going to really get some traction and then it back peddles and then it goes forward again. Where are we in Michigan? Give us a little brief there and what the challenges and opportunities are there?

Michael: Sure. So a lot of people don’t know this but Michigan has the second highest patient population outside of California. California has a million. Michigan has 182 thousand based on a recent pro/con statistic. The dispensary model is still illegal statewide but different counties are allowing it. My family actually opened a dispensary in Lansing, Michigan called Greenwave. There are 87 other dispensaries in the city currently. They actually opened that when there was 67 of them. So the Michigan market is very dense but there being 87 dispensaries in a single city there’s a market to support that. So when people start to look at these different markets you can look back at Michigan and say wow there’s a huge market there but also there’s a thriving community there as well. So when you think of market saturation there’s always going to be a need and if a business is fulfilling that need they will be successful.

Matthew: Right. Go to where the patients are and just try to find a way to be a little bit better or different.

Michael: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matthew: Let’s switch over to investing for a second. You meet and know a lot of cannabis investors and you’re an investor yourself. One question I get every day from listeners is how do I raise money for my cannabis startup or dispensary? How do I find these investors? How do I get them to take my project seriously? Do you have any suggestions there you would offer listeners?

Michael: Absolutely. We provide cannabis investor services to help align investors with projects and projects with investors so it goes both ways. If you’re looking for funding the best advice that I can give is to create a very good plan. That would start with an executive summary. That would then mature to a business plan or perspective. Knowing your numbers and putting together a performa and then getting into an investor presentation where you can hand documents out to individuals and really helping an investor understand what their return on investment is, when they’re going to get their money back, and to what multiplier they’re going to make on their money is really what investors are interested in. All the other stuff is important but not as important as those factors. We’ve had the opportunity to work with many different investment arms as well so MGIC would be somewhere that I would definitely invest.

Get out there. Go to these conferences. Understand how the investment community works and then understand where all the pitfalls are too. So if you’re looking to fund a project there’s a couple things that you have to ask yourself. Number one what is your risk appetite? How aggressive do you want to be with your investment? There’s definitely aspects of investment where you can get very risky such as an operator of a cultivation, manufacturing, or dispensing facility and you tend to see very high returns on that money although it’s incredibly volatile or you can look into less volatile piece of the industry would be; which would be like an ancillary business like a technology company or a security company or an investment company.

But what you want to look at is what the requirements are by the state or country and sometimes a state will have residency requirements that may bar you from being directly involved. Now there’s many different ways of doing that but you definitely want to look to see what some of the restrictions are and as far as investment dollars go when you’re looking at these bigger projects from 100 to 250 thousand dollars would be probably the minimum of where companies are looking for investments from. When you’re getting into the 10 to 30 thousand dollar range it just isn’t as attractive for a project to take those funds in because more than likely they’re raising anywhere from two to ten million dollars. If they were taking in 30 thousand dollars as an investment they would have so many investors in that project it would just be a nightmare to manage and then you start running into SEC filing issues.

Matthew: Good points. Let’s pivot to some personal development questions. I like to ask guests to give listeners a sense of who they are. Is there a book that has had a big impact on your life that you would suggest to listeners?

Michael: Are you talking about cannabis or non cannabis?

Matthew: You know either one. One that’s just had a big impact on you that has maybe changed your way of thinking or helped your life go on a different path.

Michael: Okay. I’ll give you two. I’ll give you one from the industry and I’ll give you one from outside the industry.

Matthew: Great, perfect.

Michael: When I first started in 2009 I was a sponge for everything cannabis. I probably bought four or five cannabis books, read them cover to cover but it wasn’t until I read Ed’s book the “Marijuana Growers Handbook” where I really started to get a sense of everything from start to finish. It was the most conclusive book out there and I would definitely recommend it to your listeners. Outside of the industry I’d have to say Christopher Moore’s book “Lamb” is one of the funniest books I’ve ever read in my life. So funny that in Chicago a lot of people do public transit and so forth. I used to take the train to work every day and I would read this book with headphones on and I would laugh so loud that I could see people in the car watching me and it was quite embarrassing but definitely for a more fictional book it would be Lamb. It’s a story of Jesus during that time in the bible where nothing is recorded about him. So basically in his late teens and his early 20’s and it’s told by his rastafarian friend Biff. So it’s incredibly funny.

Matthew: That is an unusual premise I got to say.

Michael: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matthew: How about is there a tool web based or otherwise that you consider indispensable to your day to day productivity that you would recommend?

Michael: Okay yeah I can give you two.

Matthew: Oh neat.

Michael: The first is Grammarly; It has changed the way I’ve done business and what it is it’s a grammatical score checker of your writing. So you can put a paragraph in there and it will spit you back out a score but it will also tell you exactly how to change your writing so that you don’t use passive voice. There’s no split infinities in there, dangling modifiers. I mean there’s phrases that I didn’t even know existed in grammar and you can change the style of writing from business to creative but essentially what it does is it allows you to add all your grammatical errors and basically rid yourself of them. Why this is important is for a couple reasons. Number one when you’re writing thousands of pages of documents to a government proof reading is absolutely important and is a way in which the government can judge you based on your level of experience and your level of execution.

So having grammatical errors from my aspect of it; getting vendors that send me emails all the time. If I see a grammatical error within an email or document I actually think less of the individual that produced that piece of writing. So now it’s required that all emails that go out from Quantum 9 and all types of writing, blog posts and all of them go through Grammerly first.

Matthew: Wow that’s an awesome tool.

Michael: Mm-hmm (affirmative). The second I would say would be the Google stack like Google Drive and Google Docs; especially Google Docs. For us we have collaborations all around the world and we are many times working on the same document. So let’s say that I had a cultivation document that I had four authors all working on the same time. Now there’s a tremendous lag time when one individual is working on it and then sends it to another individual and then they work on it and then send it to another individual or worse is that one person’s working on it and the other person’s working on it as well and they’re overlapping what they’re writing and then they both send it to me and then I have to decipher what was changed, what is better, and then how to integrate both people’s writing. It became a nightmare. So what we did is we started using Google Docs and you can edit in real time. You can actually see someone else’s cursor writing words while you’re three lines down writing other things. So without that it would be a disaster. It’s the only way that we could effectively get all of our contributors to collaborate on a document at the same time. It does require you to have Google Chrome and the most updated version of it but pass some of the technological issues that you may derive from just getting it set up for the first time it pays incredible dividends in the months to come when you’re working on a document together.

Matthew: Great point. I mean I use Google Drive as well and particularly Google Spreadsheets and I’m working with multiple people on there and it’s just a game changer because you can see their name even like he’s altering this cell and it’s changing all your assumptions on the fly. You can see a revision history and I’ve had people say well can’t we just put this in Dropbox and share an Excel file and it’s just like you can but it’s still not as good because it’s not synchronized. It’s a synchronized. One person is putting it then you’re seeing update. We’re not all on the same sheet of music.

Michael: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matthew: So that’s a great suggestion and I hope we can actually bury the Microsoft Office Suite soon.

Michael: Yeah we’re getting there right?

Matthew: Yeah. Well Michael in closing how can listeners follow you and your team and learn more about Quantum 9?

Michael: Sure. You can go to our website. It’s Q-u-a-n-t-u-m the digit or

Matthew: Michael thanks so much for coming on CannaInsider today we really appreciate it.

Michael: Thank you so much Matt for the opportunity.

Matthew: If you enjoyed the show today, please consider leaving us a review on iTunes, Stitcher or whatever app you might be using to listen to the show. Every five star review helps us to bring the best guests to you. Learn more at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/itunes. What are the five disruptive trends that will impact the cannabis industry in the next five years? Find out with your free report at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/trends. Have a suggestion for an awesome guest on www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com, simply send us an email at feedback(at) We would love to hear from you.

Please do not take any information from CannaInsider or its guests as medical advice. Contact your licensed physician before taking cannabis or using it for medical treatments. Lastly the host or guests on CannaInsider may or may not invest in the companies or entrepreneurs profiled on the show. Please consult your licensed financial advisor before making any investment decisions. Final disclosure to see if you’re still paying attention. This little whistle jingle you’re listening to will get stuck in your head for the rest of the day. Thanks for listening and look for another CannaInsider episode soon. Take care. Bye-bye.

Michael Mayes is the founder of Quantum9 a firm that specializes in helping clients win cannabis cultivation licenses around the world. They have an impressive track record of success in winning licenses.

Listen in as Michael talks about how to craft a winning cannabis license application and just as importantly what to avoid when submitting an application.

Learn more at:

Key Takeaways:
[2:02] – What is Quantum 9
[2:40] – Evolution of starting a cannabis consulting firm
[4:57] – The paperwork required to get a cannabis license
[6:18] – International cannabis markets
[10:08] – What is a nanograms limit
[11:26] – Lessons other countries have learned from the US and Canada
[13:31] – Michael gives and example of winning a license
[16:04] – Unrealistic expectations in the cannabis space
[17:29] – Canada and other countries maybe allowing imports of cannabis
[18:47] – Ed Rosenthal’s role at Quantum 9
[19:55] – Best practices in design
[24:07] – Michael’s suggestions for finding investors
[27:18] – Michael’s book and web tool recommendations
[33:14] – Contact details for Quantum 9

Important Update:
What are the five trends that will disrupt the cannabis market in the next five years?Find out with your free guide at:

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The Five Disruptive Trends Shaping The Cannabis Industry Now

The Infused Products Accelerator with Patrick O’Malley

patrick o'malley good life colorado

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Matthew: Hi. I’m Matthew Kind. Every Monday look for a fresh new episode where I will take you behind the scenes and interview the insiders that are shaping the rapidly evolving cannabis industry. Learn more at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com. That’s www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com. We’ve talked about CBD or cannabidiol on the show many times. Just to review thought, CBD is a non-psychoactive compound from the cannabis or hemp plant that has many benefits. Now our friends at Treatables have put together a one list chew that can help your dog or cat become more calm and balanced. Valerie wrote in to tell us about her experience with Treatables.

Valerie writes, “My ten year old Husky/Sheppard/Lab mix Chuck is my faithful companion. Chuck got significantly quantifiably better from using Treatables. It took about three days of feeding Chuck two to three doses a day to see the full effect, but he did get noticeably more comfortable on the first day of feeding that to him. Before CBD Chuck limped and couldn’t enjoy longer walks though he clearly had the desire for them. Once he started taking them he could leap around again.” Thanks for writing in Valerie. Treatable Chews are legal and available in all 50 states right now. If you want to learn about what Treatables can do for your pet, visit www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/pet and get a coupon code for 10% off your order. Once again that url is www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/pet now here’s your program.

One of the interesting things that is happening to the cannabis industry as it grows is that it is segmenting or specializing to different branches of expertise. One of those branches is infused products. The problem for entrepreneurs trying to get into the infused products business is that it takes capital and also expertise in an ecosystem of relationships that new entrepreneurs may not have. That is why I’ve asked Patrick O’malley onto the show today to talk about infused products and his new accelerator for infused products called Good Life. Patrick, welcome to CannaInsider.

Patrick: Well Matt thanks for having me on your show today and before we get started I would just like to thank you on behalf of myself and all your listeners because speaking for myself, CannaInsider is a great resource. I definitely learn something new in every podcast.

Matthew: Oh thank you. Thank you. Well Patrick to give listeners a sense of geography can you tell us a little bit about where you are in the world today?

Patrick: I’m in Denver at the Good Life Colorado Manufacturing Facility.

Matthew: Oh good. And before we dive into what Good Life is can you tell us a little bit about your background and how you came to start Good Life and your background before cannabis entirely?

Patrick: Sure well it’s not a particularly exciting creation story unfortunately, but going way back during law school I created a law school test prep company and expanded it nationwide and that was a great business for many many years but then unfortunately for me law school applications plummeted, but fortunately for me it was then late 2013 and it looked like regulated marijuana was probably here to stay. So the time was right and Denver is certainly the Silicon Valley of marijuana so it’s the right time, the right place and now I needed the right niche where I could add some real value. So taking a page out of the tech industry playbook, I decided that a marijuana brand accelerator was a great niche to fill.

Matthew: Yes and there’s other accelerators out there in the cannabis space. CanopyBoulder being probably the biggest and most well-known and we’ve had Patrick Rea and Micah Tapman on the show before but your accelerator is a little different. Can you go into what Good Life and perhaps how it’s different than other accelerators out there?

Patrick: Sure. Well the term accelerator is sort of a vague term. It means different things to different folks. So what I can say I do know the Canopy guys quite well. I certainly go to a lot of their cocktail parties and currently the primary difference is that Good Life companies touch the plant and Canopy companies do not touch the plant. I have spoke with Micah and they’re starting to rethink that position, but I don’t know where they are with that right now. On an operational level they have a great system to foster new concept stage firms that are usually geared towards providing the B2B goods and services that the industry is going to need.

On the flip side or different than that is Good Life firms are going to typically be the ones creating tomorrow’s consumer marijuana brands which are the B2C brands like you will be seeing on the shelves at your local dispensary. Further on an operational level Canopy follows the model of Y Combinator and Techstars. They bring I their classes twice a year for kind of like a semester and then they graduate them. Whereas Good Life is much less structured. Each deal is really quite different.

Matthew: Okay. What are some of the pain points you are seeing in the cannabis industry that give you the aha moment to start Good Life where you felt like hey this is something, a niche I really need to fill?

Patrick: Sure well pain points (5.21 unclear). The reason why is this is a big new industry with no established players. Just how big, well a lot of us know the numbers but it’s good to put the context in. The domestic, what I call THC, market, if you will, is still largely legal yet even so it’s still a $40 to $50 billion market which is the same size as the coffee industry from everything from Sanka to Starbucks. Now when you look at it more broadly at all the cannabis applications, the nutriceuticals, the pharmaceuticals, the food supplements, hemp products etc., very plausible arguments for a $200 billion ecosystem which by the way is pretty much the exact same size as the alcohol industry.

So this entire $200 billion ecosystem has to be built from scratch and fortunes are going to be made by folks in all of the sub industries simply by eliminating various pain points. Now for example I spoke to a grower who spends approximately $200 per pound to hand trim his buds. He doesn’t use trimming machines because he feels that those machines damage the buds. The thing is $200 a pound is an extraordinary amount of money, but the thing is lumber mills figured out long ago how to get the most value out of any given tree with minimal human involvement. There’s some mechanical genius, maybe it’s even one of your listeners, who is currently or will design a process or machine that yields hand trimmed quality for a fraction of the price, and that guy or gal well they’re simply going to be printing money, and that’s the kind of person I want to talk to for Good Life.

I’ll give you another example. In 2009 there was this particular, popular type of concentrate that was being sold in Colorado, but then the regulations changed and you could no longer use the necessary solvent, but now I’m working with an outfit that they figured out how to make this special concentrate using compliant methods. So once they scale up and execute, they basically have a virtually guaranteed market share. So maybe not a sure thing, but about as close as you can get. Then there’s those other pain points being solved. Probably the biggest one being the Canna Quitter problem as we’ve started to call it, and Canna Quitters simply put are the biggest pain point for the entire industry and the companies that successfully chip away at that very difficult issue are going to be very well rewarded.

