Ep 303 – Is The Market For Cannabis/CBD Products Saturated?

chris abbott botanica

Is the market for CBD and THC products saturated or is it just too much of the same products? Could it be a matter of creating a unique product and achieving product-market-fit?

Chris Abbott from Botanica is here today to help us answer these questions.

Learn more at https://www.mrmoxeys.com 

Key Takeaways:

  • Chris’ background in cannabis and how he came to start Botanica
  • An inside look at Botanica and its popular cannabis-mint brand Mr Moxey’s
  • What to expect when you eat Mr Moxey’s mints
  • Why microdosing is gaining popularity 
  • When and why people typically eat Mr Moxey’s mints to enhance their state and take the edge off
  • Mistakes Chris has made as an entrepreneur and what he learned from them
  • Chris’ advice on how to get a brand into distribution and on retailers’ shelves
  • Why Botanica uses a specific extraction process for the hemp oil that goes into Mr Moxey’s
  • Where Chris sees cannabis and low-dose edibles heading over the next few years
Click Here to Read Full Transcript

Matthew Kind: Hi, I'm Matthew Kind. Every Monday, look for a fresh new episode where I'll take you behind the scenes and interview the insiders that are shaping the rapidly evolving cannabis industry. Learn more at cannainsider.com. That's C-A-N-N-A insider dot com. Now, here's your program.

Is the market for CBD and THC products saturated or is it just too much of the same products? Is it a matter of creating a unique product and achieving product market fit? Chris Abbott from Botanica is here today to help us answer these questions. Chris, welcome to CannaInsider.

Chris Abbott: Hi, Matt. It's great to be here. Thank you.

Matthew: Give us a sense of geography. Where are you in the world today?

Chris: Yes, I'm on Bainbridge Island, which is a 35-minute ferry ride from Downtown Seattle.

Matthew: Great. I've been to Bainbridge. It's a very nice little island. What is Botanica on a high-level?

Chris: Yes. Botanica at a high-level, it's a cannabis branded consumer goods company and we are focused on edibles. We have a house of brand strategy. The way we think about it is we've got licenses in Seattle, in Portland, Oregon. We incubate brands in the Pacific Northwest. Once we feel like we've fully developed the consumer proposition behind the brand and understand the growth drivers, then we begin to utilize a network of partnerships in other states to roll our brands into those states. The brands that we have in our portfolio are Mr. Moxey's, Journeyman, and Spot. That's in a nutshell.

Matthew: Okay. Can you share a little bit about your background and journey and how you got into the cannabis space and started this company?

Chris: Absolutely, yes. This journey really started with my co-founder, Tim Moxey. We went to business school together back east at Dartmouth Business School. When cannabis legalized in Washington State, you will recall it legalized in Colorado and in Washington at the same time. Tim came to me. I was pretty much the only other alumni that lived in Seattle at the time. Tim came to me and said, "Chris, we got to look into this. It's going to be big." At first, I thought, "He's crazy. Cannabis? What is he talking about?" This was 2013, but he started peppering me with articles. As we began to dive into it, the more we learn, the more it felt like, "Gosh, there is an amazing opportunity here."

Out of the gates, we focused on edibles. The insight there was that for cannabis to go mainstream, in our opinion, it would have to be done with something other than an inhalable product because if you look at the trends, 12% of the population smokes tobacco. Okay, cannabis is something different than tobacco, but smoking, I think it's a decent proxy for the percentage of the population that is comfortable or wants to smoke, but to juxtapose against that is 70% of the population consumes alcohol. There's a big delta here, and cannabis was around 14% or is around 14% today.

Our thesis is that for cannabis truly to go mainstream, it would it would have to be on the backs of form factors like edibles to take us there and that brands would be able to reach out to customers, hold their hands and really educate them as to what this new world was like, what cannabis was all about. For us, it was going to be all about edibles and all about branded edibles. That's how we got going.

Matthew: Okay, what was it like going to Dartmouth, the school based on Animal House? Was it like Animal House at all? I know there's some wild rituals there. You guys have a huge bonfire in Hanover in the center of the quad every September? Is that what happened?

