Ep 369 – What Do New Hemp Laws Mean for California? Top Cannabis Lawyer Weighs In

jeffrey welsh vicente sederberg

A long-debated bill establishing new hemp rules just gained final approval in California, ​​but what does this mean for the market and how should we prepare? Here to help us answer that is Jeffrey Welsh, Partner at Vicente Sederberg & co-founder of Composite Agency. 

Learn more at https://vicentesederberg.com

Key Takeaways:

[1:37] An inside look at Vicente Sederberg, one of the largest cannabis law firms in the US

[4:56] Jeffrey’s decorated background in entertainment and how he came to join Vicente Sederberg

[12:04] Emerging growth opportunities in entertainment and cannabis

[16:46] How celebrity brands could help destigmatize cannabis and draw in more consumers

[21:57] The Trailer Bill and what this means for California’s cannabis industry

[25:41] Assembly Bill 45 and the end of prohibition on smokable hemp in California

Click Here to Read Full Transcript

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Matthew Kind: Hi. I'm Matthew Kind. Every Monday, I look for a fresh new episode where I'll take you behind the scenes and interview the insiders that are shaping the rapidly evolving cannabis industry. Learn more at cannainsider.com, that's C-A-N-N-Ainsider dot com. Now, here's your program.

Sinead Green: Along debated bill establishing new hemp rules just gain final approval in California, but what does this mean for the market moving forward and how should we prepare? Here to help us answer that is Jeffrey Welsh, Partner at the Vicente Sederberg and co-founder of Composite Agency. Jeffrey, thank you so much for being here today.

Jeffrey Welsh: Sinead, it's my pleasure. Thank you so much, excited for our conversation today.

Sinead: I'm so pumped to have you on here and before we get into your background and all the amazing work you do in California, first off Jeffrey, can you give us a sense of geography and let us know where you're sitting today?

Jeffrey: Sure, yes. Right before the pandemic, I moved to Northridge, California, which is just what we call the Valley here. It's hot basically year-round, but it's now officially the end of summer. Things are cooling off a little bit, which means it'll be in the low 90s, early 80s this weekend. That is where I call home these days.

Sinead: Oh, nice. Very cool. Talking about California, obviously, you're no stranger. You've lived there for many years, but you do so much work there and so many cool projects. I'm so excited to get into this, but first off, Jeffrey, can you give us a snapshot of the Vicente Sederberg and the work you do there?

Jeffrey: Sure. I'm one of three California partners in Vicente Sederberg who is the nation's largest cannabis and hemp-focused law firm. Ironically, I found out about VS back in 2010, which was my first year of law school at Pepperdine in Malibu, California. I had gone to law school to be an entertainment lawyer. I come from a performance background in music, in saxophone particularly, but in 2010, I started working and discovered the cannabis industry in large part because VS actually wrote the law in Colorado, excuse me, that was the nation's first adult-use law.

Way back in 2010, my law school roommate and dear friend and business partner, Luke Stanton and I, hatched a plan to start our own cannabis-focused business law firm when the time was right in California, which we did in 2015. Ironically, right before the pandemic hit in 2019, as a result of lots of great conversations with the VS team, we decided to join forces and bring our book of business into the VS fold, mostly because a lot of our clients, Sinead, were looking to expand operations into other states. It was just such a wonderful compliment that we had a relatively small, but successful law firm joining the best in the business and the firm that we modeled our own firm after.

I've been with VS now for two years. We really handle anything and everything in the regulated cannabis hemp and emerging therapies spaces, really outside of litigation. We have a very small litigation department, we don't touch on criminal defense either. A day in the life of a cannabis lawyer is extremely varied and unique and that's what keeps my day to day extremely fun and unique because there are new challenges, that we're dealing with on a daily basis as we're going to dive into and chat about some of the things we're focusing on.

Sinead: I imagine, gosh, the last few weeks alone have just been probably a whirlwind for you, haven't they, Jeffrey, just with all the recent developments and all the-

Jeffrey: Oh, yes, which is great. I'm thankful to be in a space, it's evolving always for better or worse. It's certainly great job security with constant new developments and regulatory changes. Everything regarding, like new emergency regulations in California that just came through and we'll talk about the recall election and AB 45 and the provisional licensing issues, all these things are something I work with our clients on a daily basis on.

Sinead: That's great. Lots to unpack in this interview. I'm so excited to get into all of that in a second here, but you glossed over this, but I don't want to get through this interview without talking about your background in entertainment because you had a very impressive background in entertainment as a saxophonist. Can you tell us a little bit about your musical roots and maybe you share a few of your proudest accomplishments as a saxophonist?

Jeffrey: Sure. Absolutely. Really, I decided to do my undergraduate studies and my graduate studies in music performance. I did my undergraduate studies in music conservatory called the Hart School of Music, which is in West Hartford, Connecticut. Tremendous experience and really honestly, musicians and lawyers, being a musician taught me the art of dedication and frankly, hard work. The concept of spending eight hours a day in a practice room, that was my college experience. Obviously, I had a fun time, but I really learned how to sink in and really focus on myself and hone my skill set, which certainly was very helpful during law school and even developing your own business and practicing law, growing a healthy client roster and working with people.