Matthew: Yeah you mean people that try cannabis and then have an experience that’s not perfect or optimal and they’re like I don’t want to do this anymore. It’s like how to bring them back so that they have good experiences. Is that what you mean?

Patrick: Yeah, yeah. It’s gets more involved than that, but that is certainly the start of the issue.

Matthew: Okay. Now you’ve kind of used a little lean startup techniques and methodologies for trying out little products cheaply and quickly with dispensaries. Can you talk a little bit about how you think about that and what you do there to kind of see what they want and what they don’t want?

Patrick: Sure. Well before I open the doors of the accelerator I developed a few products. Certainly wanted to see if they would be breakaway successes, but it was also a learning process in order to learn the realities of selling into this particular market because I didn’t have that experience personally. Although I personally love and still love using these products that I made, mostly focused on unique delivery systems, and I’ve certainly have continued forward using the elements of some of what I’ve learned on those projects. But what I found when I put it up against the marketplace is that these products were simply not the right product for this market.

One part of my job is helping entrepreneurs, actually a big part of my job, is helping entrepreneurs understand that having a great product that you personally like to use is just the starting point. It also needs the right product market fit. It needs to be easy to explain and understand. It needs to be easy to productize, to manufacture at scale and finally to merchandise.

Matthew: Right. Right. It helps too if the target prospect has the market segment in their mind. So if you’re making a new kind of dugout, well everybody kind of understands what a dugout is.

Patrick: Surprisingly not actually. We had a lot of balneal bud tenders that gave us a blank stare when us 40 year old guys showed them disposable dugouts. They didn’t know what they were.

Matthew: Okay. Now I agree with you. I think the cannabis market is going to chip away and kind of cannibalize the alcohol industry to an extent, but why do you think that’s going to happen and do you see it happening already in perhaps Denver when you talk to other people?

Patrick: Yes. That’s an interesting question that spans a few different issues. Certainly there’s always the middle aged person like myself. The term I use is soccer dad. It’s not just the moms that take the kids to soccer trust me, or maybe the hockey dads because that sounds cooler. Yeah a little tougher. Us soccer dads as we get older, hit our middle age, alcohol becomes much harder to tolerate and cannabis much easier to tolerate. You don’t wake up with a hangover, but there’s even aspect of being on your personal wellness spectrum. I’m personally not a medical cannabis user but I would term squarely recreational but I had a pulled muscle a few days ago and it really hurt and it was going to be a couple days until I got into the doctor so guess what. I pulled out my cannabis and it wasn’t the cure all but it certainly helped a lot. So there’s definitely some aspects there that you’ll see the middle age market I think chip away at their alcohol usage and substitute alcohol for the various cannabis products.

Matthew: We talked a little bit about the millennials there. You’re a hockey dad. What other types of demographics do you see adopting cannabis and in what way?

Patrick: Well growing the marijuana market is definitely going to be a family project. It’s millennials, it’s soccer dads and now we’ve even got grandmas trying it for their health issues. Although the growth of the consumer base from these what I call canna returnees or even canna newbies may not quite yet be showing up on national polling data. I’m already seeing it and hearing it happening here. We’re about two and half years into legal adult use in Colorado and quite honestly most of the stigma has melted away. I’ve got these soccer dads or hockey dads that I’ve known for 15 years and they come and talk to me at the kids’ hockey games or at a church function or at a graduation party and these guys just like me, they used marijuana in college and maybe a little bit after, but then they quit smoking maybe 10 to 15 years ago. Usually they just got too busy with kids and jobs and a big component was losing their dealer. They weren’t going to bother to find a new dealer, and they certainly weren’t going to grow plants and maybe they didn’t even want to smoke. Today they, like me, can walk into a clean store and buy an edible or a pill or some other non-stigmatized THC delivery system and at least some of the growth we’ve seen in what I would term a “mature” market like Colorado is going to continue to come from these hockey dad canna returnees. Again for those reason I have mentioned about, alcohol being, well after all it’s a poison. It’s harder for your body to tolerate. Whereas marijuana fits the bill nicely for middle age people who need maybe a stress reliever kind of within their personal wellness spectrum.

Matthew: Do you have any concerns at all about big tobacco getting into the space and pulling the picnic blanket out from underneath the small guys?

Patrick: Well the very simple answer is nope, not at all. There’s more to it than that but basically I’ll double down on that statement. Big tobacco won’t touch marijuana with a ten foot pole even after full federal legalization, and lots of people disagree so why do I stake out this position. Well the short answer is there’s absolutely no business synergies to be had here. Here’s kind of the longer answer. First of all big tobacco doesn’t know how to compete in a free market. Barriers to entry have shielded them from new competitors for just decades and they haven’t even innovated their core product for generations. So they’re not nimble, the opposite.

Second of all, marijuana requires a totally unique manufacturing reality. Phillip Morris simply does not want to set up a factory in each state. Third thing is that marijuana is totally unique wholesale distribution system which is radically different in each state to boot. Altria, one of the large conglomerates, they like to work with very large distribution wholesalers. Altria does not like the idea of 50 states specific distribution arrangements. Then there’s also a fourth thing is just that marijuana has a totally unique retailing network. R.J. Reynolds knows how to sell into 7-11. R.J. Reynolds does not know how to sell into an industry where the largest retail chain has all of 15 stores.

Finally the fifth thing is it’s simply easier and safer for them to take their tride and true playbook and take their cash and go abroad. They would prefer to go to countries with young, newly affluent middle class that aspires to buy Western brand. Don’t get me wrong big tobacco always faces challenges in foreign markets, but these are challenges that they already know and they know how to deal with them. Now I will give myself one caveat there is let’s talk about small tobacco. Let’s say companies with a market cap of under a billion dollars. Well these companies can’t easily go abroad. So they certainly might take a stab at marijuana and actually have talked to at least one guy who tells me he’s the tenth largest tobacco distributor in the United States. He’s taking a stab at it, but he’s not an 800 pound gorilla that has all the advantages that come with massive scale. So that’s sort of my thesis on why big tobacco is going to avoid marijuana markets. There’s just nothing in it for them.

Matthew: Gosh I hope you’re right. That would be great.

Patrick: That would be great.

Matthew: Turning back to Good Life accelerator. Let’s walk through just what you see as a typical type of applicant and what you’ll be doing for them and what you’ll get out of it and what they’ll get out of it.

Patrick: Okay let’s break that out. Well let’s start with the applicants. What am I looking for in an applicant. Well I call myself a sweat equity venture capitalist, and just like any venture capitalist I look at the product and I look at the team but the emphasis is on the team because any VC will tell you that if the team isn’t good enough, it doesn’t matter how good the product is. So normally I expect to see a team of two or more people but that’s certainly not required. Now if somebody comes on board with me. I hate to say application accepted them. It makes it sound almost academic. This is a business transaction, but if somebody comes onboard with the Good Life accelerator, the big benefit for them is that they save a lot of time and they save a lot of money.

Conservatively, depending on your situation, Good Life might save them nine months and a half million dollars versus going out and getting their own facility and license. I tell all the candidates that there is no template, that if we take on a company that’s very early stage, then Good Life operates like an incubator, helps them flesh out their entire business model and product. If we take on a company that has most of their business case and product work done, then Good Life operates more like an accelerator to continue that growth. If a company has literally their entire product and business ecosystem built out, proven up, (18.18 unclear) dialed in, then Good Life has the potential of operating like a very simple co-packer simply to get their product manufactured and on the shelves. For most of these companies, not all of them but for most of them the ultimate goal is to build a product and a business that can be licensed multi-state.

Matthew: That is a huge help because you know just getting your trim extracted into oil and having a kitchen where you can make your edibles and things like that. Just hunting for all those individual components is timely, expensive and it just can be frustrating. So I can see that someone in particular making an infused product would benefit from this.

Patrick: Sure, sure. Yeah. No, I mean certainly it’s the time and it’s the money, but a lot of people don’t have hundreds of thousands of dollars to sink into the real estate which is a critical component license, but more importantly most people don’t want to wait a year in order to try to get their license, in order to get their product on the market.

Matthew: And are the terms just individually negotiated on a case by case basis or is there some template you use for people that are going to be in the incubator or the accelerator?

Patrick: Truly there is no template, and the reason why is Good Life adds value in different ways for different companies so everybody needs a customized deal. Now maybe it’s a well funded group and maybe they have a new oil processing technology, but it’s still too early for anybody to assess if it’s truly valuable technology. So maybe they make a straight cash payment for Good Life’s services for a few months until they reach a technical milestone and then we reassess. On the flip side maybe a group has no funding at all but I see a lot of promise so I might offer them a straight equity deal with obviously the more time and resources I provide the more equity I would require. Of course we can do hybrid deals, but the one thing that I always build into every deal is something to ensure that we all have the same goal which is to make this new company worth as much as we can and as fast as we can. We really definitely want to align those goals.

Matthew: Now in terms of would not be an attractive applicant, is that someone that just wants to create kind of a me too product with no unique selling proposition?

Patrick: That’s about as accurate as you can state it, yeah.

Matthew: Okay. Do you see a lot of those coming to market where it’s like hey I want to make a chocolate bar and if you just say hey try something unique, what do you a say to someone like that?

Patrick: Well thankfully no I haven’t had to have that conversation very often which was a pleasant surprise. I was worried that exactly that would happen, but it’s a function of two things. Certainly there are people out there who are developing brownies, don’t get me wrong, but there’s so much white space in this market that I can be talking to this person about their special kind of concentration, this person about their extraction technology, this person about their CBD bath bombs. We’re building an entire ecosystem of consumer product good here or consumer packaged goods. So there’s more than enough white space for everybody to fill their own little niches and sub-niches.

Matthew: Okay. And have anybody gone through Good Life to date?

Patrick: Well it’s not brand, brand new but it’s fairly new, but we do have one early success story. Last fall I started working very intensively with Choose Corp which created the…

Matthew: Sure, sure we’ve had them on the show.

Patrick: Actually a couple months ago. It was a good interview and I embedded very deep into that company because I knew that they had really a game changing product. So that was an all hands on deck sort of situation. So I basically for about six months just delayed seeking new candidates because I didn’t have enough bandwidth. Now Choose has products on store shelves as of about a week ago and they’re raising an investment round which now affords me the opportunity to do it all over again with the next transformative company, but I’m definitely staying close to Choose and I’m serving as their general council so I won’t be leaving them any time too soon.

Matthew: What a unique opportunity with Choose because essentially their hemp terpene puck is legal in 50 states since the THC is so low but they say use it with your own cannabis and then you can kind of custom craft your mood. That’s a very unique and also easy way to get out to market. So I can see why you were interested in (23.10 unclear). There’s definitely a value proposition there.

Patrick: Yeah no it’s an interesting product and for me as an attorney it had all sorts of interesting legal implications and ways to sidestep, not sidestep the rules, the rules simply didn’t apply so that one as I said I had to embed pretty deeply because they had a lot more legal questions and paraphernalia type questions than a typical company would face so it was an interesting challenge.

Matthew: Do you take outside investment at all Good Life?

Patrick: Well the short answer is no. As any of your listeners who have tried to raise funds know, chasing investment dollars is truly a full time job, and so although I could probably find great ways to deploy outside investment, I frankly don’t have the bandwidth to do the whole dog and pony show I’d need to do to chase those investor dollars and quite frankly I’ve deliberately set it up so I don’t need other people’s money. No, obviously if one of your listeners is investing in the industry and agrees that I’m really on to something big with this accelerator approach, then sure I would love to hear from them, but it’s certainly not my focus.

Matthew: Okay and how can they reach out to you if they want to about that?

Patrick: Sure well they can just visit the website and I certainly look forward to hearing from your listeners who have the next big thing.

Matthew: Yeah me too. I would love to have you back on the show after you get some more people to go through the program since we had Charles from Lucid Mood on, I would like to see it because these are definitely interesting times and this definitely a bow wave of the industry seeing how things unfold. I mean I don’t know of anybody else really doing things like this. So this is Kudos to you for going after it.

Patrick: As I said, there’s plenty of white space and plenty of sub-niches that need to be filled.

Matthew: Let’s pivot to some personal development questions. As you look over the arc of your life is there a book that has had an outsize impact on your life that you would like to share with CannaInsider listeners?

Patrick: Well actually even better I’ll give you two.

Matthew: Two, alright.

Patrick: Yes bonus day. So the first one is Swim With the Sharks Without Being Eaten Alive and that’s by Harvey McKay. Old, old book, decades old. It has simple anecdotes from the frontline of business, and most business books pretend to be scientific but let’s be honest, business isn’t science. Business is subject matter expertise plus business best practices plus human interactions. So that’s why I like that book.

I also have a second industry specific book recommendation which is the Cannabis Manifesto by Steve Deangelo who I’m sure you’ve interviewed more than once, but Steve makes the point that marijuana is not really clear cut medical or rec. Instead marijuana can play a role in everybody’s wellness spectrum. It might be one person’s anti-seizure treatment of last resort. It might be another person’s way to just simply have fun and unwind, and we all fall somewhere on this health/wellness/recreation spectrum. What I liked about the Cannabis Manifesto is it really clarified that issue for me.

Matthew: Is there a tool, web based or otherwise, that you consider indispensible to your day to day life that you would recommend?

Patrick: I don’t really. I just use all the standard technologies so I’m about as boring as that gets.

Matthew: Okay that’s fine. I still sometimes just kind of go to the little pen and paper, little book. I do have one, a little one that can fit in wallet that I find is kind of my go to when I’m in a pinch that has really been helpful for me because I always forget to bring a notebook with me on the go, but I have a credit card size one in my wallet. I’m finding that one is not very tech savy but kind of my go to lately.

Patrick: You can’t forget where you filed it. Actually I use my Gmail to keep all my notes because that’s one place that’s my inbox and where I make my notes and where everybody contacts me. So I guess I live in my email box.

Matthew: So Patrick I understand you have a pop quiz for me. Do you want to tell me what that is and what I’m about to be quizzed about?

Patrick: Well basically the quiz is about why the cannabis market will look a lot like the alcohol market. So if you’re willing to take a pop quiz, we’ll walk through that and see what you think.

Matthew: Sure let’s do it.

Patrick: Okay well what’s the largest domestic US fast food chain?

Matthew: McDonalds.

Patrick: Yeah 14,000 units. I did have to look that up. I don’t know these things off the top of my head. So what’s the largest coffee shop chain?

Matthew: Dunkin Donuts.

Patrick: Oh come on.

Matthew: Starbucks. I thought it was a trick question.

Patrick: That was not the trick question. Here’s the trick question. What’s the largest full service liquor retailer? You’re right, there isn’t one.

Matthew: Yeah.

Patrick: So you got two out of three. Why are there no large alcohol retailers? Simple, prohibition. Post prohibition each state made its own rules that are still with us 83 years later and each state made its own rules. That’s already happening in marijuana regulation so it’s a forgoing conclusion that post prohibition marijuana will follow the same state by state path that alcohol took which is again a reason why big tobacco is going to be boxed out. But even though alcohol retailing and distribution are fragmented state by state industry, you can still find your favorite national brands in any liquor store you walk into. So in the same way that brands are the most valuable slice of the alcohol industry so they will be in marijuana, and that is the reason I want to own equity in many many different marijuana brands. When I say brands I don’t limit the accelerator solely to consumer facing brands. If you have a strong B2B product like that inexpensive, high quality trimmer, I want to talk to you, or if you have a novel product or device that saves money for infused product manufacturers, I definitely want to talk to you. You know I think it’s instructive to see that just like the brands are the most valuable segment of the alcohol ecosystem, so the same will be true for marijuana.