Chris: Yes. We went to Tuck Business School, which is right on Dartmouth's campus, but it's on the outskirts of the campus. There's definitely a pretty deep divide between the college and the business school. There were definitely people in our class that went to Dartmouth and had some connections to the frat houses, but by and large, we didn't spend a lot of time on the campus connected to the college. Mostly, we were in our own world. I think that's one place Dartmouth really prides itself in on its networking. It's a fairly small class size relative to other business schools and because you're isolated in Hanover, you just develop these really deep friendships with your classmates. We didn't have a lot of interaction with the college kids.

Matthew: Okay.

Chris: It was a great place to go to school though.

Matthew: Yes, it's a beautiful town. A lot of people don't even get that reference of Animal House anymore, and I'm like, "Wow, that's crazy. That's not in the cultural reference point anymore." If you've never seen it, check it out. It's a really funny movie. Tell us a little bit more here about your products and your brands, because you go the way of not highlighting milligrams of active ingredients like CBD or THC, but you go a different route. Can you talk about what that is and why?

Chris: Yes, for sure. I think ultimately, everything starts and ends with the consumer. We believe that the consumer is not looking to make purely functional decisions. They want some emotion. They are looking for choices that either jibe with their internal beliefs or they see something that they like that tastes well or that goes with their internal compass. To think about a product as only the number of milligrams in it, it feels like it's not really doing the category justice. To draw a corollary with alcohol, if you were to go out and buy a bottle of whiskey, say a 750ml bottle of whiskey at 80 proof, you could spend anywhere between $12 at the low end to $200,000 at the high end.

That entire market exists today. It feels like in the cannabis market, we haven't developed that broader range, obviously. There's a lot of people that are chasing the current consumer. Now obviously, we've got a win with the consumer today, but really always have an eye towards the next consumer that's going to come in and that's a 2.0 consumer. The consumer that is looking for brands, and is looking for an experience, is looking for an emotional connection. That's really what we're trying to do with our brands, rather than trying to compete on just a price per milligram level.

Matthew: I'm always interested in how a founder describes the effect of their product. People are very curious, "What's this going to do to me after I take it?" How do you describe what a customer feels when they take Mr. Moxey's, for example?

Chris: Yes. One thing that we've done is gone out of our way to tell the customer right on the package exactly how they're going to feel. We have these mood states that are curated throughout Mr. Moxey's range. It's anywhere from energized, to relaxed, to relief or dream. Really, the way we're driving those mood states is we incorporate herbs into each SKU. The herbs not only help us drop the mood states. For dream, we have passionflower and valerian root. People that consume herbs on a regular basis understand that those help them with sleep.

To think about cannabis as just another herb that you can incorporate into your day, I think is a really interesting way to approach cannabis and also understand how it's going to feel or how it might affect your mood.

Matthew: Do you notice any synergies when you start to put together these ingredients like valerian root? Do you say, "Wow, that has an even more impact than I would have guessed." Or it might be the feeling is I'm even more drowsy if want to sleep or something like that? What was your kind as you're experimenting with these with potions and everything to come up with the ideal recipe? What did you experienced?

Chris: We just launched the sleep mint. It took us a while to get there. We did a lot of experimenting around a bunch of other isolated cannabinoids to see if we could drive a more cannabinoid profile and ultimately ended up with herbs. One thing that's really interesting about being in the edibles space is that you can give out your product non-infused without the active ingredient cannabis in it to people so they can try your product. It's obviously something that you can't do with inhalation products. What we've seen with budtenders with this new sleep products, because we have these uninfused sleep mints that we give out that had the valerian root in it and the passion flower.

We got these amazing feedback from budtenders saying, "We want more uninfused samples. They're helping us sleep at night." Without even the cannabis in it. I think there's something there and I think it's an interesting realm to be able to play in.

Matthew: Okay. If you were to say the number one

Matthew: reason people are choosing a low dose option like Mr. Moxey's. Do they frame it in their mind that they don't want to run away high or do they frame it in their mind that I want to do some other activity? Those questions are related, but in the prospect's mind, what are they thinking, in your opinion?

