Oaksterdam University: The Harvard of Cannabis for Entrepreneurs and Growers

dale sky jones oaksterdam university

With the worldwide cannabis market projected to hit $32 billion by 2022, better training and information sharing will be paramount for industry newcomers in the years ahead.

Enter Oaksterdam University, widely known as the Harvard of Cannabis.

Since 2007, Oaksterdam has been the forerunner in providing the highest quality training offered in the cannabis industry and the first institution to address the growing needs of the marijuana movement, from patients to regulators. Such a focus has established Oaksterdam University as the first and only cannabis college with a comprehensive curriculum in cannabis business and horticulture.

In this episode, Oaksterdam Executive Chancellor Dale Sky Jones joins us to share everything the university has to offer for those looking to achieve success in the cannabis industry.

Learn more at https://oaksterdamuniversity.com

Key Takeaways:

  • Dale’s background in the cannabis industry and how she became executive chancellor of Oaksterdam University
  • The crippling federal raid Oaksterdam underwent in 2012 and how Dale took over to ensure the university’s continued success
  • Oaksterdam’s extensive curriculum and how the school determines its core programs and electives
  • How the university’s student population has expanded beyond the U.S. to 40 different countries since it was founded in 2007
  • Oaksterdam’s online versus in-person programs
  • How the university utilizes augmented reality in its courses
  • Examples of students who have gone on to achieve great success in the cannabis industry following their time at Oaksterdam
  • Dale’s advice to those looking to leave behind their current careers and enter the cannabis industry


Click Here to Read Full Transcript

Matthew: Hi, I'm Matthew Kind. Every Monday, look for a fresh new episode where I'll take you behind the scenes and interview the insiders that are shaping the rapidly evolving cannabis industry. Learn more at cannainsider.com. That's cannainsider.com. Now, here's your program. With the worldwide market for cannabis expected to hit 32 billion by 2022, one has to wonder, how are we going to educate all the people entering the industry? Here to help us answer that question is Dale Sky Jones, Executive Chancellor of Oaksterdam University. Dale, welcome to CannaInsider.

Dale: Hi there, Matt. Thank you so much for having me on.

Matthew: So great to have you. Give us a sense of geography, where are you in the world today?

Dale: I am in beautiful Oakland, California, in what is known as the Oaksterdam district.

Matthew: Oh, great. And I am in Austin, Texas. Dale...

Dale: Fantastic.

Matthew: ...tell us a little bit about Oaksterdam, background, history, what it is?

Dale: Well, the university itself was actually founded by a Texan. So throwback to where you are. But the original area was founded by Jeff Jones. And this was a 20 plus years ago, harkening back to trying to help the original medical necessity patients, and trying to just educate them on how to be safe with law enforcement encounters, what we call successful law enforcement encounters, as well as just how to grow your own garden. And that has blossomed over a decade plus. We founded an official school in 2007, we've trained over 40,000 students from 40 countries, and we're now online. So we're international.

Matthew: Oh, great. And can you tell a little bit about your personal background and journey and what brought you to become Executive Chancellor of Oaksterdam?

Dale: Well, quite by accident, I must say. It started out just as a volunteer. I was working with doctors in Southern California who were in mainstream medicine and wanted to do medical cannabis recommendations. And they needed someone to help them figure out how. And so it really just started as a business endeavor to help doctors be safe within the guidelines of a very conservative area. In the process, I learned that patients really walked out of the doctor's office into what amounted to a black hole. They weren't allowed to talk about what to consume or how much or where to find it. And so Oaksterdam University was really a passion project based on education, which is where I come from in corporate America, was as a corporate trainer. I think I always had that hankering to be a teacher. And then when I got old enough, I realized that it wasn't feasible, but never did I imagine running a pot college as [inaudible [00:02:52], I must admit.

But it started with Pot 19 [SP]. This was the blueprint to legalize cannabis. It was the first statewide initiative and we certainly bit off more than we could chew with California to start. But I was a pregnant woman talking about legalizing cannabis, and talking about putting family first and putting an end to the criminalization. And this is where it became a moral imperative. It wasn't just about patients trying to access their medicine, which in and of itself felt like a pretty important thing to work on. But it was also about the criminalization and specifically of our youth, of people of color, that this is actually the most important civil rights revolution of our time. And so I realized that my little sliver of trying to save the world was actually through cannabis policy reform. And I became an accidental spokeswoman for this campaign because I was first a teacher on the subject, and it was my students asking really good questions in my science class, of why and how, that I had to get pretty quick and short to the point for Fox News. And here I am now a decade later, after a rather horrid federal raid in 2012, I wound up taking over the school and expanding it from there.