Matthew: Great points. Also the States have a huge incentive to keep a national policy from overreach because they can define the tax regimen that benefits them the most. Once they get that revenue they’re not likely to give it up easily.

Patrick: Yeah, no you might see an overarching federal tax, but you’re certainly not going to see the federal government even really that interested in taking over. The FDA will definitely want a say so that will be actually probably the multibillion dollar question is what role the FDA plays in post prohibition regulation, and that’s a total question mark in my mind, but the answer to that will certainly end up driving a lot of industry to develop in say ten years out from now.

Matthew: Gosh it’s just so crazy to think about how successful the propaganda was to demonize cannabis. I mean it was an unbelievable success that it’s almost even hard to contemplate it. It’s that newspaper baron from…

Patrick: Hearst.

Matthew: Yeah William Randolph Hearst and he owned all the newspapers and man did he get this deep deep into our psyche about why this plant was demonized, and I think it was just because he said, he gave a lot of reasons, but he said it was cannabis and hemp. First he conflated those two into one plant which is crazy, and then it was because he wanted the cotton I believe to be the kind of defacto for a lot of different commercial applications. He didn’t want hemp to get traction. I believe that’s right, but here we are decades and decades later trying to convince people that we shouldn’t (a) demonize hemp. There’s no psychoactive component at all and then now cannabis too, but it makes one wonder if that propaganda campaign was that successful, what else do we believe that’s simply totally untrue. What else in our society, it’s so deeply entrenched into generations that we believe is true but it’s not.

Patrick: Well that is actually a very good question, but I think the thing that I take away from that is that beware of the law of unintended consequences. How many millions of lives have been ruined simply because a very unpleasant billionaire of his time decided he had a problem with the plant. Maybe it was a commercial interest or maybe it was a morally driven campaign, but he certainly had some allies. But what I find actually interesting, Hearst is one example and Slinger, the former alcohol drink prohibition. I mean you can point to a couple of gentlemen over history, and I’ll use the word gentlemen sort of loosely, but you can look a couple of gentlemen over history and just through force of will and being absolutely rabid in pursuing a goal, bad goal in this case, but in pursuit of that goal they basically drove policy that lasted for generations, ruined millions of lives, stifled entire industries. We’re only just now bringing back hemp as an industry after probably what three or four generations. So yeah although history sort of eventually finds its way, don’t underestimate the power of a single individual to radically alter the course of history for decades until it finally course corrects.

Matthew: Agreed and well said. Patrick as we close can you tell the listeners again how they can learn more about Good Life accelerator and connect with you?

Patrick: Sure thing. I would be happy to. The website is and those three words are separated by a dash or a hyphen. Again it’s and I look forward to hearing from your listeners who have the next big thing.

Matthew: Great. Patrick thanks so much for coming on CannaInsider. We really appreciate it and good luck to you.

Patrick: Thank you.

Matthew: If you enjoyed the show today, please consider leaving us a review on iTunes, Stitcher or whatever app you might be using to listen to the show. Every five star review helps us to bring the best guests to you. Learn more at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/itunes. What are the five disruptive trends that will impact the cannabis industry in the next five years? Find out with your free report at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/trends. Have a suggestion for an awesome guest on www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com, simply send us an email at feedback(at) We would love to hear from you.

Please do not take any information from CannaInsider or its guests as medical advice. Contact your licensed physician before taking cannabis or using it for medical treatments. Lastly the host or guests on CannaInsider may or may not invest in the companies or entrepreneurs profiled on the show. Please consult your licensed financial advisor before making any investment decisions. Final disclosure to see if you’re still paying attention. This little whistle jingle you’re listening to will get stuck in your head for the rest of the day. Thanks for listening and look for another CannaInsider episode soon. Take care. Bye-bye.

Patrick O’Malley takes his experience as a cannabis-focused entrepreneur and founded an infused products accelerator called Good Life. Discover what infused products companies need to succeed.

Key Takeaways:
[2:42] – Patrick talks about his background
[3:51] – What is Good Life
[8:34] – Patrick talks about startup methodologies and techniques
[10:25] – The cannabis industry is going to chip away at the alcohol industry
[11:52] – What demographics are adopting cannabis
[13:47] – Patrick talks about big tobacco getting involved
[16:45] – Good Life typical applicant
[21:43] – Making it through Good Life
[23:47] – Does Good Life take outside investing
[25:49] – Patrick’s book recommendation
[28:03] – Pop Quiz for Matt
[34:15] – Contact details for Patrick and Good Life

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What are the five trends that will disrupt the cannabis market in the next five years?Find out with your free guide at:

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The Five Disruptive Trends Shaping The Cannabis Industry Now

High Times Cultivation Expert (Harry Resin) Shares Cannabis Growing Tips

harry resin cannabis high times

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Hi I’m Matthew Kind. Every Monday look for a fresh new episode where I’ll take you behind the scenes and interview the insiders that are shaping the rapidly evolving cannabis industry. Learn more at www(dot)cannainsider(dotcom. That’s www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com. We’ve talked about CBD or cannabidiol on the show many times. Just to review though CBD is a nonpsychoactive compound from the cannabis or hemp plant that has many benefits. Now our friends at Treatibles have put together a wellness CBD chew that can help your dog or cat become more calm and balanced. Valerie wrote in to tell us about her experience.

Valerie writes my ten year old Husky/Shepherd/Lab mix Chuck is my faithful companion. Chuck got significantly quantifiably better from using Treatibles. It took about three days of feeding Chuck two to three doses a day to see the full effect but he did get noticeably more comfortable on the first day of feeding them to him. Before CBD Chuck limped and couldn’t enjoy longer walks though he clearly had the desire for them. Once he started taking the CBD chews he could leap around again. Thanks for writing in Valerie. Treatibles are legal and available in all 50 states right now. If you want to learn more about what Treatibles can do for your pet visit www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/pet again that’s www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/pet. Now here’s your program.

Matthew: We are fortunate to have Harry Resin on the show today. Harry has a column in High Times Magazine that focuses on cannabis cultivation. Harry welcome to CannaInsider.

Harry: Hey Matt give thanks. I really appreciate you having me on here.

Matthew: Glad your here. To give listeners a sense of geography tell us where you are today?

Harry: I am in Nor Cal at the moment.

Matthew: Okay and I am in the beautiful Green Lake, Wisconsin so we’re a few miles apart but this sounds like we’re in the same room.

Harry: Yeah I know it’s amazing. The quality is fantastic.

Matthew: Can you tell us a little bit about your background? How you got into cannabis and how you came to write a column for High Times?

Harry: Sure. So I was fortunate enough to move to Amsterdam about 1999 and had the good pleasure of meeting some Americans that were if you will refugees from the drug war here in America that had I don’t want to say fled but that had left for greener pastures in Amsterdam. One of those was a very famous breeder named Soma and he kind of took me under his wing and through Soma I met someone named Ed Borg who was a photographer at the time for High Times and he was in the process of setting up a seed company which was called Delta 9 Labs and he was looking to live most of the year in Asia looking genetics and doing a bunch of breeding projects out there. So I happened to be in Amsterdam and we started to work together and one thing led to another and we had a seed company for about six or seven years together called Delta 9 Labs.

Matthew: Oh very interesting. What was that like living in Amsterdam during that time good memories?

Harry: Yeah it was the best. It was amazing. For me that vibe and all of us coming together and sharing knowledge. The beginning of things like overgrow and how the internet changed the spread of knowledge is in my belief really what led to the explosion and if you will the hundredth monkey phenomenon that’s happening right now where legalization or some form of medical allowance is spreading rapidly all over the world. The fact that Canada is now going to legalize it in 2017 is amazing.

Matthew: Yeah. It really is but we still have little bits like some government organizations that still just want to hold on to the way things were and you can see them throwing tantrums even though the wave is unstoppable at this point.

Harry: Yeah I think the same thing would have happened in prohibition times with liquor. You still would have had those holdouts that are like well no and it’s like well actually yes you lose.

Matthew: Yeah, yeah. Well what are you doing now apart from your column with High Times?

Harry: Well oh so to come back to how I started to write for High Times is in the process of us having the seed company we realized that there was a lot of information out there that was lacking and I got very lucky living in Europe to have met a lot of the publishers and a lot of the editors for all the different publications and just started to write for the different magazines and then High Times hired somebody named Nico Escondido who now needs no introduction. Because he’s pretty famous out there and when he first started he reached out to us and came to Amsterdam and we became friends and through that connection I started to write for High Times.

Matthew: Got it. Okay.

Harry: Yeah and so what am I doing today? I moved out to the Bay area to work on very intense marker assisted breeding project with in fact Nico Escondido and that’s something that we’ve been working on for the last two years under the auspices of CGI the Cannabis Genetics Institute.

Matthew: And tell us about that in a little more detail.

Harry: So fundamentally in the last ten years there’s been a lot of advances made on the marker assisted breeding side which basically means that through DNA sampling and various types of experiments a lot of the biologists today in commercial ag have found ways to use this new genetic profiling and this genetic information in an advanced sense of breeding. So what does that translate too? By looking for various markers in the plant so the plant works the same way a human does. It has chromosomes. Those combine and then on a DNA level there are various markers and those markers can be examined. So you could find markers for the sex of a plant and you could find markers for the color. Purple was one that was found and now they’re starting to look at the way in which cannabinoids are SEN phased meaning how does THC form? How does CBD form and what we’re able to look at is via certain ratios of cannabinoids we can get a sense as to the zygosity of a plant.

Meaning will the plant be heterozygos? Will it be homozygos dominant? Will it be homozygos recessive and from a breeding standpoint that will give us a more in depth view of the plant and a quicker path to get to an end result because we could test our leaves, we could look at different ratios now that will give us a bit of a head start on understanding how the plants will work when you combine them with other plants.

Matthew: Wow. That’s fascinating.

Harry: Yeah.

Matthew: Well let’s start with some cultivation questions. There’s a lot of people out there that would love to pick your brain on cultivation. So if you were helping someone, a friend or a client set up their first commercial indoor grow what advice would you give them and I don’t mean so much as the tacticals like blocking and tackling.

Harry: Sure.

Matthew: And play by play but more of the lens.

Harry: Over.

Matthew: This is how I as Harry look and approach a commercial grow.

Harry: So for me the first thing would be ask a lot of questions because here in California there is a very specific of regulations and guidelines and that’s the first thing. Does the location of the grow fit into the framework that is in place whatever that regulatory framework is depending on what state you’re in because the last thing you want to do is put a couple million into a project and then find out that the zoning isn’t right. So I would say that that’s absolutely the first thing. Learn the landscape of the land and know what you’re getting involved with and then from there really think about in terms of layout and construction really think about what works best based on the situation that you’re in. You get a lot of people that sort of want to build and go in and change but work with what you have. That’s what I tell people.

So if you have the ability to create metonym well create a metonym because you’re double your space in that location. If you can’t work in that location with a mezzanine but you have a huge parking lot well maybe you want to throw some hoops up or throw a little greenhouse in the parking lot out and have a little bench space that’s a sort of mixed like greenhouse space. So it’s really work with what you have and then once you actually get into the space I would then; I always recommend people using smaller chambers. So chambers with 25, 50 lights rather than blowup these huge 100 light spaces because it’s much easier to manage a smaller chamber than it is a huge 100 x 100 meter room filled with 150 lights. That’s always been my experience that better to create smaller spaces in a large cultivation site that you can manage. It just makes things much easier with regards to takedown plant counts.

Matthew: Harry are there any rookie mistakes you see in grows that could be easily avoided.

Harry: Yes absolutely. One of the biggest that I see especially in California is under air conditioning. So here it’s very common for people to build closed rooms which is basically a self contained grow room with CO2 added, air conditioned, and really sort of perfectly in tune environment but one of the biggest mistakes that I see is that people will often want to cut a corner and for whatever reason they’ll spend less money on their air conditioning when fundamentally that’s one of the most important aspects of room design. So I would definitely stress work with somebody that understands airflow, that understand BTU’s and cooling, and I’m not saying that you need to necessarily over cool your rooms because you don’t want to get a situation where your AC is short cycling meaning that it comes on and off very quickly because it’s too powerful but you definitely want to ensure that your rooms are cool enough because in California in some places it gets to be 110 degrees in the summer and a too hot room will always kill your plants.

Matthew: So let’s talk a little bit about airflow. How do you think about that? What’s important? I mean how do you approach it?

Harry: It really depends. In Holland we approached it from a completely different standpoint and I think that for the perfect room there needs to be a balance of both a closed sort of system as well as a system that makes use of air pressure. So to sort of further expand upon that in Holland we never really used air conditioners because the temperature was cool enough that if we vented the rooms enough using the right measurement of airflow so how much exhaust we needed to put out there versus how much heat was in the room for the lights and the CO2; all these different factors we would vent the rooms. Now that worked very well in a cooler climate. Now here in California that does not work so well. However the best rooms that I’ve seen made use of scientific clean rooms. So in scientific environments you have these clean rooms whereby you walk into one room that has over pressure which sort of blows on you, you put on a suit, and then you go into your other room which has under pressure.

So when you try to open the door in the grow room in Holland it’s hard to open the door because the pressure sucks that the door is suction closed and what you have is you have airflow going through the entire canopy of the plants. Here often people confuse airflow with wind. So you’ll come into rooms here that have all these fans and yeah that’s great and they’re circulating the cool air through the room but fundamentally the idea of pressure is not the same so if you went into a room in Holland and stood there and smoked a joint that smoke from the joint would throw itself through the room and you’d actually see the flow of smoke whereas here it’ll just get knocked around by the wind which is basically the fans. So I tell people look at the difference between wind and air pressure and that’s something that is often overlooked here in the states.

Matthew: Were people using greenhouses in Holland to grow cannabis when you were there?

Harry: They were as well but that was a little bit trickier because as most people don’t realize it’s still even to this day highly illegal. So in Holland you really had to be very careful to avoid detection. So fundamentally that was one of the things that prevented people from growing in greenhouses because it just was; there would be literally helicopters flying overhead. They were really looking for growers in Holland.

Matthew: Wow. Well now there’s less of a pressure in most states to avoid detection because it’s legal at least at the state level but there’s ordinances being created to curb the scent of cannabis because some neighbors don’t want their whole neighborhood to smell like it.

Harry: Yeah.

Matthew: Is there any suggestions you have there to keep the smell down?

Harry: Yeah. I mean I would work with can filters. Those in my experience have always been the best. And always over filter so you’re going to put filters in your grow room but then think if you’re sitting near your house and you’re a big heavy guy and you smoke a lot of weed your house is going to smell like weed. So put a filter in your house. A lot of people forget that the hallway in their grow sometimes might smell. Put a filter in it. Don’t be afraid to put filters to get rid of smell that’s why they’re there.

Matthew: Right. How do you look at nutrients and approach that when you’re trying to optimize your plants?