Chris: The way we think about it is, it's all about choice and tailoring a product to their needs because we believe people want to experience what they want and that's what we give them with. When you're playing at the low dose, end of the spectrum, you can have one minute or two minutes or three minutes and really, by enabling the consumer to be in control, you're allowing them to then have the experience that they want and tailor it to their needs. When we got started in the industry, there was this famous Maureen Dowd article that came out in the New York Times.

I think it summarize a lot of people's attitude around edibles which was that edibles were out of control. It was this brownie experience that you had, if someone mixed up some butter with a brownie and no one had any idea how potent it was. Maybe when you're in college or you were on the set of Animal House, that might have been a really fun thing to do. Our products are targeted towards working professionals, people that want to be in control and know that they have to show up at a job next day or take care of their kids later in the evening and they want to be in control.

We really wanted to turn this idea of edibles that a ritual really on its head and say, "No, wait. Edibles are actually one of the best ways to maintain control and have a precise experience because we know exactly how many milligrams are in each edible." At the low end, now you can say that I can take one or two or three and you really are able to tailor it to your own experience.

Matthew: Let's talk about just specifically, the mint enhance. If you're trying to take the edge off a little bit, enhance seems like something where you're trying to add a little bit. Do you anecdotally get feedback about what people do when they're taking this? Are they working, relaxing, playing a sport, hiking? What kind of feedback do you get there?

Chris: I think playing at the low end of the milligram range is really interesting because at its core, having a cannabis heightens your senses. That's really rich territory. It just at the low end, it makes you feel a little bit different. It can help you be creative or present. We'll get interesting feedback. It helps me be my best possible self with kids at bedtime.

At the end of the day, when you're all stressed out, you're just trying to get the kids in bed, it just allows you to be a little bit more present and be there more creative at work, enjoy a bike ride. I think that at the low end of the dosing range, there's a whole world there to be experienced that we're getting constant feedback from consumers on how they're trying it and how they're using it. A lot of it dovetails with the experience that we broadcast on the front of the tin which relates back to the herbs about when that use state might be.

Matthew: There's a lot of startups that have or are trying to start products with THC or CBD in there. If they create a Me Too product, they're not likely to take off but if they can carve out a specific niche in their prospect's mind, a lot of times with their price right and get distribution, they can have success. On your journey, have you made any mistakes that you can share or talk about that you wish you didn't do but you learn from?

Chris: Yes, tons. I think given cannabis is I mean a brand new industry, brand new category. I think if you're not making mistakes in this industry, you're not learning, and if you're not learning you're not growing. I'm really proud of the mistakes we've made which are many. When we first launched, we launched with a brownie. We were taking all this risk of jumping into the cannabis space. I mean, when we first did it, I was scared to tell my mom what I was doing. It felt like you were committing career suicide almost by starting a cannabis business back in 2014. We thought, "Hey, let's do it, like a pot brownie. What's more traditional than that? We're not taking much risk.

If we put the pot brownie on the shelf, it will sell." Back in the day, we were really into low dose and continued to be that way. We wanted to release a product that our friends would enjoy and that we would enjoy. Then someone would try and say, "Hey, that's really nice. I'll tell my friend about that." We launched with a five-milligram brownie. The real learning there was that A, brownies are not very difficult to make so incredible competition would come into baked goods.

I think the real learning was that to play on the low end of the dosing range, you need to have something that you can have multiple of because you don't always want to have the lowest dose, you want to be able to, like what we talked about earlier, tailor your experience. That can be difficult with a brownie. How many brownies can you eat in a sitting?

Matthew: You're right, I can eat quite a lot.

Chris: Oh, can you? [laughs]

Matthew: Yes. You said if you're not learning you're not growing. Sometimes I eat brownies and I just grow, and I don't learn from my mistakes. [unintelligible 00:16:01] I'm getting wider.

Chris: We found that that's how Mr. Moxey's was born, was this idea that it's all very low calorie, just small format. You could have multiple of them without worrying about your waistline, I guess. It took us about a year to develop the product. In that time, this pot brands did very well because we were in market and things were going. To give you an idea that brownie today-- We don't even sell brownies anymore. We've discontinued that entire product and baked goods. Now, if you look at the categories, it's a very small percentage of the edible market.