Matthew: Can you just talk about that raid a little bit, because I remember reading about it and hearing about it, but just give listeners an idea of what happened, what it was all about?

Dale: Sure. Well, based on the segue from the political events that we triggered, we basically took money from cannabis, both the campus college, and the dispensary that our founder had and put it into politics. And so the Fed didn't like that very much. And in 2012, on April 2nd, we were visited by four different federal agencies. They took everything but the office furniture that day, and our founder was forcibly retired. And each of the employees that were longest serving in each of the businesses, myself in the school, another individual, Tim, took over the dispensary, and a third took over the gift shop. Eventually, I wound up rescuing the gift shop and the museum in addition to the school, and Tim, actually, recently just passed.

Matthew: I'm sorry to hear that.

Dale: Yeah, we also lost Big Mike this year, who was our horticulture technician, our lead hort tech for a decade. So it's been a tough year but our founder still meets me for lunch every month, at least I drag him out and he still signs wet ink signature on every certification that our students earn.

Matthew: Oh, great.

Dale: Yeah, he's still Professor Emeritus. He's still around, but he gets to spend more time with his mom in Texas. And in the meantime, you know, we've really had to just bootstrap it. You know, when they take everything but the office furniture, they take all your records too. So even if I had wanted to attract funding at the time, I couldn't have. And so now we're poised with some really exciting legacy projects. As I mentioned, we just went online. Our horticulture program is already available so it's easy to take from anywhere in your underwear at 2:00 in morning if you like. Although, if you do come to campus, we do require pants, and you can take it in one of two different ways. We have two different programs, a canna-business program, which starts out with all the basics that you really need to understand. We do have prerequisites and this is part of our moral imperative. We teach you what you need to know before we teach you what you want to know. And this is something that a lot of folks don't understand that's been carefully crafted based on our student body and their needs over the decade-plus that we've been doing this and the 150 plus faculty that contribute to the curriculum each and every week. We're having new updates and new additions, whether it be electives or core programs.

The second program is horticulture. And this is where we've really discovered those folks that just, you know, court hort and more hort. Well, we force legal upon you, because you have to know what not to do. But once we teach you what not to do, we teach you how to be compliant. And then we go on a deep dive with horticulture. And we just recently added an additional seminar option so that you can even take outdoor horticulture in a five-day "weekend," it's really a work week so to speak, where you can get hands on. And this is the only place in the world where you can plant a seed or harvest a plant from start to finish, and if you pass all your examinations, you will receive a certification.

Matthew: And how do you arrive at what exactly is needed, and then electives for what's wanted? Do you talk to businesses, kind of the ecosystem and say, "Hey, what exactly do you need?" Or are they coming to you and telling you? How does that work?

Dale: Yes, yes, and yes. We have a multitude of different ways that we determine our curriculum. And first and foremost, we speak to the regulators. One of the things that we started doing first was training those that regulate us. We actually received an award back in 2009 from the city of Oakland for teaching them how to tax cannabis. And then we went on to teach the second largest tax collection agency in the world, the Board of Equalization for two intensive days of training. So I joke with my students, you're welcome. I taught them how to audit you. But the thing is, is I taught them how to audit you in a way that doesn't put you at risk. We taught them about open book audit, so that they can go and learn the information that they need without taking copies that can then be subpoenaed and used against you in a federal court of law.

So there are ways to interact with the cannabis industry that's not only fair, but safe for all players. Such as, you know, which glasses to wear if you walk into a grow room? Where are the pinch points where you can either divert product or money or invert product or money? Inversion is just as concerning and bringing in black market product that perhaps hasn't been tested. So it's also who's regulating you from The Department of Health in the State of Florida or Maryland State, or we're talking with Jamaica, various government entities, as well as, of course, California entities up and down the state from municipal to the BCC and above, we worked on the Blue Ribbon Commission. And so part of it is also working with our law enforcement partners, working with our community partners or municipal partners to understand what's most important for the public health and safety and the public trust that we've developed. And of course businesses. Some of our most exciting success stories are the businesses that then come back and even teach for us and help us develop new curriculum. I get cream of the crop here.

And so I invite people to dip into the cool clear waters of Oaksterdam, because these are the students that have self-selected to be the best. And then they get to network with one another as well as the instructors that are often inherent in writing the very laws that they operate under.

Matthew: And where are most of the students from?

Dale: Pick a state, any state. I mentioned earlier, it's 40 different countries now are represented with Oaksterdam University. And so what I've learned, everywhere I go, man, and this is what just...it blows me away and I invite...I hope people, when they see me out about, come up and say, "Hi," and tell me what you've been up to. Because every time I walk into a room, any room, a conference room, a business room, an advocacy event, a patient event, somebody who's working on changing the law to somebody who's working just to pull up her own bootstraps at an equity event, a third of that room is Oaksterdam University alum. And it blows my mind. And this is what I charge them with is you need to now go back and change the world in your neck of the woods, because all politics is local, it starts with your city council. And I charge them with showing up, showing up to vote, showing up to be involved in their local community events. I charge them with leaving their community better than they found it.

And to ensure that they continue to advocate not only for the cannabis industry because we are all in the same boat together, and a hole on your side of the ship or my side of the ship, we all sink together, it's not your problem or mine. And we have to practice that collaborative competition, that we're all still focused on descheduling. At the same time, we're focused on figuring out our next business plan, because you can just put it in the shredder if we have this go the wrong way. Right now, 2EDE is something that affects us all. And so there are certain things we can agree on to advocate for. And I charge my students with doing that. And I think if we just demand that of one another. I ask people, before I go into business with them, are we intellectually aligned? Are we gonna help leave it better than we found it as we make money? Can we save the world? The answer is yes. And we can demand that of each other in this industry. We can demand more of one another and only do business with one another when we are intellectually aligned. And I think demanding that of one another is something that we can do to actually raise...not only raise the industry up, but advance the industry's needs as well as those of the patients that we serve.

Matthew: Now, can you give some color and context around some of the differences between the online learning and the in-person learning? I know you mentioned, you know, you have that five-day program where you can go on, plant a seed and so forth. But in what other ways does the online different from the in-person?

Dale: Well, and I also wanna mention for in-person, you have an option for semester where you're coming for 14 weeks and every week you come and you get more comprehensive training, additional horticulture if you're in the business program, additional horticulture if you're in the horticulture program. Now, the online learning, of course, you don't have the same hands-on experience with the cannabis plant that you would coming to the campus, but we also realized that it's expensive. In fact, it's more expensive to come to campus than it is to take the classes.

And so for people that are in a state, even where cannabis is not legal, you can still work with basil or rosemary or lavender and experiment and practice with things like manual extractions or, you know, planting any seed, because ultimately, you can learn how to pH water and understand the concepts of nutrients and practice this in a way that you can apply it to a work environment. If let's say, you're trying to figure this out while you live, you know, in Vermont, but you're planning on moving to another state where you're trying to get a job, you can still do a lot of these things. And one of the focuses that we have moving into 2020 that we're gonna be working on this year is augmented reality. Additional ways that we can have not just information but also infotainment. You know, we have to keep it fun.

I've been very impressed with the feedback that we've gotten from our online students. I've had some students take a couple of months to finish the course within the course of their normal lives and the responsibilities, their children and their other jobs. And I have...it blew my mind, I had people sit down and crunch it out over a weekend. But the response has been really fantastic, whether it's online or in-person. We have instructors and facilitators and student services that are willing and interested in...sorry about that, that are willing and interested in helping students to the next step.

And I wanna point out that regardless of whether or not you take Oaksterdam University at a seminar in Las Vegas, on campus in Oakland, or online from Italy, that when you do make it to Oakland, you're always one of our alum. Whether or not you even graduate, we wanna hear back from you. We wanna understand what you're doing with your education and how we can take the next steps with you.

Matthew: I've always thought that augmented and virtual reality have a real place in education, but just wondering how that's gonna come about exactly. I mean, how do you visualize something like that happening with like an Oculus Rift or something like that? Or how does that work?

Dale: Well, you know, there's a couple different things that we've looked into. And, you know, you can even look to these cardboard where you fit your phone...Yeah, really relatively inexpensive. There's different ways that you can use your phone to...then we've actually looked into virtual reality first. And notice I didn't say that, that that's something that I'm working on because I found that it might be prohibitively expensive, and part of what we try to do is keep our education accessible to as many people as possible and we found that just the production cost alone doesn't seem to offer the same return on investment that augmented reality is. Now, augmented reality is gonna have its place, and it's not gonna be every place. It's best when we're talking about things like machinery, when we're talking about specificity and repetition, because these are things that the augmented reality can help you with. It can also superimpose parts of the cannabis plant over what it's supposed to look like or what you're trying to do, whether it be detailed trimming activities, manicure and things along those lines, there's different ways that we might be able to do that.