Harry: Truthfully with nutrients I’ve been very lucky because I’ve been working with advanced nutrients for probably about the last 15 or 16 years. When they first made a push into Europe my partner Ed and I at the time we were quite fortunate to be one of the first early adapters of the nutrient line in Europe because we knew the person that was importing it and then when I moved here again writing for High Times and working with Nico I got to meet big Mike and I really got to sort of get into the advanced line and yeah I’ve got to say I really like it. I know it’s expensive. I know people that potentially have their complaints about buying products that have a lot of water but if you look at the connoisseur A and B as far as a complete A and B nutrient it has one of the most well balanced formulas I’ve ever seen. There’s five or six things in there that normally you would have to buy separately from fulvic acid to humic acid and plus they have this PH perfect system which basically you add the A and the B and it completely PH’s the nutrient mix so you don’t really have to add a PH down. I just like it. It’s easy. It works for me.

Matthew: Okay and what are some of?

Harry: And personally the results are amazing that’s the other thing. You got to go with what you get and we’re getting almost two and a half pounds a 1,000 watt light. So we’re getting the yield and we’re getting the quality.

Matthew: Okay and let’s proactively kind of look at some of the complaints there or the possible concerns. You say that hey there’s too much water in it but it’s not really so much about the water as is it effective is what you’re saying.

Harry: What are the complaints that people will have with a lot of these nutrients is you’re getting a 23 liter container of nutrients where a large chunk of that is water. A mycorrhizal might only be 2% in which case actually 90% of that bottle is water. So people could argue well a powdered food or a food that contains the raw elements and that might just require RO water would be more cost efficient to ship. Just things like that from an environmental point of view.

Matthew: Okay and you mentioned PH earlier let’s talk a little bit about that. I mean most people remember their high school or elementary school discussions about PH and acid and base but they really don’t know how it fits in at a high level with cannabis. How do you think about PH?

Harry: PH is very, very important especially depending on what medium you’re using because with certain mediums the PH matters less with soil so like the real dirt (17:54 unclear) and peat moss and a mixture with lime. A really good solid heavy mix you almost never need to PH your nutrients because it’s always being buffered by the soil. However when you’re just working with rockwool you absolutely need to PH and be very on top of it because your rockwool is not buffering it. So it really depends on the medium you’re using but PH is very important and often under looked and basically what is PH? So it talks about the; well PH is a scale measuring alkalinity and acidity in something. So in this case it would be in your medium or in your nutrients. So as we know with humans anything that’s too acidic is not good for us, we actually want to be little bit higher in the alkaline range.

Now with cannabis you want to fluctuate your PH between around 5.7 and 6.2 and the reason for that is what PH is doing in cannabis is it largely dictates the type of electroconductivity in the medium so depending on how acidic it is versus how alkaline it is different nutrients will be uptaken at different pionts. So certain things will be taken in in the lower range between the 5.5 and the 5.6. Some of the micronutrients where as nitrogen is usually more taken in around the 5.9, 6 range so it really depends where you are on the spectrum of PH as to how your nutrients will be best absorbed into your plant.

Matthew: I follow you on Instagram and I saw in your feed that you’re using SmartBee controllers. Can you tell me what those are and why you use them and why they’re important?

Harry: Sure. No I’m glad that you bring those up. So the SmartBee controllers are a system that is in the next several years going to be even more valuable than it is right now because there’s all of these plugins that are coming. So fundamentally the SmartBee is a room monitoring system and controller. So it works a hub. That hub goes online. It allows you to access your room information from any type of cellular device or computer. It works via a web app and then you can also control things at the moment via what they call Stingers which are basically plugs that are controlled via these control units. So you could plug your humidifiers in and they now have a device that’s going to start working with the Gavita’s so you can plug your Gavita’s and control your lights.

You can work with a drip system. They have a very advanced moisture detection system that you can put in your medium and the moisture detection system can work with your drip system to ensure that if your plants ever dip below a certain moisture level the drip system will always kick on. It’s a phenomenal system. So basically in your room you have a monitor which is a light, temperature, humidity, and CO2 monitoring device so it gives you over the course of seven days a complete overview of how your room is looking from temperature to humidity, how your AC’s are working. So from my perspective it gives me an unbelievable look into my grow room over the course of a week, over the course of 2, 3 days I can narrow it down to 24 hours if I want and then on top of that it allows me to better control my humidifiers as an example, to control eventually my air conditioners, and the reasons that these systems are better is because if you look at lot of commercial dehumidifiers even though they might be very expensive the actual sensors inside are not that great. So there’s usually a very large differential with temperature or humidity whereas these units are very expensive and very precise. So as a result of that you get much better control through your devices.

Matthew: So pretty interesting there. It’s kind of like home automation for the grow room to make it kind of a parallel there.

Harry: Yeah a parallel to like a nest kind of thing.

Matthew: Yeah.

Harry: Absolutely.

Matthew: Okay and what do you see as kind of your biggest benefits when you’re using these SmartBee controllers? I haven’t heard of them so I’m interested in top of mind.

Harry: So many benefits.

Matthew: Okay.

Harry: So the first benefit is if your lights go out you get an immediate email from the system. So like short of you having just visual cameras and then you having to look every 10 or 15 minutes this actually tells you. So you don’t need to do that. How can we look at our cameras in our room and constantly know if the lights are working properly but this system will email you if it’s not. I look at it like an early warning system and in addition to that it makes understanding your rooms much easier. So if you look at your plant and you go into the room and say okay why is my plant a little bit yellow here? What’s happening here? You can really dial in your rooms not just from a nutrient point of view but from an environmental point of view of actually looking at potential flaws and why the environment might be fluctuating, why this one room might generate more powdery mildew? Maybe your humidity levels are fluctuating too much and your dehumidifier needs to be changed or the filters or broken on it any number of reasons so this system gives you a real in depth look at your room from a technical point of view.

Matthew: That’s great. So you’re monitoring all your variables.

Harry: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matthew: In one clean dashboard.

Harry: Yeah exactly.

Matthew: Okay. Well let’s talk about clones. First why do growers use them and second how do you make healthy clones? I’ve heard little tips from growers in the past where they say make sure to dip your scissors in alcohol before cutting a clone and there’s little things like that. I know there’s all kinds of knowledge that are wrapped up in people’s minds and we just never get to hear about clones so much. So tell us why you use clones if you do and how you use them in best practices and so forth?

Harry: So generally clones are easier to use because for the most part you know what you’re getting. There are some cases where you experience something called genetic drift which is basically where you have a mother plant and you keep taking clones from it and then over time those clones will be slightly lesser than the previous version.

Matthew: Okay.

Harry: That can happen but generally clones are very consistent. So I mean I’ve seen mother plants that have been kept for twenty years. Clones have taken off and the plants are just as robust. A lot of the OG’s back in the day were very old. You had some SFV’s that now are fifteen year old plants. Then in some cases people have kept moms for four or five years maybe even longer ten years. So clones are very important from that aspect to be able to have a closed system where your plants are growing, you have your moms, you can make your clones, you know your harvest cycles, you can put your clones into your rooms, you can veg them. It gives the grower a better control over all aspects of his system. You know what genetics you’re putting in, you know you’re yields are going to be there, you know how to work with the plants, you know what nutrients work best, so that’s fundamentally why people use clones because they like to keep things in a closed system especially also you don’t want to introduce pests and other diseases that might come in from bringing clones in.

So clones is a very easy way for a grower to start with and plus when you start with seed it takes a little bit longer because it will be about three weeks from the little seedling till you can take the clone of that and then you have to sex them out if they’re not feminized so it’s just much easier with a clone. You know what it is, you know that it’s female all the time, and you know what you’re going to get. Now as to making clones the one thing that’s very, very important that I can’t stress enough is a clean, sterile environment so that’s why as you mentioned people will clean your scissors. I recommend using razorblades for the final cut. So fundamentally what you’re doing is you’re taking a little shoot off of your mother plant and you’re looking to keep at least three internodes. Those are the tiny little points where the leaves connect to the main stem and you want the clone to be about 4 or 5 inches.

You generally clean it up. Take off the fan leaves and what’s very important is to make a clean cut at the bottom of it at a sort of 45 degree angle the way you would cut fresh flowers before you put them in a vase and then you want to dip it immediately into some type of rooting solution hormone gel because that will encapsulate the open plants tissue. Otherwise what could happen is an air bubble could get in there and it could develop yeah kind of like a human aneurysm where the air bubble gets into the plant and the plant will literally just die.

Matthew: So that 45 degree cut is that to provide more surface are for moisture and so forth or why a 45 degree angle?

Harry: It’s to increase surface area and to better have the roots form and to better have a closed sort of dip you know what I’m saying? That when you dip it into that hormone solution it really encapsulates that and at a 45 degree angle it just covers that surface area much better.

Matthew: Okay and if someone tries to not use a hormone solution and just like hey I’m going to throw this in this soil what can they expect?

Harry: Very little success rate but often you’ll still have some clones that will root but I would not recommend that.

Matthew: Okay. Anymore tips on grow room management?

Harry: Well just bear in mind that grow room management is basically another word for logistics and the best grow rooms I’ve seen are run by people that really understand logistics and understand management. Understand that you need to have a really good team around you and don’t be afraid to hire people. I mean obviously you have to trust the people but work with people. You can’t do everything yourself and that’s something that I often see where people don’t necessarily want to hire enough employees but fundamentally in any other industry you know that if you needed an employee you would hire an employee. So this is the same thing and the plant really needs care and attention so things can very quickly get overlooked.

Matthew: Let’s pivot to pests and diseases. What’s the best way to create an environment that really minimizes the opportunity for pests and diseases to take a foothold would you say?

Harry: Well so what I said earlier the best way is fundamentally to work with a clean room.

Matthew: Okay.

Harry: So every room is a clean room, every room you have your own Tyvek suit, your own suit to go into that room, you have shoe covers or your own specific shoes for that room. You want to track as minimal amount of spores or eggs or things from room to room. Often you’ll see growers that have three or four locations and they’ll literally come from one location and they won’t change their clothes, they won’t put on a jumpsuit, they’ll go right into another room. So yeah I see stuff getting spread all the time.

Matthew: What are the most common diseases and pests you see and if a cultivator is unfortunate enough to get some of those what’s the best mitigation plan?

Harry: So here the most common things that generally I’ve seen are spider mites and powdery mildew. Spider mites are the worst because often people are using environments that still have wood; wooden tables, wooden walls, wooden drywall well or not drywall but wooden walls or sheets or whatever people are using to build their rooms and I would definitely recommend avoiding as much wood as you can. Use things like FRP which is a plastic coating that kind of works like a wallpaper. You just glue it up to your walls and you can wash it down. Avoid, avoid wood because it literally is a nesting ground for mold spores and bugs and all kinds of nasty things.

Now if you do indeed get these I am really a proponent of organic or bioinsecticide type products which is bacteria’s; beneficial bacteria’s. Some examples of products would be Actinovate or Serenade which are products for powdery mildew that have beneficial bacteria in them and they work very well.

Matthew: I haven’t heard many people talk about the bacteria as a solution. I mean it’s usually some harsh chemical or sequestering the plants. Is this starting to take; has this been around for a while or is this starting to become more of the norm would you say?

Harry: It’s been around for a while and it is indeed starting to become more of a norm as people are testing stuff more and more and finding what’s it called myclobutanil which is one of the things in Eagle 20. You see a lot of these product recalls because of pesticides and different things that are being used. As we shift to a more and more conscious consumer who realizes that these pesticides are terrible for you and they don’t want them in their products we’re now starting to see that people are shifting more towards these bio type insecticides and one thing to bear in mind which came up at this quality control seminar that I was just at down in LA is what people also don’t realize is when it comes to making concentrates if you are using flowers or trim or anything that has been treated with any type of insecticide that is one of these really bad insecticides when you put it through a closed loop or if people are open blasting you’re basically concentrating that chemical into your concentrate.

So it’s really, really dangerous and really bad and people really need to be aware that if they’re going to spray any type of pesticide or any type of chemical that they should absolutely test their stuff before putting it in any type of concentrate.

Matthew: I know it’s hard to generalize but as you talk and work with people in different parts of the country how do you see that different regions are different? For example maybe even Amsterdam, Canada, the Eastern United States, Midwest, and then California. Is there any general perceptions you have on how each region differs and who’s kind of the thought leader there?

Harry: Yeah. I think largely what I noticed; the main thing is flavors. The flavors really fluctuate what people like based on region. So there was just a study that was done by one of the labs and they found that the limonene and the certain terps that are more common in different OG’s are more favored down in So Cal versus the alpha-pinenes and some other terps that are more in the different types of cookie strains that are more favored up north in Nor Cal.

Matthew: Hmm that’s interesting.

Harry: Bud that comes from Colorado is often a lot dryer because of the altitude. Yeah it really depends. I would say though the largest thing is flavor and the Colorado thing is rare because I mean all of Colorado for the most part is altitude. And then yeah flavor would be the main thing because if you look at Amsterdam some of the hazes that are more common there are less common here because people like the flavor more.

Matthew:. You recently wrote an article about natural dabbing. Can you tell us about that?

Harry: Sure. So of course as concentrates have become more and more established and more prolific so to speak well there’s been a divide in the concentrate community amongst solvent lists and solvent base. So now some of the solvent list ones they’re categorizing as well as CO2 extracted stuff and you have these Rotovaps making this clear distillate. I mean concentrates have really gone to the next level. So in that crowd you have the three sort of older, simplest techniques which to come back to when we started when I first moved to Amsterdam I started making bubble hash for the coffee shops because that was one of the newest more popular forms of hash. So natural dabbing solvent list types of concentrates would be things like Ice Wax which is a type of bubble hash just super, super refined and really dialed in.

Another type of solvent list hash would be dry-sift. People know it as Kief. But if you get down to 99.999% pure heads there’s a guy now who just moved recently to Oregon but he was based up in Seattle or up in Washington State rather. His name is Cuban grower. His dry-sift is amazing and he’s literally won maybe the last 10 solvent list concentrate cups because his stuff is just so amazing and it’s literally dry-sift but the best dry-sift I’ve ever seen.

Matthew: What’s closed loop extraction mean?

Harry: So a closed loop versus an open blasting type of system is when it comes to using solvents typically butane. So a closed loop system is a much safer way to extract the oil from the plant where basically the entire system is closed so at no given moment you have a room filled with a very volatile solvent such as butane and this is a system that’s been used yeah primarily in essential oil extraction for years. However when concentrates first hit the market and first started most people were open blasting which is a term used to describe just basically emptying a can of butane into a tube filled with plant material or bud and then fundamentally that tube would off gas. Now some people were smart enough to do it outside in the backyard. Other people unfortunately were not smart enough to do it outside and were doing it indoors.

Now when you fill a room without any type of ventilation with butane and someone lights a cigarette or someone turns on a light switch that has a spark or you turn up the dial on your heater or any of these things that has a spark I’ve seen it before the entire room will go up in flames and have a giant explosion.

Matthew: Wow. That would suck.

Harry: Yeah.

Matthew: I was hearing a lot more about that like two or three years ago I feel like but it seems like you don’t hear about it as much.

Harry: No now there’s a lot more, like the price of the closed loop systems has come down and people realize if I’m doing it I might as well do it right and invest in proper equipment.