Matthew: It really did start out strong and it's faded. Do you think it's because all the challenges around keeping baked goods fresh and stable and so forth?

Chris: Yes, that is a huge factor. Our big thing was to have it taste really, really good, and then have the experience be very consistent on the back end. We thought if we could do that, we had something. We'd have these brownies and you'd make them and then you try them, and man, out of the oven, they tasted amazing.

We were like, "That, we're going to kill it. These are the best-tasting brownies ever." Man, when you open that brownie, even three weeks later, it's a different product. It's very, very hard to create a super delectable delicious brownie that sits on the shelf and tastes that way three weeks later, and three weeks is nothing in the shelf space time, so much less three months later.

Matthew: You have a unique way of doing things. You're doing all your manufacturing in-house because you have a unique way of making your mints. Can you talk about the process and how it's different than typical mints are made?

Chris: For sure. It's very much an artisanal process. As you would expect with a British-oriented brand, everything starts with a T. We take the herbs that we've spoken about, and we mix them with water and create a T that then is the liquid that we mix with sugar to create a dough. That dough is needed and then sheeted to get to the perfect width and then we hand punch it through a custom machine that we built to do this to create the mints.

Then after that, they're air dried at just the right temperature and then ultimately, packaged and then ready for the store. It's this dough-base mint which are quite unique in the market. What it allows is a really nice consistency. What we found out early days, Tim and I were trying these things. We'd have all these test cases. I try this pot and I'd say, "This one is the one. This one tastes perfect." He'd come out with the total opposite when he'd noticed, "This is the perfect one." I'd say, "Well, what is going on here?"

It turned out, he'd like to suck his mints and take a while, it would stay in his mouth, and which is really interesting from a cannabis standpoint because if you supplement, you can begin to feel the effects through sublingual, whereas I just crunched mine and consumed them. When we were developing this dough, what we wanted was this perfect consistency, something that was very crunchy, but also if you were to suck it, would last in your mouth such that you could get this sublingual effect. That's what we have with that product.

Matthew: We have suckers and we have biters. If someone just jumped to this point and broadcast it like, "What the hell are these guys talking about?" Are people broke down the line there about 50/50 or what is it?

Chris: Well, it's interesting. When you talk to the budtenders. They'll often tell people to eat one and then suck one so that you get that sublingual effect right away and then later in, your digestive tract begins to kick and you get the feeling from the second one, but yes, I'd actually don't know what the statistics are around suckers versus users, but I know they're both a great way to enjoy our mints.

Matthew: What about getting your brand into distribution and onto retailer's shelves? Is that tricky? How did you go about that? Anything you can share there?

Chris: Yes, I think it really all starts with the consumer, and I think as we're developing our products, we're trying to really dive into consumer insights to figure out what does the consumer want? What will be successful with consumers? If you can create a product that hits on that cylinder then it's really easy to convince, not really easy, but it's easier to convince, I guess, a distributor or a retail partner to take it on. What we've done is sort of curate these mood states where you're-- and then it's the ability to tailor your experience and that's quite different. Most of the other competitors in the market have run towards whatever the maximum milligram is per unit. You could do that's kind of where everyone ran to. I think it's-- it starts with [unintelligible 00:21:17] kind of creating something unique. That's really driven from consumer insight.

Then the second piece of it is really creating a partnership with the retailer. I mean, ultimately the retailer is going to take your product in because they believe they're going to be successful and they believe it's going to be a profitable endeavor for them. Having a product with higher margins and not pricing on price per milligram, being able to carry higher margins on your product is amazing for the retailer as well. Really figuring out a way to partner with the retailers, such that we're able to educate the budtenders and have a great point of sale display, really showcase the products, such that it becomes very shoppable for the consumer having that all dialed in and you being able to deliver that to the partner, I think really helps you get into the retail stores that you want to be in and that are likely to be successful for the product that you're marketing.

Matthew: How do you get the budtenders to care about your product? I mean, they've got so many products they need to know about, different brands coming in and talking to them all the time. Anything you could share there to make your product relevant.