And I think that there's also something to be said for visual learners. So maybe there's a different way that we can approach genetics that is not just your straight, you know, reading from a paragraph, and that I think is also really key with what we've tried to do with our online. This is not just dude on a whiteboard. This is professionals that we've hired from the world of academia that are taking subject matter experts who aren't necessarily, you know, trained professors in student learning outcomes, but these academics are. And we're finding ways to convert this information in ways that's not only applicable but retainable. The question that I ask my team all the time is, "What are our students gonna do with this?" This has to be actionable information. I don't just want them to have to come back to me over and over again, to figure something out. I wanna bridge them to the source so that folks can figure it out for themselves. That's truly teaching people how to fish, yeah? Or grow.

Matthew: And I wanted to kind of explain for people the difference between virtual reality and augmented reality. So virtual reality is a totally digital world that's fictional to some extent. You might be teaching something but doesn't exist in reality, whereas augmented reality, you actually have maybe transparent or semi-transparent glasses and you're looking at reality, maybe a real plant and then there's an overlay that's describing things about that actual real physical object or objects. Is that...how do you explain it, Dale?

Dale: Well done, Matt. And I would say that in application, let's say that you are working with a complicated extraction machine and you have a new employee. And that's a million dollar machine. You can have that employee put on a specialized set of goggles, where the augmented reality overlays a map of that machine and is training them step-by-step. And look, pilots and doctors, the people that we entrust with lives are the ones that use checklists. Yeah, so I think that there's also best practices, real-world practices. And this is what excites me most about our student-base. You asked, who are my students? Everyone. We have from 18 to 96-year-old graduates. They come as masters of their own universe, whether it's real estate agents, or teachers or firefighters or retired law enforcement officers. We have colored priests sitting next to nurses and doctors. I have MIT graduates and literal rocket scientists and heart surgeons sitting next to people that never graduated high school, because they were criminalized for actually being good at something that used to not be okay. We just changed cannabis from being contraband to commodity. And I believe very strongly that Oaksterdam was who ignited the debate.

Matthew: Yeah. Now, can you tell me what some of the most popular courses are right now? I'm sure that changes over time, but what are students asking for?

Dale: Right now, I would say that one of the...the two big ones are outdoor. We used to teach outdoor cultivation for a long time. And then all of a sudden, it was banned everywhere. And so we kept it in our semester course, but pretty much stripped it out everywhere else because we found out the students just didn't show up. They're like, "I can't grow outdoors, and why bother?" So all of a sudden, outdoor is allowed, thank goodness. I've been having this discussion on policy for ages, because I've had, for instance, regulator say, "Oh, well for a 'green industry,' you people sure are not, you know, carbon footprint sensitive," right? Well, for one thing, they're comparing illegal growers, you know, stealing public lands, who are just trying to pop off the largest harvest they can and then get the hell out. You know, so they're not worried about how many fish they kill, or pesticides they use. They're trying to get the best biggest bud.

Now, when you put them next to somebody who's trying to achieve a permit, you're talking about two entirely different people, but under prohibition, they're both the bad guy. So now under permitting, we're finally allowed to differentiate somebody who's doing it well and even give them points on their license when it comes to things like green practices, gray water reclamation or solar or just plain outdoor growing. This is a crop for goodness sake, you know, it's just a leafy green theory, likes the sun.

And I would also point out scientifically, you're gonna get a slightly better crop, because part of just even teach sea production, for example, you know, this plant is producing THC to repel insects as a sun-protected and an insect repellent. It's anti-bacterial, anti-microbial. So the more hardy that that plant has to be, the more it's going to produce in order to respond to environmental events. So I would say that we're starting to get there with LED technology, and that's, you know, part of their research and development that's fun and exciting.

The other thing that's really in demand right now is extraction. And we just added actually an advanced extraction class here on campus that we're working on promulgating online as well. So I'd say extraction and outdoor are the two that have been most exciting for us to work on new projects. And then, of course, the dredge is compliance. You know, we started teaching people how to operate safely and responsibly in the gray area. Now, we're having to teach them how to be compliant. So it's a bit different concept. But, you know, it's remarkable to realize, too, the differences, because we have some people say, coming from Texas where it's not legal yet. And then we have other people coming from Colorado where, you know, been there, done that. So it's having to keep everyone on their toes simultaneously when they're sitting side-by-side has been some of the greatest challenge. But taking the best practices from these folks and the knowledge that they bring, whether, like I said, it's a chef or a medical professional, they're making our industry better.