After the Hartt School, I decided to do my master's at the University of Southern California here in LA, where I got my master's degree in saxophone performance as well. My goal at the time was to be like a touring musician and studio musician. I did some fun studio gigs. I'm on a couple episodes of Family Guy as a saxophonist, which was pretty fun. I was a sub for the Los Angeles Philharmonic in the Hollywood Bowl. I've had the opportunity to perform at Disney Hall in downtown LA and also the Hollywood Bowl, which are tremendous experiences for me.

Toured and recorded for a while. I tell this story a lot, but realized shortly after graduating from USC, that I needed to explore the business side of music. Part of it was leaving gigs, particularly like larger gigs, if there were celebrities we were performing with or larger entertainers. I would always see their managers and lawyers seemingly leaving in much nicer cars, than all the musicians. I'm certainly not a guy that money is my only focus, but always felt like I might have a really unique skill set. I've always been a people person, I've always really enjoyed being around people, and that side of me, I felt incomplete, honestly, as just a musician and that's not a slight on anyone who's a musician, whatsoever. I'm just speaking to my journey specifically.

That curiosity is really what led me to law school, in the hopes of being a music entertainment lawyer. Ironically, it was that curiosity that evolved into cannabis. 2010, like I said, is when I started law school and that's really when I discovered cannabis law. Now, California cannabis law in 2010 wasn't what I do today. It was keep your clients out of jail. We had a limited regulatory structure with some corporate formation in place that acted as an affirmative defense. I don't want to get too far in the weeds on California cannabis law 10 years ago.

That subsequently evolved into, particularly as a founder of my first law firm, into really utilizing my skillset with people into aggregating a pretty roster of some of the most well-respected brands in the State. I'm fortunate, Sinead, to still be able to perform and record pre-pandemic. I could perform once a month in LA, either at cannabis events of our clients or at nightclubs. At this point, I either performed saxophone with DJs or I'll DJ myself and play saxophone at the same time.

If anyone is out there curious what I sound like, it's like basically house music with saxophone on top. Groups like Big Gigantic and Grease are definitely some of my inspirations, as far as who I try to like model my performances after these days.

Sinead: Gosh, that's amazing, what you said. You said you're in a few Family Guy episodes, is that right?

Jeffrey: Yes.

Sinead: Oh my gosh. My brother-in-law is quite possibly the biggest Family Guy fan. He is constantly making references that go right over my head. I'm going to have to share that with him. He'll find that so cool.

Jeffrey: It was a very memorable experience and honestly, a lot of that work, what was really most interesting, Sinead, was that also, one of my reasons for pivoting out were my teachers at USC who were teaching me, were the same people who were then my competition. The studio music scene in LA is very small, and one of my teachers at the time is the guy. His name is Dan Hagens. If you've ever heard saxophone on any movie, he's the guy from Catch Me If You Can. He is Lisa Simpson from the Simpsons. He is the sax guy, he does the Grammy Band, he does the Emmy's Band, he does the Oscars Band. He's the guy. He was now the guy I was competing against for gigs. I recognized it's such a small space. He was not an old guy, so I realized, hey, this might make sense for me to differentiate myself a little more meaningfully as well, because there's just not that many sax gigs at that level.

I'm glad to give you some extra context to [crosstalk].

Sinead: Oh my God. Like you said, I find it so cool that you decided for, various reasons, not just the competitiveness there, but to pivot to the law side of entertainment and help facilitate some deal flow between those industries. Getting it into that, Jeffrey, can we talk about celebrity brands a little bit in cannabis because I feel like from Seth Rogan to Willie Nelson, Jay Z, we are starting to see a lot of unique celebrity brands in cannabis, but if you can give us an overview of where we're at with that and where you see that heading.

Jeffrey: Sure. It's one of my old tired sayings, but what I always say is music in cannabis is peanut butter and jelly. There are very few things that go better together. That was such a complementary fit to me. That's what really drove me to try and bring this gap, to create a way for the entertainment world to more meaningfully work or activate themselves in cannabis and hemp.

Right now on the celebrity side of things, I see two really different buckets. I see, still to this day, groups of talent that aren't doing it right. You'll see brands that are out there, where it's very clear the brand ambassador or the celebrity is just looking for a paycheck and they're not meaningfully involved in the brand. The brand itself is not really a natural extension of the celebrity themselves. There isn't that like genuine thread that binds the two and cannabis consumers are smart and we're picky. There's a lot of choice, particularly in California, as to cannabis products.

You're going to have your super fans, so regardless of whether a brand has that authentic connection, you might still sell some products. Most consumers here aren't going to pay a premium, like a 15% to 20% premium just because you're buying a musician's cannabis. That to me is unfortunately still the largest bucket of celebrity brands. I'm not talking about celebrities getting involved or investing generally, just celebrity brands and that's most of them.

The groups you just touched on, I think, like Seth Rogan's brand, in particular, Willie Nelson's done a great job. I don't want to like pick on the Marley family. To me, Marley Naturals is a great example of what I brought up first. There's no authentic, really connection between Marley and the cannabis products. I think that's the struggle to sell those products really speak to that.

The groups that are doing it right is quite the opposite. I think first and foremost, they're not looking at cannabis as a short-term win. It takes a while to create that trust with the cannabis consumer, because say you're a fan of Seth Rogan and say you smoke cannabis, those two don't necessarily have to align. They're not mutually exclusive. