Taxes, regulations, a thriving black market, and then COVID-19. How can cannabis retailers in California survive in this environment and serve their community?
Here to help answer these questions is Dennis O’Malley, CEO of Caliva.
Learn more at https://www.gocaliva.com
- Dennis’ background in cannabis and how he came to start Caliva
- An inside look at Caliva and how it compares to other cannabis dispensaries in California
- Why Dennis decided to end his partnership with Eaze and create his own delivery app for Caliva
- Pros and cons to using your own delivery app
- Why Dennis has partnered with Hypur to provide contactless payment options for customers
- How COVID-19 has impacted Caliva and where Dennis sees the company heading in the months ahead
- How cannabis consumer behavior has changed during COVID-19 including popular products and curbside pickup versus delivery
- Incentives and disincentives in the California marketplace that are making the black market three times bigger than the legal market
- Where Dennis sees cannabis heading in California and across the US in the next 3-5 years
Matthew Kind: Hi, I'm Matthew Kind. Every Monday look for a fresh new episode where I'll take you behind the scenes and interview the insiders that are shaping the rapidly evolving cannabis industry. Learn more at cannainsider.com. That's C-A-N-N-A-insider dot com. Now here's your program. Taxes regulations in a thriving black market and then COVID-19. How can cannabis retailers in California survive and thrive in this environment and serve their community? Who does help us answer these questions, is Dennis O'Malley, CEO of Caliva. Dennis, welcome back to CannaInsider.
Dennis O'Malley: Matt, thanks so much for having me. Great to be back.
Matthew: Give us a sense of geography. Where are you in the world today?
Dennis: I am in one of our support offices in the Bay Area. I'm properly social-distanced in my office. Our support center has mainly remote workers today, so there'll be about six or seven people in the office with me, in an office that generally has about 50 or 60 people.
Matthew: Okay. Wow, that's a big change. What is Caliva on a high level for people that are just joining the show or outside of California?
Dennis: At the easiest level, we make and sell cannabis products in California. At a broader level, we are a consumer products company who is very focused on the direct to consumer channel. We've really built over the last five years a, what we call, full spectrum vertical integration to support that business.
Matthew: I want to get into that a little bit in a couple of minutes, but for people that may not understand the size and scope of Caliva, can you just talk a little bit about the size and footprint and maybe compare it to some other cannabis retailers and consumer brands in terms of size and scope?
Dennis: Sure. We're absolutely focused on California. In the Bay Area, we have four either-- We have three stores. We have two cannabis in store retail locations in the Bay Area. We have one hemp-based CBD retail location in the Bay Area, and we have a delivery depot also in the Bay area. Then in the greater Los Angeles area, we have three operational sites. We have a in store experience in Bellflower, right outside of Long Beach, we have a delivery depot outside of Culver City, and then we have a distribution center down in North Hollywood. Bay Area and greater LA is our focus areas.
Matthew: It's not that the Bay Area has light traffic, but LA has quite bad traffic when this virus wasn't going on. How do you compare the two in terms of how much foot traffic, and the density of people, and things like that? Do you have any shorthand in the way you compare the two markets?
Dennis: I don't today, simply because it's wildly different, certainly within shelter in place in the traffic patterns in both locations. Pre-COVID, the best thumbnail to look through is just that the LA traffic is generally worse than the Bay Area traffic, so the delivery radiuses are generally smaller in the LA area versus the San Francisco Bay Area.
Matthew: You've made the bold move to end your partnership with the very popular delivery app, Eaze and go your own way, can you talk about that a little bit?
Dennis: Sure. I think it's important to remember that we actually had our caliva.com and our delivery infrastructure up and running before our operational partnership with Eaze. As a operational and depot partner with them, we partnered with them for the last couple of years. While we continue to partner with many different delivery companies on our products, in that we make products and we sell products through many different channels, including over 250 dispensaries up and down the state and many other delivery companies.
What we exited out of was an operational partnership with Eaze from our depots to be able to really focus on caliva.com and that caliva.com experience. We wanted to both go beyond on-demand delivery and really what we wanted to focus on is what we saw is an elevated consumer experience. I think that's generally seen from just what our success rate has been from our online reviews.
Matthew: In the medium term and long term, this is probably a great move, but in the short term, is there any hiccups, or any loss of revenue, or anything like that, that you just said, "Hey, we're just going to get through this. This is what's best for Caliva and our visitors."