Matthew: Now, how can students successfully leverage their training at Oaksterdam into careers? Have you seen or do you have some examples of students that have successfully built that bridge and now are kind of in a zone of excellence that you could highlight?

Dale: Sure. And, you know, some of our students are investors who are making sure that they're not, you know, using what I call damn money, you know, they're putting their money on something that they don't really understand. They don't understand how to mitigate their own risks. And they've gone on now to, you know, conquer whether it's various aspects of a region in capturing multiple licenses and vertical integration all the way through training their staffs. I think what's most exciting for me to watch is the equity applicants. We have a lot of scholarships that we give out to both veterans and equity applicants, and watching them come in and just finally be put on the same footing and receive that same education. I've had students with resumes on, you know, Indeed or one of the...you know, monster.com for months and months trying to find a job. And then they come through our classes and they just add two words, Oaksterdam graduate, and all of a sudden, bam, job offers.

And so it's as simple sometimes as networking with one of the instructors that also happens to be usually either a business owner or a professional, you know, whether it be an attorney or CPA, you know, we try to put the experts of each particular subject matter in front of you. And oftentimes, they're hiring. We also have job boards, and we are about to launch Oaksterdam Business Association. So there's ways whether you are a small business trying to network with other businesses and just get a realistic good deal on insurance. Which on a side note, Matt, professional services that have been just taking advantage of the cannabis industry have been pissing me off for entirely too long. So I'm finally doing something about it. And using those 40,000 students as leverage to say we demand better, we demand better service, we demand better deals. And I know for me, insurance is our second line item every month. And so if I can get a better deal on insurance, that means I can pay my employees better, getting better quality health benefits, do other kind of flex spending plans or just even offer a vacation.

Matthew: Yeah. And do you see a lot of students from other industries or buckets of industries where you say, "Wow, that's kind of a lot of students that are coming from this other industry? That's like, at least, you know, a light bulb goes off in your head, like, "That's a pretty big chunk." Do you see that or is it just totally diverse?

Dale: It's pretty diverse. I would have to stretch to say that there's one over another. I will say that I've noticed one giant trend and that's the overarching what the students are doing with it in the sense of the first couple years, they were all patients. They were people just trying to figure out how to obtain their medicine or how to cultivate their medicine and how to do it safely and responsibly. And then all of a sudden, dispensary started popping up. And then it was, well, how do I get a job to a dispensary? And so we started training, you know, budtenders and then procurement and allocation, you know, which cannabis? And, you know, I joke, it used to be magic marijuana because the only thing we were regulating where the storefronts, but the growers were trying to figure out the extractors, the folks trying to make edibles or topicals.

And so we started to specialize in teaching people how to specialize. And then we had an investor class pop up and that didn't exist prior to, I would say, 2011 at all. And then poof, they disappeared. And then bam, they came back and then poof, they disappeared and bam, they're back with Canada. So it's been more observing the waves of investors and people wanting to start, own, become entrepreneurs versus people that are just flat out trying to get a job or start a career, versus those who are just DIY. Like, you know, I can do it myself, I grow my own tomatoes, I can do this too.

And one of the ways that people can interact with us is also with our affiliate program. If you have any one of these things, especially if you're an advocacy organization, anyone that purchases an online class through your link, we not only give you 50 bucks, we donate a matching 50 bucks to the nonprofit of your choice. And so if you're a nonprofit, that's 100 bucks every time you help somebody take an online class through us. And that's a way that you can actually fund your own nonprofit activities, whether they be political or advocacy to help patients or just, you know, your local YMCA.

Matthew: Yeah, that's great. And for listeners that are considering getting a certification but they're a little bit nervous about transitioning from a, you know, "safe career," can you offer any words of encouragement or talk about how some people make that transition, and it's not quite as scary as they might think?

Dale: Absolutely. Well, first and foremost, we are just good old fashioned first amendment organization, education is legal, knowledge is legal. And so whatever it is that you do here with Oaksterdam, not only do we honor your privacy, but you can come learn amongst like-minded individuals that are actually very similar to yourself. And so it's kind of nice, realizing that you're not alone, that there are other people out there that share the same interests as you and that you can not only bond with them, but work with them, whether it's, you know, for fun, for free, or as something that you're building towards a career. The other thing that you can find when you network are opportunities you never even thought of, and this was, you know, I joke that it was just a failure of my own imagination, as a young girl that I didn't imagine myself as running a pot college as a grown woman with a family of three kids. It never occurred to me that this is where I would be, but I couldn't be happier. And it's because I found myself doing what I was passionate about. And I didn't know what I didn't know until I got here.