Matthew: Okay. Where do you see concentrates going in the next few years? How do you see that evolving?

Harry: Truthfully it’s pretty evolved at the moment. There’s a company here in the Bay area called Guild Extracts and they were one of the first to produce THCa Crystalline which fundamentally looks like a white crystal so like a white quartz but you can dab it if you want but I would recommend not dabbing it because it’s THCa so it’s undecarboxylated meaning that it’s not psychoactive. So I’ve been giving it to a lot of patients that I work with for pain management and it works amazing. You can literally eat a pin drop and it will be as effective as maybe two 400 mg Advil’s; a pin drop.

Matthew: Wow.

Harry: And it doesn’t get you high.

Matthew: Wow. I can’t wait for that to come to market more readily.

Harry: Right. That’s the future. As things become more regulated, more legalized, more accepted it will allow us that have been doing this for so long to actually put our information out there in a more public way. There’s other cannabinoids that are not getting talked about such as CBGa which actually has neuroregenerative capacities. So I know people that have been beta testing various combinations of cannabinoids with as an example stroke victims and their recovery has been unbelievable so much so that a lot of the western doctors are sort of being a little suspicious like hey what are you giving this person and in fact you can tell them because it’s not that illegal. It’s CBGa. It’s like people; it’s not Delta9 THC. It’s not the same thing. It’s a cannabinoid but it actually helps repair and regenerate brain tissue.

Matthew: You mentioned you work with patients sometimes. What are the most common applications that you see cannabis treat well?

Harry: The two most common that I would see is any type of I don’t want to say per say Epilepsy but seizure based illnesses, any people having seizures. Generally I’ve seen the effectiveness be like from 200 seizures a day down to sometimes none. So I think that that’s amazing and pain management is another thing where I’ve seen it incredibly effective.

Matthew: Gosh and...

Harry: But there’s so many. I mean it manages insulin production and helps with diabetes. It helps with glaucoma. It’s a bronchial dilator. It’s like the sky is the limit. This is one of the most amazing and it’s probably the most amazing and wonderful and health providing plant on planet Earth.

Matthew: I haven’t heard about the diabetes approach. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Harry: I’ve only read a few articles on it. I’m not that informed but I do know that a lot of the cannabinoids THCVa, THCa help modulate insulin production in the endocannabinoid system.

Matthew: That’s interesting especially with so many people suffering from Type II diabetes.

Harry: Yeah absolutely.

Matthew: Let’s switch over to lighting really quick.

Harry: Sure.

Matthew: What are your thoughts on lighting these days? Are you looking more at LEDs used, LEDs now? What are your general thoughts?

Harry: Well Nico and I did a very; well primarily he did a very large; I helped him out. A very large lighting test that we had done in our CGI facility here in the Bay area and we used a Quantum Light Meter which was like a five thousand dollar light meter. This thing measures PAR which is the most important aspects of lights and PAR is photosynthetic active radiation. That’s actually what the plants take in and what allows the plants to grow. The whole talk of lumens and all of this we see in lumens. That’s how we measure foot candles all of that. Plants don’t see light. They absorb light by radiation. It’s a completely different way of thinking. So what we found is that the dual ended specifically the Gavita lights were the best. They were by far amazing.

I’ve switched out a few rooms and have been using these dual ended Gavita’s myself and yields the structure of the plants are amazing. It’s been an unbelievable development. As far as LEDs go we had tested a bunch of LEDs. The best ones that we had tested were from a company called Truth LED and they were a unit called an M6 and they tested really, really, really, really well. However the LEDs that often test really well are also very high in their output of wattage so the whole idea of saving your wattage by using LEDs is not often comparable because often the units that you do need to use that are the better ones do in fact use a tremendous amount of power because you might need four of those lights to 1,000 and if you’re using four lights that are all 600s then that’s 2400 versus maybe one light that’s a 1,000.

So that’s where I found still that LEDs are not quite there. Maybe as a veg room application or for people that just don’t have a choice. Look the quality is there 100%. I’ve seen some amazing quality buds come out of LED but from a commercial standpoint you just don’t get the yield. So I can’t operate a warehouse where I’m not at 95% or 100% productivity because I’m just losing money.

Matthew: What about soils? We talked about soil a little bit but what’s your favorite or ideal soil for cannabis and has that changed over the years?

Harry: Yes it has, it has absolutely. In the very beginning I was using mostly and again I would use sort of medium as the general term and then even soil is very confusing as a term.

Matthew: Yes it is.

Harry: Because I came here and I’m like yeah I need soil and then Nico was like there’s no soil here and I’m like well what do you mean like dirt. Dirt with humus and all this stuff. I need this dirt. He’s like well no we have sphagnum and peat and it’s all these different terms. So even that became well what actually is soil, planting soil you know what I mean. So in Europe we always used a type of planting soil which was actually a mix sphagnum, peat, dolomite lime, humus all of these things, worm castings, Guano. We would often just make a mix and then just give the plants water.

Matthew: Interesting.

Harry: Which was very easy.

Matthew: Yeah.

Harry: However the problem with that is you then have to potentially reuse it or throw it away. It becomes very bulky to get rid of all this dirt or you’ve got to find a spot where you can cook it out in the sun and then mix it up. So it can be a little bit time consuming and bulky. I found that cocoa works very well. It also gives the bud a very good flavor. Truthfully though there is nothing like soil. The soil just gives the bud this rich flavor and this powerful high comparatively to what I would call the more hydro mediums like rockwool or hydrocorals or any type of sort of non holding. Dirt holds in that flavor. Compacts it in and builds it up over time with the plant. The other mediums are so porous that things just fly right through.

Matthew: When you look out three to five years what are you most excited about in terms of cannabis growing technology and cultivation in general?

Harry: Yeah I think the future for cannabis is very interesting because as I go to more and more of these summits and more of these conferences what I start to see is applications from other industries and in this case there is so many advances that have been made in commercial ag over the last 25 years that are only now coming to fruition in cannabis just because it has been largely an underground science for so many years that I think that that is where I’m looking to see how we can take the best of both worlds and to see people that are interested in moving into cannabis from other plant sciences so other ag and I think that as we get more biologists, more chemists, more of the people that want to play with the plant from what I’m doing as far as the breeding projects and working with Steephill who we work with very closely. They’re really helping us with a lot of this stuff. I mean the sky is the limit. It’s amazing what’s coming.

Matthew: Harry let’s switch over to some personal development questions. As you look over the arc of your life is there a book that really stands out as having a big impact on your life that you’d like to share with listeners?

Harry: Yeah it’s funny I saw that question and I thought wow that’s a deep question. What would that book be and it’s funny I read comic books so I was thinking hmm what’s actually my favorite comic book storyline and well I had some deep spiritual experiences and I had this book that was this amazing book that really blew my mind and changed my whole life is it that book? So I thought wow this is a very difficult question but so fundamentally the book that actually completely changed my life is “The Diary of a Yogi” by somebody named Yogananda and if people are into any type of spirituality or want to know about the magical possibilities of life and can suspend a little bit of disbelief I would read that book “The Diary of a Yogi.”

Matthew: I haven’t heard that one. That’s a great suggestion.

Harry: From Yogananda.

Matthew: Is there a tool web based or otherwise you consider indispensible to your day to day productivity that you can share?

Harry: Unfortunately not yet. I use the SmartBee so for me as far as; you’re talking about cannabis productivity?

Matthew: Anything. It could be anything in your life that you consider very helpful. It doesn’t have to be cannabis focused.

Harry: The thing that I find to be the most helpful is that SmartBee actually.

Matthew: Yeah.

Harry: Because I’ve never had it where I could literally go on my phone right now and look at the last week of my room. I like that. I like to geek out on what’s going on in my rooms. So that I use all the time.

Matthew: Very cool.

Harry: Yeah.

Matthew: Harry as we close can you tell listeners how to find you online and in print?

Harry: Sure. You can go to and Google Harry Resin and you’ll find Harry’s World which is my weekly column when I have time or bi-monthly column when I have less time and there’s a ton of articles on there already. You can also find me I believe it’s harry_resin on Instagram and you could also check out; I launched four months ago a delivery service here in the Bay area and that is called HERB and we’re and we are the number one delivery service in San Francisco at the moment.

Matthew: Wow. How is that working out for you? Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Harry: Yeah. It’s been going amazing. So the menu is curated by myself. A lot of the flowers are in fact from my own warehouses so it’s grown by my team and my master growers and the flowers have been just amazing and yeah it’s a curated menu that I put together and we’re slowly expanding the menu and expanding into new territories and it’s been going amazing.

Matthew: Okay and is that just on the peninsula of San Francisco or is it the whole Bay area?

Harry: Yeah.

Matthew: Okay.

Harry: For now just the peninsula. We’re going to expand in the next couple months into Oakland.

Matthew: Okay very cool.

Harry: Yeah.

Matthew: Well Harry thanks so much for coming on CannaInsider today and educating us. We really appreciate it.

Harry: Thanks for having me it was a real pleasure.

If you enjoyed the show today please consider leaving us a review on iTunes, Stitcher, or whatever app you might be using to listen to the show. Every five star review helps us to bring the best guests to you. Learn more at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/itunes. What are the five disruptive trends that will impact the cannabis industry in the next five years? Find out with your free report at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/trends. Have a suggestion for an awesome guest on CannaInsider? Simply send us an email at feedback(at)cannainsider(dot)com we’d love to hear from you.
Please do not take any information from CannaInsider or its guests as medical advice. Contact your licensed physician before taking cannabis or using it for medical treatments. Lastly the host or guests on CannaInsider may or may not invest in the companies or entrepreneurs profiled on the show. Please consult your licensed financial advisor before making any investment decisions.
Final disclosure to see if you’re still paying attention this little whistle jingle you’re listening to will get stuck in your head for the rest of the day. Thanks for listening and look for another CannaInsider episode soon. Take care. Bye bye.

Harry Resin has a column in High Times Magazine with a focus on cannabis cultivation topics.  Listen in as he shares his ideas how to improve your grow and thoughts on where the industry is heading.

Key Takeaways:
[2:08] – Harry talks about his background
[4:25] – Harry discusses what he does when he is not writing for High Times
[5:31] – Harry talks about the assisted breeder project he’s working on
[7:53] – Harry’s advice on starting a commercial grow
[9:58] – Rookie mistakes when starting a grow
[11:12] – Harry discusses the importance of airflow
[14:14] – How to contain cannabis odor
[14:53] – Harry discusses nutrients
[17:35] – Harry talks about PH levels
[19:49] – What are Smart Bee Controllers
[24:24] – Clones and grow room management
[29:26] – How to minimize pests and disease
[33:36] – Harry talks about how each region differs
[34:47] – What is dabbing
[38:11] – Evolution of concentrates
[40:10] – Harry talks about conditions cannabis treats well
[41:38] – Harry talks about lighting
[44:16] – Harry talks about his favorite soil for growing
[46:19] – Harry discusses upcoming technologies
[47:42] – Harry’s book and web application recommendation
[49:26] – Harry’s contact details

Learn more at:

Important Update:
What are the five trends that will disrupt the cannabis market in the next five years? Find out with your free guide at:

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The Five Disruptive Trends Shaping The Cannabis Industry Now

Cannabis Salt & Sweeteners Will Revolutionize Infused Products

kelly ogilvie deep cell industries

Read Full Transcript

Hi I’m Matthew Kind. Every Monday look for a fresh new episode where I’ll take you behind the scenes and interview the insiders that are shaping the rapidly evolving cannabis industry. Learn more at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com. That’s www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com. We’ve talked about CBD or cannabidiol on the show many times. Just to review though CBD is a nonpsychoactive compound from the cannabis or hemp plant that has many benefits. Now our friends at Treatibles have put together a wellness chew that can help your dog or cat become more calm and balanced. Valerie wrote in to tell us about her experience with Treatibles.

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Matthew: An entrepreneur has come on the cannabis scene in recent months that developed a technology that will solve a problem cannabis infused product makers have been struggling with for some time. Here to tell us about it is Kelly Ogilvie from DeepCell Industries. Kelly welcome to CannaInsider.

Kelly: Thank you Matt. I’m glad to be here.

Matthew: Kelly give us a sense of geography. Where in the world are you today?

Kelly: We are in sunny Seattle, Washington.

Matthew: Good. It’s rare to hear of the preface sunny in front of that but I’m glad you’re getting some rare sunshine.

Kelly: Indeed.

Matthew: And I am in Chicago today. Now Kelly give us a little background about yourself. What were you doing before launching DeepCell?

Kelly: Directly prior to DeepCell I served here in Washington state as Governor Jay Hensley’s Senior Policy Advisor for economic development and business interests and what that means is cannabis economic development, technology, life sciences, etc. Those were all in my what we call our policy portfolio and so I saw firsthand the emergence and the growth of this nascent cannabis industry here in Washington.

Matthew: Yeah what’s it like behind the curtain on the other side. I feel like when I look at government it’s like looking at a fish bowl like what is going on here. I hear things coming out of it but I can’t see. What’s it like being on the other side of that curtain and doing economic development for the governor?

Kelly: You bet that’s a good question. It’s an interesting question to answer. Prior to the governor’s office I’m an entrepreneur by nature. DeepCell is the fifth business I’ve founded. I’ve founded a biotech companies, software companies, strategy firms, etc. So going into public life in the governor’s office was a bit of a change for me. Behind the curtain I got to tell you I think the regulators are doing the best they can to balance two interests. On one hand you have this emergent industry where there’s a lot of opportunity but also a lot of risk. On the other hand they’re trying to do the best then can to protect the public interests in an area where there’s a lot of gray areas in terms of what is and is not allowed. Of course the federal prohibition alongside with the state allowances via state laws it’s a very interesting time to be in this industry.

Matthew: And what’s DeepCell?

Kelly: So DeepCell it’s a technology development company. We’re a product development company and licensing firm. So what we do is we develop technologies that we license into the cannabis industry and the reason we’ve done this is because of some of the issues that both cannabis touching and non cannabis touching operators face. So as your listeners will know very well if you handle cannabis you’ll deal with lots of regulatory issues. You deal with baking issues. You deal with the inability to deduct certain types of taxes that normal businesses can and so we constructed DeepCell with a very specific idea in mind and that idea was how do we work with cannabis touching operators, how do we deliver value to our investors and shareholders, how do add value to the industry and do it in a way that is accretive to both cannabis touching companies and non cannabis touching companies like ourselves and so what we do is we develop technologies like our crystal fusion technology which allows us to fuse cannabinoids with crystals such as sugar and salt. We license out that technology and our brands to manufacturers and distributors in Washington State.

Matthew: So why focus on crystallized seasonings or ingredients?

Kelly: Yeah that’s a great question. So in Washington State we’ve seen explosive growth in the cannabis industry. It went from zero and now we just crossed a billion dollars in gross sales maybe two weeks ago here in Washington State. That’s massive growth.

Matthew: That is, that is massive growth.

Kelly: I mean no pun intended right.

Matthew: Yeah.