Dennis: I think it's a great question. At Caliva, we've generally taken longer-term views in terms of where we believe the market should be in and where we want to go. We've sometimes zigged when others have zagged, but we're all in this to build the next great American consumer brand. We really believe the ability for Caliva to offer an omni-channel solution to customers was the right long-term focus to improve customer experience and really to drive long-term customer loyalty. That omni-channel experience of being able to go into a store, being able to have pickup, if you need pickup or be able to have a product delivered to you, again, not just on-demand but also through scheduled delivery, was very important to us.
Yes, there was absolutely a change in terms of a drop off of our on-demand deliveries when we exited with the Eaze partnership. What we found is just an increase in, I would say, things like average order size, customer retention, customer feedback, and online ratings. That's what we're really trying to build towards.
Matthew: I can understand why you did that. I could see why Eaze has a lot of benefits for people, but at the same time, if you sell on Amazon, which a lot of people do, you're on a platform that you can be kicked off of, they control the rules. As we were reading now in like the Wall Street Journal and some other news websites, Amazon collects data on some of their customer products or they're alleged to doing this, and then creating rivaling products. Then you're kind of left out in the cold. You're not on equal footing because they have the platform and you don't, so I can definitely understand this.
Then, like I said, in the medium term and long term, it seems like it's a smart move. Also, there's probably a lot of flexibility in terms of what you can do and the experiments you can run and directions you can take it to customize the experience. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Dennis: Yes, sure can. I agree with you on the differences between Amazon, for instance, and going directly to a product company for fulfillment. We took a different, I'd say, guiding principle in terms of this move. What we really looked for is this informed consumer. What we're finding is consumers really care about where they actually spend their money. I think it's more prevalent today in the time of COVID, and unemployment, and everything else. If there are limited discretionary funds in terms of where you want to be able to purchase something, you really want to purchase something with a company that you know, that you trust, and that's not just the brand, that's not just the product but that's the service.
What we really leaned into is the notion that consumers really wanted to be able to go to the source. We grow over 10,000 pounds of indoor high-quality flower and produce hundreds of thousands of products a year within San Jose. When a consumer in the Bay Area is ordering from us, they're getting it truly fresh from the farm. What we really wanted to see is does this thesis make sense where sometimes consumers want to go into the store, sometimes they want to get pickup, sometimes they want delivery.
What we really found is that the trusted capability around straight from the source, doing what you said you're going to do on delivery, meeting those types of delivery expectations, having good followup, and sometimes just being able to pick up the phone and ask somebody a question, and having somebody there on the other end was a very big deal. Those were the types of things that we really focused on and have seen great customer feedback when we've really implemented those and continue to iterate on some of those offerings.
Matthew: I didn't realize that was a bigger care about in the mind of the customers, they wanted to see all the way through. We want to understand your whole supply chain, who Caliva is, what's behind it, what's your farms, and know that you're handling it from beginning to end, so I can understand the story better instead of a nameless intermediaries handling it. How fresh is it, where did it come from, how is it handled?
Dennis: We 100% agree. Our thesis has always been that cannabis is a very challenging consumer journey. That there's a lot of information out there, especially if you're a new consumer. People, in general, want to be able to go to people that they trust for a recommendation. Pre-COVID, that trust was in our stores, and people spent 12 to 15 minutes with us before they made their first purchase decision. Now, we found that in our peak, Matt, we had over 3,000 customer interactions in a day, whether it was online through our chat, through our phones, or through emails, simply being able to ask questions and engage our wellness consultants.
There's this voracious appetite for people to still connect with people around cannabis. It still is a very highly considered purchase when you look that people are averaging, for our deliveries, it's over $100 per delivery. It's still a lot of money. They're putting something into their body because they want to achieve a certain state. We believe all of that combined, what consumers look to the most is trust.
Really, we have continued to aspirationally been trying to guide Caliva to be the most trusted name in cannabis, which really goes throughout all of our ethos in terms of what we built. That is what we think that consumers are looking for is a trusted product, a trusted brand, and a trusted service.
Matthew: This is interesting because you kind of have like a flywheel effect here where we have the chat, the email, you go to the website and you learn, you have delivery, all these things feed into and reinforce each other in a way. Do you feel like generally is there a difference among demographics and how they first engage with you and then follow-up engagements? Is it over a certain age, more comfortable going to the store the first time? After then on that, they go to the app or they call but they don't do chat. Anything you notice there?