And I realized that I spent my entire life preparing myself for this very expertise that I never could have imagined myself being so good at, and I would invite anybody else to try that too. You know, valor is not the absence of fear, it's what you do in the face of it.

Matthew: Yeah, well said. Well, Dale, I like to ask a few personal development questions to help listeners get a better sense of who you are personally. With that, is there a book that's had a big impact on your life or your way of thinking that you'd like to share?

Dale: I struggled with this question, Matt, because there are three books and I can't pick my favorite. So my favorite personal development books is "How to Win Friends and Influence People." And I'm talking the throwback from the field.

Matthew: Yeah, I read it. I know what you're talking about.

Dale: [Crosstalk 00:30:06] not even the new one. I don't even like the new one. I'm talking the classics here. This is something...you know, cliché is cliché for a reason. And it's just a new...it's a different way to think. And I first read this book as a teenager, and I wound up...I read it every time I'm on the plane, of course, now with three kids. I have it on the little audible because I can't...you know, if I look at a book, a kid will fall off the table. So I, you know, read it differently now, but you have to remind yourself of some of these good habits and "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is just simply a good way to live your life in a way that everybody wins. It's not a...life is not a zero-sum game.

The second book that really I think shaped my sense of humor, and is my fun place is "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy," and, frankly, anything from Douglas Adams. And those of you that have read it will just simply understand, and, you know, ultimately just don't panic. The third book, well, really anything by J. R. R. Tolkien. I lived in the world of "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings." And I think at a certain point, you know, fantasy and being in love with fictional characters when you're 12 instead of real people is maybe a good thing. So maybe diversity is also the name of the game, is just read a lot. I fear the man that only read one book. I look forward to conversing with the one that's read many. I think there's a quote about that.

Matthew: How about a tool? Is there a tool that you consider vital to your productivity or your team's productivity that you'd like to share?

Dale: My team uses two tools religiously. One is the Google Suite, just Google Docs, I discovered working on policy to have a lot of disparate people work simultaneously on one document once you get over the feeling that somebody is watching everything. The other tool we started using this year that I'll share my team has really enjoyed is called Asana, A-S-A-N-A. And it's a productivity tool that we use to keep people on track, on production, and on task.

Matthew: And I have a Peter Thiel question for you. And that is what important truth do very few people agree with you on?

Dale: This is the toughest question I think I've ever had anyone ask me that. And it's evil and wicked because I'm one of those folks that will talk you into thinking like I think. So if you don't agree with me on the face, you will by the time I'm done with you. I would say two things, once more, because I can't just stick with one. I would say recreational. It's a word that I battle all the time. And words are really powerful. And now that I have three kids, and I am a soccer mom, I realized that when you call cannabis recreational, moms think of their eight-year-olds and then it freaks them out and they vote no. And so, I shout from the mountain-top, especially towards like Colorado, please stop saying recreational, because you're freaking out the soccer moms and I don't want this to sound fun for kids. This is not what this is about. We have a responsibility as an industry.

The second is my philosophy towards life that, you know, like my CFO, will cringe at me when I say it out loud, but it's worked for me so far. You set out for success, you prepare for the worst, and then you wing it.

Matthew: Okay, that's good. That's good. I like that. You've got a little bit of yin and yang both in there. So makes sense.

Dale: Yeah, you just got to find your guard rails and then hope for the best. And sometimes you're surprised by what you don't expect. And you have to make sure that you're open to that too.

Matthew: Well, Dale, thanks so much for coming on the show and educating us. Can you tell listeners how they can learn more about Oaksterdam and connect with Oaksterdam?

Dale: Certainly. I'm hoping that anyone can just simply go to oaksterdam.com. Now, Oaksterdam is an amalgam of Oakland and Amsterdam. These are the first two cities to not only legalize but regulate the sales of cannabis. So oaksterdam.com. And you can find us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. You can #Oaksterdam and of course, we are @Oaksterdam or @OaksterdamUniversity.

Matthew: Great, thank you, Dale, for coming on the show today.

Dale: Thank you, Matt, so much, and I do hope that listeners will check us out. You can actually take a free sample class online. Anyone can do it, you just give us your email address. And you can take a class by yourself, check it out, see how you feel. And hopefully, we will see you soon, if not here, at an event upcoming.

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