Kelly: It’s incredible when you think about there was virtually and literally no infrastructure to really base any expectations on and so I remember sitting in meetings with the governor and the finance folks forecasting taxes and they literally said we’re not going to forecast any taxes and I looked at them and said you guys are crazy. This is going to be huge and they said well can you give us any market comps and the answer is no there was nothing that existed really in terms of a legal market to really forecast taxes in this industry. But getting back to the concept of crystallized ingredients we did it because in this industry in Washington State this explosive cannabis growth is being fueled by three primary segments the flower, concentrates and extracts, and primarily edibles.

And we’re seeing probably the most growth currently in the edible market and in the edible market it’s primarily dominated by edibles such as brownies and cookies. Things that you can make with butter or you can make with oils and we found that there is a huge opportunity in this ingredient space to build platform ingredients and that’s why we focused on sugar and salt because sugar and salt are the two most used ingredients in the world. They are incredibly flexible in terms of the types of recipes and things they can make both sweet and savory and also they perform differently than oils. So for instance oil and water don’t mix so creating beverages require; if you add oil you need something that will emulsify or have that oil blend with the water like soy lecithin.

Sugar and salt don’t have that issue. They dissolve in water. They’re easily dosable. They perform well under heat. They just have very different performance characteristics that we think can help unleash a lot of innovation in the space.

Matthew: That’s really interesting because I over the years have talked to a lot of infused products companies and you do always hear about hey I need to use a fat here like an oil or a butter or an emulsifier to make kind of a homogenous liquid. This kind of removes that constraint if you will. Does it taste? Does the sugar or salt crystal have a cannabis taste to it?

Kelly: It has a very, very light taste and smell. I’d love to say it doesn’t have any taste or smell which some people don’t notice it. I notice it because I’m very sensitive and I’m very critical of the products that we manufacture or license out for manufacture and develop in our labs here. It is a very low flavor profile relative to what’s on the market today if that makes sense. If I were to give you a regular bowl of sugar and then a bowl of the Ruby cannabis infused sugar you’d say oh it tastes like something almost like a nutty something or other. It does not taste like your traditional cannabis plant and that’s because or a cannabis edible excuse me and that’s because we go to great lengths to remove the terpenes and chlorophylls that give cannabis it’s very distinctive flavor and smell.

And so for us we’re trying to create a platform ingredient that allows food to taste like food because once you do that you don’t have to have some of the artificial flavorings or ingredients that are used to mask certain flavors with the bitterness associated with certain cannabis edibles.

Matthew: So you’re licensing this technology. What kind of partners are interested in this type of technology that want to license it from you?

Kelly: We have a licensee here in Washington State called Green Labs. They manufacture a gourmet line of edibles called the Swiss Brand. They make truffles, they make seven layer bars, they make macaroons, they make honey sticks, they make CBD mints. They’ve won some awards for different edible products. So we’re finding that there’s interest from edible manufacturers and licensed processors and I think what they see is an opportunity to manufacture not just products such as brownies or cookies or what have you but they see an opportunity to manufacture an ingredient that they can sell to other manufacturers as well.

Matthew: This is interesting Kelly because in other industries I’m thinking of precious metals we have royalty companies and in oil and energy business we have master limited partnerships and it’s kind of developing this intellectual property or royalty streams and this is kind of a new development for the cannabis industry. You’ve seen it with some edibles companies licensing across state lines but I can’t recall something like what you’re trying to do here in the cannabis industry so it’s pretty interesting. Have you borrowed any ideas from other industries like the pharma industries or anybody else to kind of create this idea or business structure?

Kelly: You bring up really interesting model and that’s the streaming and royalty sort of structure of the precious metals industry. It’s very interesting you mention that because part of the construct of this company originally in conversations with my business partner who originally founded DeepCell in I think March of last year. It was really sort of thinking about what models have been unique and innovative in different industries which solve problems and applying it to this industry because really there is no best practices in cannabis right now and so there is a real opportunity I think to borrow models that have been successful in different places and bring them into this industry to see if they fit and the precious metal streaming concept is something that I have found very interesting for several years. I personally am an investor in several precious metal streaming companies and I love the idea of having leverage and exposure to an industry without some of the same manufacturing risks.

Matthew: Yeah, yeah.

Kelly: And their lie sort of the seeds of what would become the DeepCell model of developing IP and then licensing that IP out to manufacturers who have already invested in the property, plant, and equipment and have the means of production to manufacture these things. So that was sort of the genesis and the idea behind the company and it’s funny you bring that up because that’s exactly how we thought about this.

Matthew: Now do you see this being kind of only manufacturing partners using your crystal and salts and sweeteners like Ruby and Sapphire and Emerald or do you see end users like someone at a dispensary saying hey can I have some infused cannabis sugar to take home? I mean who’s kind of the target market here?

Kelly: Yeah so we’re currently licensing out the Ruby and Sapphire brands and products to our licensee green labs and they manufacture and distribute to dispensaries around or retail shops, adult use recreational shops around Washington State. The product began in medical here in Washington. It’s now transitioned into the adult use recreational space and so packets of sugar are being sold to consumers today and therein lies I think an opportunity as both consumer facing products where you can build brand equity and consumers can recognize the brand but also the plan is to sell and license the sugar to enterprise processors to put the sugar into their edible products. So it’s really an exposure to both consumer facing and business facing enterprises.

Matthew: This has so many interesting applications. I think about how when I talk to baby boomers about cannabis and there’s still a stigma around the smoking. Once it’s lit there’s a stigma around it and I can understand why kind of some general rational biases and things but when I think about like a salt or a bath salt and as the boomers age and they have arthritis and other problems if they can just use a salt that’s already cannabis infused and slip into a bath and feel so much better it’s going to change a lot of perceptions. So as more of these innovative applications come out that are not smoking like we’re talking about here this is going to further accelerate the perception shift.

Kelly: No I totally agree with you. What’s interesting is we’ve had patients in the medical space tell us that they love the sugar but they put it in their coffee and when we asked them what about the edible they like they actually say well it’s because it’s an edible it’s easy to use and we don’t want to smoke because it hurts our lungs.

Matthew: Yeah.

Kelly: And I never really thought about that until the patient said that but when folks are dealing with medical ailments lung capacity issues depending on their ailment or preserving their lung capacity when they’re getting sort of older in age is very important to them and so it began to sort of shift my thinking around what edibles really are for and I think you’re seeing this interesting blend of medicine and recreational happening here in Washington State. People will use cannabis because they have a headache or their back hurts or they want to have a good time. So that line between is it medicine or is it not medicine is getting blurred as a result of sort of the multifaceted uses and sort of cultural uses around cannabis.

Matthew: So with Ruby and Sapphire your sweeteners and salts from DeepCell are we going to see something like a NutraSweet type like sweetened by DeepCell or sweetened by Ruby or Sapphire on some products in the future you think?

Kelly: Absolutely. That is the business model that we’re going after. We really want to be the intel inside for edibles. I think NutraSweet probably is a really appropriate example in the food space of a brand that is both consumer facing but also is a label ingredient and that for us is really important is having the marks either Ruby or a Sapphire being a marked quality and so for us we don’t have any artificial ingredients or binders to make our product water soluble. It’s literally just certified organic sugar and high grade distillate cannabis extract and I guess one feature I want to mention is we are a technology development house and one thing we’re working on right now is a field called microfluidics and for your listeners who may not be familiar with what microfluidics are if they’ve ever seen the movie “Bug Life” or if you’ve seen the movie “A Bugs Life” there’s a scene in that Pixar movie where a bug goes up to the bar and he says hey give me a drink and the bug tender he doesn’t hand the character a cup he hands him a ball of water.

Matthew: Yeah.

Kelly: And the character sticks the straw in the water or the ball and sucks the ball with a straw and he hands the straw back and what’s happening there is microfluidics deals with the nature of fluids at very small scales and the physics changes and here’s what’s exciting about Ruby and Sapphire and microfluidics. Because sugar and salt are water soluble they dissolve into a water medium and that allows us now to use droplet by droplet dosing for the future for us. So we’re building platforms for future devices where you can use your mobile phone or you can use some other device to dose specifically for your particular ailment. So if you know what your ratio is in terms of THC to CBD or if you know what type of terpene profile gives you the relief or the experience you want you can now dial that specifically for your wants and that’s a really exciting innovation for us to be working on here at DeepCell.

Matthew: Are you an accredited investor looking to be part of some of the most sought after private cannabis investment opportunities? Get on our free private investment alert service at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/invest. Once you have subscribed to the investor alert service you will get access to curated opportunities the public will simply never see. Again that URL is www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/invest. That’s www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/invest. Now back to your program.

Matthew: And so when do you think your licensed technology will go around the country. I mean you’re in the Washington area now. Are you planning on staying just in Washington for a while letting it mature a little bit before going elsewhere?

Kelly: No. So we’re out looking for licensee’s in both Colorado and New York. So we’re been in some discussions with some firms in New York. We have some traction with firms in Colorado. We certainly are eyeing Oregon and then California of course is the big enchilada. That’s the ballot measure coming up in November. They’ll probably go through a rule making process and have a legal market by 2018 and so that for us is a huge deal is focusing on that market.

Matthew: Now just thinking about baking and things I mean are sweeteners used much more than salts because salts are used a lot but it’s probably in smaller dosages.

Kelly: That’s correct.

Matthew: Okay.

Kelly: Yeah that’s correct. Yes in terms of volume of actual product for us our Sapphire salt a half a gram is a full 10mg dose. It’s very potent and the reason you want to do that is because salt you don’t want a whole lot of salt in your diet. As a micronutrient you don’t want a teaspoon of salt in your food it would be too salty because it’s very strong. Sugar on the other hand it’s much less of a potent sweetener and a lot of folks don’t know sugar; a teaspoon of sugar isn’t that high calorie, its fifteen calories versus say another edible that might be 300 or 400 calories.

Matthew: Okay. What’s the reaction been from investors?

Kelly: Investors in DeepCell?

Matthew: Yeah.

Kelly: I would say the reaction how would I characterize their reaction? Very eager, excited they love the concept but I think all of our investors have been told by me and our management team that startups are already risky. One in ten make it in general. We’re in an industry where that risk is magnified by the uncertainty around the politics and the regulatory framework. So I think they all know that they’re in a high risk venture and along with that risk comes high reward I think is what they expect.

Matthew: I would say your risk profile seems less to me because you’re licensing technology that others are actually taking on the risk back to the kind of royalty model. So I like the risk exposure here compared to some other things. I think there’s a lot riskier things out there so; but I guess if you have nothing to compare it to it sounds riskier in the cannabis field and you’re not; people aren’t used to the cannabis field just yet.

Kelly: Right and I guess one sort of friendly amendment to this conversation would be technology we do not generate a royalty from our license agreements. It’s technically a per unit or packet fee.

Matthew: Okay.

Kelly: And then it’s very specific because the regulators in Washington and other states I think have deemed it that if you become what you call a part of interest then you derive benefit from the direct business practices of your business partners or a business entity that’s licensed. So for us we had to stay away from a direct percentage license fee and move towards a packet fee that bakes in no pun intended; bakes in a lot of the different types of costs and upside that the product could have in the marketplace. So it isn’t as if we’re selling them a package and the package is two cents. The package comes fully loaded with the expected profit, the expected expenses, all of the above. So it’s more complicated than it sounds.

Matthew: Are you still looking for new investors?

Kelly: We are not looking for new investors currently however we will be launching our next round at some point at the end of 2016 into 2017.

Matthew: Okay. How do you feel about Seattle as kind of a hub for cannabis innovation?

Kelly: I think I mean I’m very bias I live here in Seattle. I really like Seattle because of the type of I think intellectual curiosity, the environmentalism here and I think that environmentalism plays out in these really interesting ways. In one way there isn’t a lot of materialism in Seattle and so you don’t see a lot of people who are doing things just purely for the buck. You see a lot of companies here who are trying to do right by the consumer, who are trying to do right by the environment, and I think that culturally has had an impact on the types of companies that are emerging here. They have an ethos about them. They’re not just profiteering although those people are out there. I think in general having a tech sort of community and emergent industry it’s been influenced by the environmental culture of the Northwest.

Matthew: And this is back to kind of your role working with the governor. Do you feel that the fact that Washington has no state income tax attracts more business?

Kelly: I think it does and I think you’ve seen that play out with large companies being domicile here such as Microsoft and Starbucks and Boeing, Nordstrom, and Costco. I mean there are a lot of; Amazon, big companies are all domiciled here and I think; I know they certainly use it as part of their recruitment tools for bringing talent here. The lack of an income tax certainly has been beneficial but I think being on the other side having worked in government it also can have drawbacks in terms of its a very regressive tax structure and I say that because what ends up happening is without an income tax you have very high sales tax and the people who can least afford to pay that sales tax are poor people and they’re the ones who shoulder most of the burden on a relative basis of income to tax burden.

Matthew: Yeah that’s true although there could be a model where on your state income tax returns if you make under a certain threshold it could be credited. That could be possible. I’m a big fan of the no state income tax especially in the state I’m in right now in Illinois where I’m originally a native of and I see; I look at Texas, I look at Washington, Nevada, Florida and I just see it seems like businesses really want to go to these places because they’re treated better and I’m just hoping that message starts to cascade through the country and through the world that business goes where’s it’s treated best so that would be amazing. I’ll just get off my soapbox there but I just wanted an opportunity to say that. Let’s transition to some personal development questions Kelly.

Kelly: Sure.

Matthew: As you look back over the arc or your life is there a book that you think has had a big impact on you and your thinking that you’d like to share with listeners?

Kelly: You know I love the sciences and so my friends think I’m a huge nerd because I read in my personal life at night I’ll go through things like the financials of some company. That stuff kind of gets me going so I’d say in my formative years I read a book by a gentleman named Bertrand Russell and the book was called “The Mind of God” and he’s a mathematician/philosopher and that was really interesting for me to read is thinking about the universe around us. Really taking a scientific approach and sort of waxing poetic around boy were people a science we don’t necessarily believe in mysticism but if we don’t believe in mysticism how the heck did we get here and so that kind of thinking, intellectual curiosity I think took me on a journey of really beginning to explore and love the sciences and I went from that to “Black Holes and Baby Universes” by Stephen Hawking and that took me on a journey of love for science.

Matthew: Gosh those are great recommendations. I saw Mr. Hawking speak once at the University of Chicago and it was mind blowing. He really has; he was talking about a fourth dimension and so forth and it was crazy.

Kelly: Yeah, yep.

Matthew: I don’t know if you saw Elon Musk recently he was on some panel and he was talking about how he thinks perhaps we are living in a virtual reality created by an alien race. Did you see that?

Kelly: I saw just some of the clips and the headlines. I think that’s just silly in my opinion.

Matthew: You know what it’s so funny to me because when you hear him talk about it he obviously has been thinking about this in detail and talking about it with other people so it’s interesting to hear about it and then he thinks that as we discover deeper math principles and physics principles these are the source codes of this reality. So it’s one of those things you really go down a worm hole if you start to think about too much.

Kelly: Yeah. It certainly is possible. A lot of things are possible in this universe. I guess in the multi-verse anything is possible right.

Matthew: One more personal development question. Is there a tool web-based or otherwise that you consider indispensable to your day to day life or productivity?