Dennis: Mainly anecdotal data. We're trying to get much better in terms of I'd say prescriptive online data through what we would call progressively profiling our consumers so that we know who they are and what preferences that they're looking for. I would say that anecdotally, what we've seen is that the boomer generation, generally is coming to Caliva based on a word of mouth from a trusted friend.
It is notionally, "I have somebody who's recommended you Caliva or these products for what I'm looking for." In our hemp-based CBD concept store, which is a non-licensed store within San Carlos, California, when you have hemp-based CBD there, you don't need a cannabis license for that. Think of it on main on main, in a town where there's no cannabis dispensary 30 miles north of 30 miles south. What we find in there and those customer interactions, that is mainly prevalent around, "I need to be able to sleep. I have some anxiety and my friends recommended me to come in here and look at these products."
I think for younger generations, their points of reference are largely based on at least anecdotal data on what just the online reviews are. Given that we have thousands of reviews that are in the 4.5 to 4.8 ranges, I think, whether it's Google, Yelp, Leafly, Weedmaps, et cetera, that those are places that people look to, to help with their purchase considerations as well.
Matthew: How closely do you look at suggestions, "If you liked this, you might like this." Or how do you know what the right products are to suggest if someone's ordering in an online way? Where you say, "You're looking for flower, this is popular, or this is a good companion." Do you put data behind that or you just go with what budtenders are saying? How do you do that? How do you manage what--? If they came in the store to buy flower or an edible, how do you suggest something else they might like and feel pretty confident there's a good chance?
Dennis: It's certainly not an exact science, and I think there's art and science to it. While we have a great data analytics team and I think we have the industry's best technology team that underlines and tracks most of the consumer consumption, everyone's individual, whether it's preferences or just biomechanics are different within how they ingest and react to cannabis. It is very much an art and science, but what we can at least say is that we can provide as much data as we can for a consumer to make an informed decision, which is to say, "Other customers who have purchased this product have also purchased these products."
At Caliva, we simply try to provide as much information for consumers to make the right information for them. When we talk about helping a customer build a profile with us, that is really their ability to determine what type of products are viewed first, what type of emails that they receive to us. We let them build, whether it's by category, or by product, or by state what their profiles should be. Consumers have the 100% ability to be able to change that. Obviously, we keep consumer privacy extremely important, so all of that data is anonymized when it's going into our recommendation engines.
Matthew: Now California deem cannabis as an essential business during the COVID-19 self-quarantine period. Depending on when people in LA hear this, they still might be under self-quarantine. What patterns in cannabis consumer behavior change during that time? Anything that surprised you or stuck out that was a stark contrast from pre-COVID to COVID period?
Dennis: Yes, and absolutely. I think there's a couple of different areas to look at there. Probably the biggest surprise that we had within the entire COVID and shelter-in-place situation was the willingness and the responsiveness from the Bureau of Cannabis Control and our municipality when we went out to them and had some proactive outreach.
I was most impressed by that.
What we saw was the day that shelter-in-place was announced, if you think back on March 16th, it was announced in around a, or at least it was reported on, I shouldn't even say announced, about [12:30] on Monday, March 16th. I know that because we were in an executive team meeting and it just came down, and somebody said, "We're now in shelter-in-place." I had to look it up around what that meant.
I immediately went over to our main store and there was a line of about 50 people by the 15 minutes that took me to get from the meeting to the store. There was just so many unknowns. To be able to talk with some of those people in line we were handing out our hemp-based CBD coffee drink called Soul Grind, just because they were waiting so long in line and talking with some of the people around, "Hey, tell me why you're here." Cannabis was truly essential medicine to them.
Being able to see the planning that they needed to have it on the unknown was humbling. I think that the BCC was one, the consumer needs were another. Certainly, we had so much pride in terms of the continuous courage that our essential workers, or our drivers, our wellness consultants have that serve thousands of people on a daily basis. To see all of them step up to ensure that we are there for the community, that they were there for Caliva was just outstanding.