Chris: Yes. In a world with cannabis being federally illegal and advertising being very, very difficult. Obviously those channels are largely shut down and also potentially prohibitively expensive if you're just operating one or two states. We really over-indexed on packaging to really tell the story and created packaging that we have a tin for the Mr. Moxey's brand. The tin I think is a very relatable package that people can understand. You've seen tins before and you can understand what the product is by just by looking at the 10, but then we overlay a tamper strip on the outside that has this really nice touch and feel to it and then relays all the information about what's actually in the package.

Then within the tin, once you open up the tin there's a whole experience, there's a liner paper inside the tin which kind of does two things. One said it had, there's some indication there on how the experience might go. As far as, it probably takes about 40 to 45 minutes before it'll kick in. Some guidance to the customer and the consumer around how to consume our product, but as well as we have an insert card in every 10 that greets the customer and tells them about our product and what's going on. I think when you put these products into budtenders' hands, and then you create great point of sale display to wrap around that such that you can-- the budtender quickly sees that hey, there's a lot of care and attention to detail, that's gone into this product. This is something special and that really comes across in the packaging and the point of display. Then if he can take the time to build those relationships in the stores whereby you're educating the budtenders as to why your product's special.

I think those efforts really go a long way but it is a lot of effort because there's budtenders, there's a pretty high churn in the industry with budtenders coming and going. It's a big endeavor to go out and educate budtenders and stay on top of that. That's, I think, what's nice about having really nice packaging, that's it's sitting on the shelf, it's talking to consumers and as the budtenders come in and out obviously the packaging is there and speaks for itself.

Matthew: What's the thought process around extracting oil that goes into the mints. I'm imagining you buy oil from partners and what do you look for in the oil? Do you want to maintain Terpenes, what are your thoughts around that?

Chris: Yes, we use CO2 oil for Mr. Moxey's brand, and for us, it starts with having partners that grow cannabis organically and pesticides are depending on the state where you're in. I mean, in Oregon, they have incredibly difficult and I think really good rules around pesticides, such that really there isn't much product in the market that has pesticides in it. Washington state, on the other hand, and I think California too really it's not as well tested. I think there are people that are using pesticides, but it's very hard to know. We go out of our way to make sure that we're getting organic source material that doesn't have pesticides in it. On the terpene side now, as we go through the CO2 process, obviously there's a lot of terpenes that are lost during that process and the terpenes today aren't as important to us.

I think the science is very early here on how terpenes play when you're ingesting something like an edible. It's much more built out on how terpenes work when you're inhaling cannabis, but not so much on the consumption front. When you smell our mint, it's going to smell minty or it's going to smell like cinnamon. You won't get a terpene experience, but I'm hoping, and I think this could be a really rich area for exploration over time as the science develops as to how terpenes might play a role in ingestion but today it's really not a focus of ours.

Matthew: What other kinds of discreet and low dose edibles do you think we'll see in the coming years that we don't see now?

Chris: If I go back to the intro, one of the things you said was are we at saturation? What's going on? Are there too many products in the market? I think we're just a blink of the eye into this. I think the industry is brand new and cannabis is really unique in that it can be, I mean, alcohol, you drink alcohol. That's it. That's pretty much the only way you can consume alcohol is by drinking it, whereas cannabis, my gosh, there's just every, almost every form factor you can think of, you can consume cannabis. I think we are just getting started and if you look at-- once again, you look back to alcohol during the prohibition era, all there was basically grain alcohol. You bought it because it was illegal.

You bought it in its most potent form because all the risk was around that transaction when you actually purchased it from that person that was when you could get busted.