Kelly: I would say we use two platforms that have been very helpful in terms of organizing our business. One is Trello and the other is Slack. But both are productivity tools for individuals or businesses. We use Trello to communicate with our graphic design firms and some of our packaging developers. It’s a fantastic tool to organize content and Slack has been a fantastic tool to communicate within our teams.

Matthew: Yeah so Trello is that kind of like each idea or task you’re trying to communicate it looks like an open card and you have cards on the table? Is that right?

Kelly: Yeah that’s right.

Matthew: Okay and Slack is more of a Messenger would you say or your communication channels on themes.

Kelly: Yep that’s right. That’s absolutely right.

Matthew: Okay great. Well Kelly thanks so much for coming on CannaInsider today. Before we close do you want to let listeners know how they can find out more about DeepCell?

Kelly: Yes. They can visit our website at or they can visit to learn about the Ruby product.

Matthew: Yes and you did hear him correctly here. Instead of .com, .org there’s all these new domain extensions so it’s deepcell and instead of .com it’s .industries so that’s cool. We’re getting more minimalist here in the domain names. Kelly thanks so much for being on CannaInsider today we really appreciate it.

Kelly: Thanks Matt.

If you enjoyed the show today please consider leaving us a review on iTunes, Stitcher, or whatever app you might be using to listen to the show. Every five star review helps us to bring the best guests to you. Learn more at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/itunes. What are the five disruptive trends that will impact the cannabis industry in the next five years? Find out with your free report at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/trends. Have a suggestion for an awesome guest on CannaInsider? Simply send us an email at feedback(at)cannainsider(dot)com. We’d love to hear from you.

Please do not take any information from CannaInsider or its guests as medical advice. Contact your licensed physician before taking cannabis or using it for medical treatments. Lastly the host or guests on CannaInsider may or may not invest in the companies or entrepreneurs profiled on the show. Please consult your licensed financial advisor before making any investment decisions. Final disclosure to see if you’re still paying attention this little whistle jingle you’re listening to will get stuck in your head for the rest of the day. Thanks for listening and look for another CannaInsider episode soon. Take care. Bye bye.

Kelly Ogilvie the CEO and CO-Founder of Deep Cell Industries joins Matthew Kind to talk about how his products will revolutionize the cannabis industry. Until this point cannabis infused products companies needed a fat soluble way (oil, butter, etc) to get THC into infused products. With Deep Cell’s pre-infused sweeteners and salt that is no longer a requirement. This will open the door to a myriad of new products.

Key Takeaways:
[2:11] – Kelly talks about his background
[3:42] – What is DeepCell
[7:34] – What does the sugar or salt crystal taste like
[8:43] – Kelly talks about their licensing partners
[11:40] – DeepCell’s target market
[14:28] – Future DeepCell products
[17:29] – Kelly talks about expanding to other states
[18:55] – Reaction in DeepCell from investors
[21:10] – Seattle as a hub for cannabis innovation
[24:09] – Kelly’s book and internet app recommendations
[27:29] – DeepCell’s contact information

Learn more at:

Important Update:
What are the five trends that will disrupt the cannabis market in the next five years?Find out with your free guide at:

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The Five Disruptive Trends Shaping The Cannabis Industry Now

Top Trending Stories in Cannabis with MJ Biz Daily Editor Chris Walsh

chris walsh marijuana business daily

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Hi I’m Matthew Kind. Every Monday look for a fresh new episode where I will take you behind the scenes and interview the insiders that are shaping the rapidly evolving cannabis industry. Learn more at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com. That’s www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com. We’ve talked about CBD or cannabidiol on this show many times. Just to review, CBD is a non-psychoactive compound from the cannabis or hemp plant that has many benefits. Now our friends at Treatibles have put together a wellness CBD chew that can help your dog or cat become more calm and balanced. Valerie wrote in to tell us about her experience.

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Matthew: The cadence of important news stories is heating up as we approach the November elections. Here to help us look at the most impactful news stories affecting the cannabis industry is Chris Walsh, editor of Marijuana Business Daily. In addition to their informative daily news stories, Marijuana Business Daily also hosts the most popular industry conference that I attend regularly. Chris, welcome to CannaInsider.

Chris: Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Matthew: Chris give us a sense of geography. Where are you in the world today?

Chris: I’m based in Denver. I was actually born and raised here and have witnessed the evolution of the epicenter of the marijuana industry right now which is in Colorado.

Matthew: Yes, wow, you’re a rare native. You’re like Snuffleupagus or some mystical creature like a unicorn.

Chris: Exactly. It’s changing quickly as more people move here in part for jobs in the marijuana industry but yeah not a lot of natives.

Matthew: Chris I want to dive into everything that Marijuana Business Daily is doing, but before we do can you give us a little more background on yourself and your career before getting involved with Marijuana Business Daily?

Chris: Sure yeah I’m a longtime business journalist. I’ve worked at metropolitan mainstream newspapers and even was in South Korea for two years as a business editor for a newspaper out there. So I’m a business journalist. I have an MBA so a lot of people are surprised at my background and some of the other executives because I guess the perception outside the industry of course as we’ve all experience is that it’s a bunch of people in tie-dye and sandals walking around. So no that’s my background. I actually moved to South Korea in 2009 and there were no dispensaries open in Colorado when I left, and when I came back two years later there were more dispensaries in Denver than Starbucks so that’s how quickly the industry grew here.

Matthew: And for listeners that may not be familiar with Marijuana Business Daily, what are all the information and services and conferences you off just to get a broad perspective?

Chris: Yeah we actually started in 2011 which is an eternity in this industry. Five years is a very long time ago. We basically provide news and analysis on our website and then we have Trade Publication, Marijuana Business Magazine that’s print publication. And then we do market research reports, our Marijuana Business Fact Book where we make estimates about the industry and cover things like profitability and revenue metrics for businesses in this industry. Then we’re just as well known for our business to business conferences, the Marijuana Business Conference and Expo. We have our big Vegas show coming up in November where we’re going to have 7,000-8,000 professionals gathered there to learn an network and discuss some of the hottest topics in the industry. So that’s kind of our reach. We provide basically information in various ways to business people.

Matthew: Yeah you know it seems an interesting phenomena is occurring there. There is more and more cannabis conferences popping but people want to kind of net it out I notice, and when I talk to people they’re saying they’re going to yours and maybe an ArcView event or one other, but they’ve kind of said as more grow, they’re limiting to the most important. So that’s great for you, but an interesting phenomenon nonetheless.

Chris: Yeah and we’ve kind of seen this firsthand. We were doing business to business conferences in this industry starting in 2012. So we were the first really to do this. Back then there were medical marijuana conferences, but it would have Cypress Hill has the entertainment and it all the vendors were basically paraphernalia companies, and it was more like a festival or a cultural event and there was very little business focus or education. So again we were the first ones to kind of do the suits and ties type of conferences and since then, as you mentioned, it’s really exploded I think. It went from just us a couple years ago and I think last year there were 40-ish “business to business” conferences out there. So yeah there’s a lot of them, and I think you’ll see some weeding out as people pick and choose what they prefer.

Matthew: As the editor, as you watch news stories kind of come in, create a stir and fade away, are there any topics that seem to be persistently important?

Chris: Well I think basically the biggest one and the most obvious one would be the federal government’s position on marijuana and just last night and into this morning we’ve been scrambling to cover the news of the day which was the DEA basically saying it won’t reschedule cannabis, but it will open the door to research. So there’s always questions about when is the federal government going to take some concrete steps on marijuana, approve the bills that will open the doors to banking and lower the tax burden on the industry which is significant, and of course legalize it or reschedule marijuana nationally. So that’s always the kind of overriding big question that people are talking about.

I would say secondarily it’s kind of the local or state regulations. Everyone, they’re always changing and shifting and everyone in the business is trying to get their head around these changes on the regulatory front because it really affects them on a day to day basis. So that’s the other big topic. Banking of course, everyone wants to know how to get a bank account, which banks are working with the industry. And then as I mentioned, this tax burden where obviously businesses can’t take the same types of deductions that a normal business so it really hurts profit margins and people really want to know how they can work around that. So those are kind of some of the common things that we hear about a lot.

Matthew: Yeah and speaking of Korea, I feel like the United States is starting to look more like North Korea when you compare us to Canada. They seem to be doing everything right in terms of banking and federally legal and we’re kind of moving backwards at times. Well it’s more like pushing over a Coke machine. We go back and forth and we kind of make the right decision, but that’s kind of a big blow, a big punch in the stomach that the DEA says that. It’s frustrating a little bit, but what are we going to do?

Chris: Yeah it is, it is, I like that analogy. It is like a punch to the stomach. It’s like when are you going to finally realize, when are federal officials going to realize that this is a real industry. This has medical uses. I mean talk to the million plus patients in states that have legalized medical marijuana who use this for cancer and HIV and glaucoma and PTSD. So it’s really ridiculous and to your point, yes, the government’s policies are pretty antiquated on medical marijuana specifically. And other countries are moving ahead and kind of pioneering this area when it really should be the US doing it.

Matthew: How have you seen the scope or tone or perspective change over the years since you started covering the industry. I mean now it seems more mainstream. There’s more people coming in from different business industries coming into the cannabis industry. How has your lens changed when you look at the industry now?

Chris: It’s changed significantly. I mean when we first started I would go to meet people in the industry and they would think that I was a narc, an FBI agent and they were really cagey and with good reason at that time because they were basically pioneering a whole new industry that’s product is federally illegal so I don’t blame them for that paranoia, but no one wanted to talk on the record or publically or very few did. They were skeptical of anyone they didn’t know and most of the pioneers of the industry, the people at that time were people who had a strong affinity for cannabis and its uses either medically or recreationally and a lot of them, certainly not all, but a lot of them didn’t have kind of the professional business backgrounds of running companies or starting companies or executive level positions. A lot of people had been growing in their basements for a long time and buying and selling on the black market.

So what we see now is, and there’s kind of a clash, you have the more savvy business people coming in that may or may not really care about marijuana itself. They may not have that passion for the plant but they see it as a business opportunity. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that if it’s kept in check. So now you do have these mainstream people coming in. You have executives and entrepreneurs who have founded many other companies in mainstream industries. You have former DEA officials getting involved. You have former politicians. I mean the list goes on and on and it’s really accelerating as this becomes more mainstream. I will say, however, if you’re in a state that has not legalized medical or recreational marijuana, there is still that kind of heavy stigma I’ve found and people still scratch their heads. Don’t really even consider this a serious industry. Then you find that once a state legalizes everyone seems to get it. So there is still that stigma out there that is hard to overcome.

Matthew: Yeah I’m driving around the country right now and I have Colorado plates on my car and people stop me and actually say hey pot’s legal there now right. Like they kind of whisper that to me. I’m like okay, is that the ice breaker now. Okay.

Chris: Yeah and I mean doing this for five and a half years I’ve heard many similar comments directed at me. I mean most people are fascinated by it or interested in it or support it. I have found very very few people, even in states that haven’t legalized, that are aggressive or anti-marijuana and they want to wag their finger at me or anything. I mean it’s amazing how many people are just like yeah it should be legal at least medically. So that’s the other part of it that’s changed. When I started in 2011, came from a professional background. I covered high tech. I covered airlines for newspapers and at that time when I took this position a lot of people, my former colleagues were kind of scratching their heads and saying what is this guy doing. Is he a closet pot head working for a marijuana publication, but now they’re kind of calling and asking if we’re hiring. So things have changed.

Matthew: Right. So as the November elections approach, which stories do you see as the biggest news?

Chris: It’s going to be a fascinating November for the industry. I mean this could be a big watershed moment that marijuana supporters and business people have been waiting for. You could have almost a dozen states basically voting on whether to legalize medical or recreational marijuana. Just today I think North Dakota approved the signatures there so they will be voting on medical marijuana. You have about a half a dozen other states that will be voting and then you have even more states that have gathered the signatures and submitted them and are waiting to hear back to see if it qualifies. So this could be a huge, huge event for the industry.

There’s a lot of potentially huge markets that could legalize. California will be voting on whether to legalize recreational marijuana. That in itself would be massive for the industry. And according to our projections if California legalizes recreational marijuana, its sales just in that state of marijuana would be higher than the entire industry’s sales right now of medical and recreational. They have a massive population. It’s a big tourist hub and if it’s legal there, it’s really going to push this industry and fuel it forward. And then you have other states. Massachusetts will be voting on recreational and of course Nevada which if they legalize recreational it would be huge as well given its tourism draw. And then on the medical side you have Florida as the big market there. So basically in a nutshell this has the potential to lead to billions of dollars of revenues for the industry and tens of thousands of jobs and tens of thousands of business opportunities. I can’t overstate the importance of this.

Matthew: Yeah California is kind of the big bang. They have the technology, the capital, the people and the culture that’s ready to adopt it immediately.

Chris: Absolutely.

Matthew: Which the other states don’t seem to have quite to the same extent.

Chris: Yeah and a lot of people in the industry are saying California is really the linchpin that if it fails there it is going to set the industry back by years and be a real travesty and a blow to the industry. That if it passes though it will have the opposite effect obviously and propel everything forward. I don’t personally necessarily think that failure there would set the industry back a decade. I think it would be very unfortunate. It could slow some of the momentum, but the industry is operating just fine now without California having legalized recreational . Yes it would be a big disappointment and there would be an impact, however, I don’t think it’s as great as some people say.

Matthew: What about California’s framework of regulation. It’s in typical California fashion. They’ve rolled out some huge Quagmire of regulation in different categories of people that can operate within the industry. Does that act as kind of a wet blanket at all or is it just such a huge, powerful industry that nothing can hold it back?

Chris: Well I mean California has been just such a mess in the marijuana arena. It clearly was the capital of medical marijuana for years and was the pioneering state that really helped the industry get to where it is today, but they didn’t regulate the industry from a statewide basis so it kind of fell behind Colorado and Washington because it’s a mess. I mean every city has its own rules. Some don’t have any rules. There’s a ton of businesses operating outside of regulatory frameworks on a local level that have been established and basically it hasn’t really pioneered any of the legit side of the industry anymore because of this chaos. So the regulatory framework being developed for medical marijuana is a huge development that is positive, but it’s going to lead to a lot of turmoil because a lot of businesses that exist now are not going to be able to make the transition to a regulated market.

In the long run this is very good and in the short term it’s going to be chaotic. You got to feel for a lot of the businesspeople there who again pioneered the industry that might not be able to make over to the regulated market, but then if they legalize recreational it’s just a huge question mark of what’s that going to mean for medical and how this is all going to develop.

Matthew: What are the most controversial topics in the cannabis industry right now? I mean when you put out stories on certain topic do you find you get kind of a polarized response on certain topics from people?

Chris: Yeah I mean there’s a couple of areas. There’s issues particularly on the regulatory side with edibles and infused products. What is the appropriate level or regulations that states should be imposing and you find that responses are all over the board. There’s still a lot of people who don’t think there should be many regulations on infused products at all and they get very angry when states and cities try to regulate that. And then you have people who think there should be very strict regulations like you have on anything else you consume, especially on the food side. So that’s a big issues. The testing conundrum is a big issue too.