Then from a consumer behavior, we were the first ones in the Bay Area in San Jose to have curbside pickup. By the time that the shelter-in-place came in, we had already had notions of that we were wanted to be able to ask for curbside pickup. We asked for curbside pickup that day, was granted access to be able to do that, both from the state and the city, very quickly. Midday on March 16th, we had curbside pickup launched. Without much fanfare on a marketing basis, that's become a hugely popular way to be able to order and pick up cannabis. That was a complete unknown for us if that would happen. Today, that's about 20% of our business right now is curbside pickup.
Matthew: Wow, 20%. Okay, really interesting. Now, one thing I think about a lot, Dennis, is the Pareto principle, and that is the 80/20 rule as most people know it by. 20% of your customers make up 80% of your revenue, but you can drill that down further in 4% of your customers make up 64% of the revenue or something close to that. Those 4%, they're investing more in a Caliva. Do you reward them more? Do you invest back more in them? Is there perks or how does that work? How do you think about it?
Dennis: One is, I would say least at this time, that principle is not applying to us, simply because of the sheer amount of new consumers that are coming on board to the caliva.com platform. I think there's two areas of focus and it's an informed question. One is, what do we do to ensure that that new customer has a fantastic first time experience with Caliva? We really think it's the content meets commerce, so we need to be able to invest as much into content education and have them have a great experience, and get their questions answered, and do what we say we're going to do.
On the consumer loyalty end of things, we're always trying to improve in terms of a customer loyalty program, but we've really relied on some of our loyal customers for, I think, of feedback on focus groups on what products that we have in development that they think would be best to think of focus groups as a early testing on and feedback on tested products. For instance, we have a-- We're really excited about a new category that we're going to be entering into at the end of the month and being able to have focus groups against some of those products or just general feedback on our experiences.
We engage different pockets of those loyal consumers, but also think of loyal consumers by different demographics. We have, for a long time, provided the highest veterans and senior discounts in the Bay Area. We've given them in COVID, some special shopping hours in terms of times in the store. While there's traditional loyalty programs of points and those types of things, I really think that our best marketers are our customers. The more that we get feedback from the customers and the more that we enable our customers to market for us, the better off that will be in terms of spreading the truer word around Caliva, because we still believe word of mouth marketing is the most effective form of marketing for us.
Matthew: It is amazing too to think a lot of businesses really focus on, "Hey, let's get new customers in," but you're taking it next level there, saying like, "What is their experience? What do they experience viscerally? Do they think we run well? Does their expectation meet what actually occurred for them in terms of the ordering process? How fast, did they have an expectation of how fast it was? Did it meet their expectation? What was their feeling after consuming the product that arrived or that they picked up?" That does make a lot of sense. That's high ROI thinking because it doesn't cost tremendously more. It costs a lot to get a new customer to walk in the door, but to make sure they're happy costs a lot less. Any thoughts on that?
Dennis: Yes, I fully agree. What I love about this industry is and what I love about Caliva is the engagement rate of consumers. They care, they care a lot. They care a lot about what they're putting into the body, they care a lot about plant-based solutions, they care a lot about the businesses that they patronize, they care a lot about their wellness consultants, they care about our drivers. Hopefully, that is because our wellness consultants, our drivers, they care too. They truly believe in our mission to make people's lives better on a daily basis through plant-based solutions. You can't fake that.
When you have such an engaged customer base who really wants to advocate on your behalf, it absolutely behooves us to be able to tap into their feedback knowledge and be able to give them what they want sometimes, which is it's just a megaphone to say, "Hey, I had a great experience." Or, "Wow, I had a breakthrough on a product." It's cannabis is this still unknown to most people. When somebody has such a great experience, our Chairman of the Board, Carol Bartz is probably our best salesperson there is, simply because the Caliva lotions that she uses helps her play a full round of golf. Once she sees that it actually works for her, that credibility around telling one of her friends, "Hey, you have to try this. It's a miracle lotion type of thing," certainly goes a long way.
Matthew: Now, you mentioned that you were launching a new category at the end of the month, is that something you can talk about?
Dennis: We haven't launched it yet. It's under wraps for now.
Matthew: A teaser. How dare you, Dennis.
Matthew: I'm only kidding. How do you see the cannabis market in California and then more widely in North America change in the next three to five years? Probably changed more than you thought it was going to in the last eight weeks, but how do you think it's going to change in the next three to five years?
Dennis: [laughs] I have no idea.