You wanted to buy it in it's most potent form and then bring it back and then when you consumed it, probably consume it really quickly in its most potent form. As those laws relaxed, well, then you no longer had to suffer with grain alcohol and you could begin to experiment with alcohol and more palatable versions. Obviously that's, I mean, beer is what 5%. I guess some of these microbrew beers are more than that, but a Budweiser is probably about 5%, which is very, very low, I would equate to like a low dose edible. Even beer now has become new. We've kind of gone past that to these alcoholic seltzers, those have just taken the world by storm over the last year. You're still seeing incredible innovation and alcohol with a very tight set of consumption ability, which is sort of drinking. I think that there's an incredible opportunity in edibles and that we'll see a lot of really interesting things are on the come. From a use case, we've been really focused at first on how do we create products that will integrate into people's every day into their everyday rituals? It's a very personal product, and I think that that is where Mr. Moxey succeeds really well. It's something that I don't think there's lots of people choosing Mr. Moxey mints today. It's more of a product that you would take on your own terms, in your own time, but with that said, I think one of the next big frontiers will be products that fit into social situations, times when you'll products that are specifically developed to be had with friends, and that's been really, really tricky with cannabis because there are no-- I mean, for the most part, there are really no consumption lounges or if there are there, there's only a few of them and they're really focused towards inhalation, I think today. I think as the industry develops, there's tons of opportunity and especially I think there'll be a big opportunity around socialization.

Matthew: Okay. Where are you in the capital-raising process?

Chris: Thank you for asking that question. I feel like cannabis is this industry that's always starved for capital. Right now we are not raising cash. We've been really focused on getting to profitability and have achieved that. We've made some pretty big cuts at the end of last year to just tighten our belts and really get focused. We're on a path to break even. In fact, we broke even in the last couple of months, and to build a more sustainable business albeit a slower growth business. Once we've achieved that, we're really thinking about raising growth capital that we can then add to what we have now on a sustainable basis to take the top line up.

I think one of the biggest areas that we're interested in is on the CBD side. We play both on the THC side and the CBD side with the Mr. Moxey's brand and have found that it's really interesting on direct to consumer. In our limited experiments, we've seen a real uptake in the states where our THC brand already exists. You see great usage for our CBD brands. We're looking at around the summer, maybe early fall going out to raise our series D. We'll be looking to raise between 5 and 10 million. I think a decent portion of that will go to fund the CBD side of the business for our direct to consumer play.

Matthew: Well, Chris, I'd like to ask some personal development questions now to help listeners get a better sense of who you are personally. With that, is there a book that's had a big impact on your life or your way of thinking that you'd like to share?

Chris: Yes. It's interesting with the virus going around, obviously, we're all shut up in our homes. We love the public library. With that shutdown, I've turned back to my small personal library. There's this book that I've read several times. I started reading again recently, which is called The Art of Learning. It's by this guy named Josh Waitzkin. He was an eight times national chess champion and burned out and took up Tai Chi and then went on to become a martial arts world champion.

Now, I'm not a big chess player or do I do any martial arts, but what's so fascinating about this book and I think why it has had a really big impact on me is, like the title, he's super into learning and had the building blocks of how you learn something to really become a master and think about that. With someone who could be so cerebral and non-physical as a chess master to then turn that around and become martial arts expert is quite an extreme transition.

He has this amazing way of describing the learning process and it really gets back to this really understanding the fundamentals of anything that you're studying. If you can master the fundamentals then those fundamentals basically become inherent in your thinking. Then you can move past thinking about the fundamentals and incorporate those fundamentals to create new avenues of exploration and new ways of thinking really. I, as a person, I'm just insatiably curious and I love to learn. I think as it relates to the cannabis industry, it's been one of the amazing things about the industry.

By getting involved with it, it's a never-ending process around learning. That makes it incredibly difficult on some levels. Given the patchwork quilt that we have around regulation in every state, we have different competitors in every state we go to, there's different regulations around those saying, you name it, the packaging. Then on top of that, to obviously be successful with the business, you've got to understand marketing and sales and manufacturing and culture, how do you incentivize your people to do their best?

I've had to learn so much. This book really come into my thinking a lot. Just recently, it's been a pleasure to pick up and begin reading. Every time I read it, I learn more about learning, which is cool.

Matthew: What's the most interesting thing going on in your field, apart from what you do?

Chris: As someone who's intensely interested in brands and interactions with consumers, I think that the shopping experience is something that's under great change right now and I think it's really exciting. Really my eyes are on California. MedMen with their open style footprint in the store. And the ability to go up and actually grab a product off the shelf and read the back of the package has I think really opened up the industry to a brand new set of consumers.