There’s no federal oversight, there’s no industry-wide standards on testing. So businesses are forced to test marijuana and infused products but they don’t trust the results. Every lab gets back to you with different numbers on potency and all that. So testing is still controversial. Then you have other kind of HR issues like should your employees who are also patients be able to use medical marijuana while working. That’s still a polarizing issue within the industry. I mean the industry is here to help people like that and they obviously employ patients. So you kind of have this industry still working through some issues. And then of course with the election coming up we ran a survey of our readers to find out how they would vote in the presidential election, and that got dozens of comments when we wrote that story where most of the industry favored Hillary Clinton, but there was a quarter that favored Donald Trump. So you have all these people weighing in on who would be better for the industry and who would create a more favorable climate. That’s the big topic right now.

Matthew: Gosh and I think like a Gary Johnson would be the best for the industry but he can’t even seem to get into the polls so people don’t even know who he is.

Chris: Yeah and he was an option in our survey and he polled well. I think it was roughly 15% or so said they would vote for him, but I think there’s a lot of people that on the marijuana issue he’s clearly the favorite, but people are taking into consideration other factors beyond just marijuana even if they support it. So people in the industry, I think the realists say okay it’s going to come down to these two candidates, Trump and Clinton, and so I’m going to cast my vote for one of them rather than “waste” it on Johnson whether you believe that’s a wasted vote or not. He’s probably not going to win.

Matthew: Right. Well let’s pivot to the conference, your twice a year conference. I was there in Orlando in May and now you have another coming up in October in Vegas, but I’m sure a lot of listeners have been to the conference but for listeners that have not, describe what they experience when they walk onto the conference floor and what they learn when they go to the panels and so forth.

Chris: Yeah and actually our next one in Vegas is in November.

Matthew: November, sorry about that.

Chris: Yeah it’s actually a week after the election so there is going to be a massive amount of buzz at the show. Everyone is going to be talking about whatever happened on election day and we’re going to analyze that and talk about how that may impact businesses. So that will be the big focus obviously of some of the conference. I mean in general the reason we even started this in 2012 is because either people that want to get involved or that already are involved in running businesses they need to gather and they need to network with each other and talk about their common problems and try and come up with solutions. So networking is actually a big part.

Then we have a massive expo hall in our Vegas show coming up with 300 exhibiters. So there’s commerce that happens at this too. People are hooking up with partners and services and products to help their businesses grow. And then of course there’s the content side too where we have three days of sessions that explore all the big business issues that entrepreneurs and executives are facing. And then we have people like Penn Jillette is our keynote. He’s a hardcore libertarian who believes in states’ rights so he’s going to talk about how he views marijuana and he’s a fascinating guy with a lot of wisdom and insight. I’ll be talking about the industry fundamentals and some of our projections and giving an update on kind of the state of the industry. Then we have sessions on everything from banking and taxes, as we talked about before, to overarching issues about what coming down the bend, around the bend regulatory-wise. So it’s a great place to network and learn about issues in the industry and hopefully learn things that you can take back to your business to improve it.

Matthew: Penn Jillette, that’s a fascinating character. He has a real ability. I don’t know if it’s because of his magician training or experience, but he has a way of phrasing things that can kind of crack people out of their typical mode of thinking and their perception. It’s pretty interesting.

Chris: Yeah and he won’t hold back on his views, and I’m sure people are going to be thrilled to hear him. He will probably rail against the government’s policies on marijuana and drugs in general. Yeah he’s pretty outspoken and I think it’s going to be entertaining.

Matthew: Looking back at previous panels are there any that kind of jump out at you as being really valuable or you got feedback from attendees that said hey I learned a lot here?

Chris: Yeah I program the conference so I believe that all of them are valuable, but to your point. We’ve had one in the past where we talk about if and when Big Tobacco, Big Agriculture, Big Pharma basically big business is going to come into this industry and those are always very packed sessions. People are afraid. This has been a mom and pop industry and that’s how it started and in large part that’s how it still is today, but it’s moving away from that and it’s moving towards big business and corporatization. So people really want to look forward and say what is this industry going to look like in the future if legalization occurs or if the government kind of relaxes its rules on marijuana. We’ve done that kind of a session twice and it’s always immensely popular.

Matthew: In terms of getting a booth, I know you have a lot of exhibitors that they get the booth every year. They already book it right away. Is there openings still to rent a book and how should people thinking about it if they’re on the fence or considering renting a booth. Is it too late?

Chris: Well on the booth side it’s too late. We have several dozen companies on the waiting list. We sold out months ago. Again we’ll have 300 booths. We sold out our entire space at the Rio in Vegas. Next year we’re moving to the convention center so my advice would be start planning for our event in the Spring in D.C. or Vegas next year because we do sell out. Always we sell out our booths and we’re going to continue to grow as the industry grows, but again we sold out a couple months ago. There are other opportunities to get your name out there.

We have other sponsorship and exhibiting opportunities that aren’t necessarily booths. So contacting our sales department is a good way to see what’s out there, but yeah I would start planning for next year. And I would say to your point earlier there are a ton of conferences out there and do your due diligence before you go. Even before you go to ours, I mean, it’s very well respected and we get industry leaders and have cutting edge content. There’s other ones that are good too but there’s a lot of duds out there. And that’s why we’re seeing some consolidation because people in the industry are going to some of these and realizing how poorly planned and produced they are. So most people are going to just a handful of these, but like I said we’re going to have 7,00 to 8,000 professionals there. If legalization goes really well, we could have 10,000. Who knows.

Matthew: Okay. Now let’s turn to the fact book. Can you tell us what that is and what listeners might find in there?

Chris: Yeah we started doing this a couple years ago because we just realized there was a huge need for information and data in this industry and it really didn’t exist. I mean you have no federal data because it’s illegal and they don’t track anything with the industry and then most states, especially a couple years ago, didn’t really track anything either. So it was really hard to get your arms around the size of the industry and all the fundamentals. As I mentioned earlier, average profits, average revenues, startup costs, all these things that are available for other industries weren’t for this one.

So we started doing this massive research report every year, and we break down state markets and talk about where we think sales are, a number of businesses operating and kind of compile all of that into a national picture too. We do estimates on retail sales nationwide through 2020 and there’s just a ton of data in here, again, that doesn’t exist really anywhere else. So that’s why we started to do it. You are seeing more companies, data companies get involved in this industry which is a good thing and states are now tracking the industry much closer so there’s more data than ever before available. Things like how many companies are there in the industry and how many jobs are there and what are annual sales, that type of data is very hard to get and that’s kind of what we focus on.

Matthew: You’re seeing cannabis stories so there’s probably not too much that surprises you, but when you glance over that book was there anything that jumped out and slapped you like wow this is much more than I originally had thought?

Chris: Well it always happens. When we do it every year there’s always surprises and especially when we dig into, we do big surveys of professionals in the industry to get an idea of their fundamentals for their business and there’s always interesting things that we see there in terms of concentrates and infused products becoming a much much bigger part of the industry and moving in the direction of one day you’re SERP-ing sales of flower, of marijuana flower. So there’s always things like that that give us insight. I’d say the profitability levels of businesses in this industry was one of the things that stood out to us that a lot of businesses are profitable.

Now 2ADE in this tax issue hurts that to some degree and shrinks the profit margins, but in general a lot of businesses have been able to historically reach profitability very quickly. Often in a matter of months. You’re seeing that change a bit now though because of the huge regulatory burdens, the caps on licenses where you have to spend a million to even get involved and there’s only a few licenses awarded. So it is taking a bit long to reach profitability in some markets, but in general it’s much better than they business community at large. So always things like that that we see each year.

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Matthew: Circling back to the conference for a second, is there any strategy you would advise for someone attending for the first time in terms of getting the most out of it, attending the right panels, meeting people, strategy on the floor because sometimes, Vegas is a big place, you have a huge conference. How do you prioritize to ensure you have an optimal experience?

Chris: Yeah that’s a good question. I mean we always look at that and reassess it and figure out how can we meet everyone’s needs. We do have our crash course which is kind of a one day, one-on-one level overview of the industry, everything you need to know if you want to get involved in the business and need kind of the bigger picture of the challenges you’re going to face and the opportunities. That’s separately ticketed from the main show but that always sells out. We’ve gotten 900-1,000 people in that in the past. So that’s truly for newbies who just want to know about the industry and how it works. So that kind of hits that segment.

Then the rest of our conference is aimed at people already in the industry. The newbies benefit immensely by being there and learning at that level, but we really want to target the business operators that are in it now and want to talk about and learn about the issues they face and how to improve their businesses. So you know we offer a variety of different formats and that’s another thing where we’re unique. We have the big keynote with Penn Jillette speaking from a broad perspective, an outsider’s views on legalization of marijuana, but then we have workshops on extraction and we’re going to have one on finding a bank account. Then you have the bigger panels and discussions that are also drilling into key areas of the different niches in the business, in the industry and what they face. So we try to offer something for everyone. So I guess the strategy would be to really examine the agenda and the separate events and see where you’re at in the industry and where you think you would benefit most, but I would have to say the networking aspect is huge and a lot of people go just for that. Whether it’s on the exhibit hall floor or in our networking events or the dozens of after parties that are going to be held in association with out event kind of on the side by other groups. So a lot of people come back and say just the pure networking was the biggest benefit.

Matthew: One panel I really enjoyed, it was a panel, one speaker I really enjoyed in Orlando was the gentleman that spoke about demographics and looking at demographics for your marketing the different generations, GenX, Baby Boomers and Millennials because there really is a huge difference in how we perceive things and we all like to think we’re unique snowflakes but a lot of it has to do with the generation we come up in and there’s so much similarity there and I was shocked to see just how much there is and just how you can craft your marketing or brand to different generations to get a desired outcome. So I thought that was pretty cool.

Chris: Right, and that’s another thing we try to do at these is bring in outside experts in the business community in general that can apply their knowledge and expertise to this industry specifically that a lot of business owners overlook. So the average infused products company or retail store/dispensary is probably not thinking when they’re marking along the lines of generations, but you can see how that would be so useful. You have the older patients, you have the younger ones, the Baby Boomers and things resonate differently with each of them so you can craft your marketing message to them differently. So that’s another thing. We’ve had a former executive from Starbucks talking about how you create kind of chain stores and a brand and a consistent experience. So that’s the other thing we try and do at these shows is bring in people like Chuck Underwood, the gentleman you were just referring to.

Matthew: Yes, yes. Let’s pivot to a couple of personal development questions Chris. I like to give listeners a sense of who you are and maybe some things that have been important to you in your past. Looking back over the course of your life, is there a book that stands out that has had a big impact on you and your way of thinking that you would like to share?

Chris: I don’t think there’s been a specific book. I mean I’m a heavy reader, but I don’t think I’ve read kind of a life changing book that shaped my views on the world. It’s more just getting out there and experiencing things. I’ve read a lot of business books that I found were beneficial, but beyond that I’m basically a big Earnest Hemingway fan and he kind of got me into reading in general. Yeah I guess in general a lot of the books I’ve read kind of have taught me empathy in general and I try to apply that in my personal and professional life.

Matthew: Great points. I’ve read so many books in my life but I still have a good memory of The Sun Also Rises, For Whom the Bell Tolls and the Old Man and the Sea, those books are just so incredible. Even now you just pick them up, they’re just amazing.

Chris: They’re still good yeah. They still resonate. Yeah so he really got me into reading in general. I owe that to him because it opened up a lot of doors in my life and in my mind.

Matthew: Is there a tool, web-based or otherwise that you consider indispensible to your productivity that you would recommend?

Chris: I think no I’m actually pretty simple. I mean it’s Outlook and my smartphone and all that kind of stuff. I mean we have internal tools that we use like SalesForce that have been immensely helpful on the editorial side for keeping track of our massive source list, but other than that it’s just a lot of the basic everyday things that people use.

Matthew: Okay as an editor give us one grammar mistake you see over and over again that we could fix, everybody could fix to be a little bit better writer.

Chris: I think when writers refer to companies in the plural, like a company in the plural. If it say their, referring to it as a group. That works if you’re talking about executives of the company but a business or a company is an it. So I see that all the time in writing and in other media as well and sometimes among our own reporters. But I think that kind of has been adopted because of casual conversations when you’re saying they, when you’re referring to one company. So I see that a lot in professional writing and that’s one of my pet peeves.

Matthew: Good one, good one. I’m sure I’ve been guilty of that one.

Chris: A lot of people are. And I would say the other one is kind of the which vs. that issue. A lot of people use which when they should use that and that when they should use which.

Matthew: Good, good ones. Well Chris in closing let us know how listeners can find Marijuana Business Daily and get daily alerts on all the best news stories, how they can find the fact book and how they can learn more about the conference.

Chris: Yeah is kind of the portal into everything we do and that’s our daily news and analysis site, and then from there there’s links to our conferences, our fact book, contact information and kind of everything we do. So we do have a daily newsletter that goes out Monday to Friday with our kind of exclusively on our site stories that our reporters research and write. We have professional reporters who have been trained in journalism, have been working at newspapers and magazines and for online outlets, their careers. We’re professionals bringing professional news and analysis and that’s kind of what makes us different. A lot of people are kind of aggregating content or just having people in the industry write guest columns. We have people putting together fresh, unique stories every day that affect business owners and really taking that business slant. So we have this newsletter you can sign up for. It’s free. It goes out every day. If you’re a professional in the industry, you can get out magazine, Marijuana Business Magazine, you can get a free subscription to that. We don’t charge for that for people in the industry.

Matthew: Great. Well Chris, thanks so much for coming on the show today. I look forward to seeing you in Vegas.

Chris: Terrific, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Matthew: If you enjoyed the show today, please consider leaving us a review on iTunes, Stitcher or whatever app you might be using to listen to the show. Every five star review helps us to bring the best guests to you. Learn more at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/itunes. What are the five disruptive trends that will impact the cannabis industry in the next five years? Find out with your free report at www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com/trends. Have a suggestion for an awesome guest on www(dot)cannainsider(dot)com, simply send us an email at feedback(at)cannainsider(dot)com. We would love to hear from you.

Please do not take any information from CannaInsider or its guests as medical advice. Contact your license physician before taking cannabis or using it for medical treatments. Lastly the host or guests on CannaInsider may or may not invest in the companies or entrepreneurs profiled on the show. Please consult your licensed financial advisor before making any investment decisions. Final disclosure to see if you’re still paying attention. This little whistle jingle you’re listening to will get stuck in your head for the rest of the day. Thanks for listening, and look for another CannaInsider episode soon. Take care, bye-bye.

Chris Walsh is the Editor of Marijuana Business Daily. Chris discusses the top trending stories in the cannabis business ecosystem and how they will affect events in the near future. Listen to this podcast on your Smartphone for free.

Key Takeaways:
[2:37] – Chris’s background
[3:37] – What is Marijuana Business Daily
[6:10] – Marijuana topics in the news industry that are persistently important
[9:08] – Chris’s perspective on the change in the industry over the years
[12:03] – The biggest news as the November election approaches
[15:47] – The strength of California’s marijuana industry
[17:18] – Most controversial topics in the cannabis world
[20:21] – Chris talks about the Marijuana Business Conference experienc
[23:13] – Chris talks about previous panels that have gotten great feedback
[25:54] – What is in the Fact Book
[29:55] – How to get the most out of the Marijuana Business Conference
[33:59] – Chris’s personal development
[36:57] – Contact details

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