Here's what I can tell you that we're focused on. If you looked at the Wall Street Journal today, and this is when Uber's trying to buy a Grubhub and the consumers are in shelter-in-place, they actually had a graph that says that carry-out is still 40% of the preferred way that consumers are getting their food from restaurants. That drive-through is the next 45%. While delivery is growing at the fastest clip, at least for food delivery, it's still about 10% basis in terms of how consumers are receiving their food. There's some corollaries between food and cannabis, not a ton, but if you just think about general consumer behavior and what consumers expect as a staple of an essential type of product like cannabis, consumers expect convenience.
Consumers should be able to access their cannabis in the manner of their choosing. If that is the equivalent to a carry-out, which would be a pickup, and whether it's in-store pickup or curbside pickup, those are two corollaries. We don't have a corollary for drive-through. Maybe curbside pickup is the closest to that. Still, in-store and delivery are still important as well.
While I certainly believe that there will be a massive amount of product innovation in terms of new form factors, new efficacy towards that, I really think the educational capabilities around what cannabis products and what plant-based solution products are right for our consumers and their ability to be able to access that on demand are going to be some of the most important innovations that we'll see in these next couple of years.
Matthew: California had 3.1 billion in legal cannabis sales in 2019 and an estimated 8.7 billion in illegal or black market sales. Charlie Munger, a famed cooperator of Berkshire Hathaway has been quoted as saying, "Show me the incentive and I will show you the outcome." What incentives and disincentives exist in the California marketplace to make the illegal market nearly three times the size of the legal market, in your opinion?
Dennis: It's a good question. I would contend that California specifically is the most difficult state and most difficult market in the world to compete in if you are a legal cannabis entity. That is simply because of the size and the history of the black market. However, at least I've always believed that if we can't make a product, a service that is better than the black market, then we should not use the black market as an excuse as to what our growth limitations would be. For instance, there is no black market for a THC lotion.
The black market is very focused still today on inhalables, and flower, and vape, but when you look at the broad portfolio of products that cannabis and CBD have and if you look at some of our portfolio, I mentioned our hemp-based CBD drink of Soul Grind, but we also have face serums and bath bombs of hemp-based CBD. We have what we just launched, a fresh flower vapes, which are strain-specific, high quality, 100% cannabis derived vape pens. Those are things that just can't be replicated at the black market. You can't replicate a scheduled delivery that provides you text-based updates and gives you an ability to review, and get a coupon, and tell your friends, and pay electronically, and do contact list delivery.
The black market by nature makes us more competitive. We have to be able to improve what we do, but to your question specifically around incentives, disincentives, to me, at least, there's two big things. One is obviously the tax rate in San Jose that the compounded tax rate is essentially a 35%, 36% tax rate for our consumer. It's way too high. Consumers are purchasing cannabis for pain, sleep, and anxiety, and that type of tax rate is punitive for those who are looking for non-synthetic, not addictive, healthy plant-based solutions to improve their daily lives. That has to change.
The second thing that has to change. It has to be easier for consumer online and in the store to understand if that store or a delivery place is licensed. Weedmaps has done a great job of being able to eradicate almost all of the illegal listings, and I give them a lot of credit for a lot of work that they've done online. When you go into a illegal type of retail shop in LA for instance, there's no Better Business Bureau seal that you would easily be able to see that said, if you were a consumer, that this was a legal shop versus not illegal shop. With counterfeit and those types of things, it's very hard within products to be able to see.
Those are the two things that I know the BCC and governor are focused on but that is certainly what helps the black market thrive, but at least for Caliva, we really focus on the best consumer experience possible.
Matthew: Where are you in the capital raising process?
Dennis: We've had great, I'd say, current investors and in terms of access to capital and we are continuing to be able to look and feel out what makes sense for our growth. Like everybody in cannabis, we're always exploring those opportunities. There's no new news in terms of where we're at, other than just exploration mode, but I think what's more important around just the access to capital is in a business model of what we look at towards a profitable business model in terms of both scalable capabilities and what we see as some of the investments in asset-like type of capabilities, but our general business model, which is we make our products and we sell our products, has the highest margin throughout the value chain.
What we're really focused on rather than just continuous to fundraise is really just building a profitable business. That profitable business, whether it's our partnership with Hypur through contactless payments, or whether it's innovating around curbside pickup, or whether it's focusing on our essential employees in the month of April, we've really taken the time on the COVID, a time period to just be introspective on that and really focus on our business fundamentals.