We're seeing other retailers take that model and make it their own like Harborside, talking with the folks at Harborside. They went from that model where you had to go up to the counter and talk to the budtender and learn all about the product through this third person. When they changed their floor to be actually something where you grabbed a little cart or a little basket on your way into the store, and then you could browse the shelves and pick up products and put them in your basket and then check out, I think they said something like their first Friday that they changed their store layout was bigger than any 420 they'd ever had in their store.

As I talked about that blink of the eye and this idea of going mainstream, we're just not even close to being mainstream yet. The consumer experience in the store, I think is a big piece of that. The consumer is dying to understand what is cannabis all about? How it's going to make you feel? What are these products? The more that they can have interactions with the products, I think the better off that they'll feel about buying them.

Both from the way retailers are beginning to orient, and I think especially in California with this ability to actually shop it by touching it as well as the delivery services that are being developed in California, whereby we work really closely with Caliva. They are a partner in California that they manufacture Mr. Moxey's for us and they sell and distribute it for us. They're investing a ton of money into delivery systems.

They're creating a home page for Mr. Moxey's whereby the customer can go to the Caliva website but they can go within the Caliva website, go to the Mr. Moxey's page and learn all about our brand. I think the more access the customer has to like really educate and learn about what is going on here, the more likely it is to go mainstream. For me, it's just really all about that shopping experience and that development that we see going on at a very rapid pace right now.

Matthew: What's one thought that you have that most people would disagree with you on?

Chris: I think the hard way is the right way. My co-founder, Tim is going to laugh when he hears this because he's always saying, "Chris, you love the hard way." It's somewhat counterintuitive. We're in a culture right now. Amazon, everything's so easy. There's something about doing things the hard way and developing something that takes a long time that actually then you're able to stand the test of time. I've got a couple of examples in my life where I've chosen the hard way. It felt like I was crazy and people around me said I was crazy, but it worked out really well for me.

When I graduated from Tuck Business School, 70% of my class took jobs where the business came and did interviews on campus. It was very easy, not very easy, but it was right there for the taking. 70% of my class went to work for either consulting company or an investment bank. I had it in my head. I really wanted to do something different. I'd worked in investment banking, and I just wasn't interested in consulting because I wanted to be able to make decisions rather than Coke's decisions.

I really wanted to be an investor. I had to do all my networking off-campus. At that time was right about the time when, this was 2001 to just update myself here, the economy was in pretty bad shape, but the hedge funds had done quite well through the downturn. The hedge funds were hiring. I got a job through networking and fast forward five years hedge funds became one of these places where everybody wanted to work. I had all my classmates calling me and say, "Hey, what are you doing there? How is it? What's going on?"

I think by taking the path less traveled, I was able to find an opportunity where I could do something and really accelerate versus a lot of my classmates that were doing something that was a bit easier to do and I think the same can be said for cannabis. We were talking about when we first started it was so scary. If you thought about what it could be and I think as we're beginning to see what it is today, there's just this incredible opportunity to develop something and do something and at the time it was very much off the beaten path to go do it.

It feels like now that I've got six years under my belt in the cannabis experience, I can honestly say I feel like I'm just getting my feet underneath me. It is such a wild industry, and one that needs so much time in to really understand it and excel in it, but I feel really lucky to have gotten the start that I've gotten.

Matthew: Chris as we close, let listeners know how they can find your mints and also for accredited investors how they can reach out to you for your Series B.

Chris: For sure, thank you so Mr. Moxey's on the on the THC side is available in Washington State in Oregon, in California and we just launched in Massachusetts with our partner Revolutionary Clinics on 420, nice day to start. Then we also have a line of CBD products that's available online. It can be purchased anywhere in the country. You can find that at Mr. Moxeys.com M-R M-O-X-E-Y-S.com. Then please reach out to me if you're interested. chris@botanicaglobal.com B-O-T-A-N-I-C-A-G-L-O-B-A-L dot com.

Matthew: Botanicaglobal.com, that's what you said.

Chris: That's it.

Matthew: Okay, Chris, thanks so much for coming on the show. We really appreciate it and good luck in the rest of 2020.

Chris: Awesome, Matt. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

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