Matthew: Talk a little bit more about the contactless payment with Hypur, just so we can get a picture there, because a lot of people are interested in that more than ever.
Dennis: I really have a lot of interest in terms of what the evolution of payments are going to be. We did a market scan for a while in terms of electronic payment partners. We tried a number of different type of providers as well. Hypur far and away has stood out to be the most frictionless way for a consumer to buy cannabis electronically. We would have proceeded with Hypur regardless of COVID. What we found within Hypur is just a team like us that could innovate really well.
By the time that we signed our partnership and rolled out within all of our locations statewide, Hypur has the ability where we can deliver a cannabis package to you and you simply are connected through phones, through the driver and through your own personal phone where you confirm that you've received it. You don't do anything other than show an ID and click a button and there's no other contact. That's true for our curbside pickup. We have seen a massive consumer feedback thanking us for the ability to be able to do that. We're thrilled with the Hypur team in terms of their level of partnership and innovation. We were very happy to be able to innovate that for our customers and our community.
Matthew: Dennis, I'd like to ask a few personal development questions to help us-
Matthew: -get a better sense of who you are. Since you were on the show last time, I got a fresh few for you here, so I'll go ahead.
Dennis: [chuckles] Okay, sounds good.
Matthew: Is there anything interesting you learned about yourself or business that surprised you during the COVID-19 crisis that you'd like to share? It can be anything at all.
Dennis: I would say a big leadership learning lesson for me, just continuous importance around communication. We had set up a hotline where I was providing daily updates on a voicemail message. We did video updates to the teams and did some emails as well. You can't communicate enough in terms of times like this, and that the worst information is no information at all and uncertainty. What was really, I think, impactful for me is just understanding how important it is to continuously provide updates and communication information to teams, whether that's your internal employees or whether it's your customers as well. That was a big aha for me over the last six weeks.
Matthew: Apart from what you're doing at Caliva, what is the most interesting thing going on in the cannabis industry?
Dennis: Short term to me, it's what Hypur is doing around electronic payments. I really think the massive barrier that we've seen for consumers just being able to pay electronically for their cannabis. We certainly see when they have the ability to pay with somebody like Hypur through Caliva that that average order value goes up significantly. I really look forward to the more innovation around the electronic payment space.
Longer term, I think I'm very interested like a lot of people in just the continued development of biosynthesis and some of those less known cannabinoids and really product development around both those areas, just a lower cost of production around cannabinoids, and then more development around some of these other minor cannabinoids in terms of what form factors and in terms of what use cases will come out of that.
Matthew: Here's a Peter Thiel question for you.
Matthew: What is one thing that most people would disagree with you on that you believe is true? Your most controversial thought that you stand by?
Dennis: [laughs] The most controversial thought, wow. I think people would disagree with me [laughs] on a lot of different things. Personally, maybe it's that the Cleveland Browns still will have a shot at winning the Super Bowl in the next 10 years, so maybe it's that. What the drumbeat that I've had for a very long time is that people trust people, not ads. I think a lot of people would say the advertisement or online and people will just believe and see what they need online, I don't subscribe to that. I think especially for cannabis is that people trust people. That also means that there is a significant role in the future for in-store retail for cannabis. While delivery and access is insanely important, I still believe that there is a very high need for that trusted expert within the cannabis industry.
Matthew: Last question, what's your spirit animal, Dennis?
Matthew: I'm only kidding. You don't have to answer that question. You already told me it was a unicorn. We're just going to move-- I'm only kidding. You can answer that question.
Dennis: I can tell you, my ten-year-old spirit animal is pandas. She obsesses about pandas. At least that one runs in the family.
Matthew: Okay. Dennis, as we close, how could listeners connect with Caliva and visit one of your dispensaries or try out your app?
Dennis: I'm thrilled just to say and it's a big improvement from last time we spoke, Matt, was that caliva.com can be accessed from anywhere in the Bay Area and anywhere in the Los Angeles area for both scheduled deliveries and online deliveries. That's the easiest way to be able to understand our product selection. In those areas, there's in-store capabilities too, but that's the best way to reach us. I appreciate the opportunity to share that.
Matthew: Well, thanks, Dennis. Good luck with everything you have going on. It's really interesting to hear how much curbside has grown. 20% was a huge number. I'll be interested to hear how all these different numbers change next time we talk.
Dennis: Yes. Thanks so much, Matt. I really enjoyed the show as always.
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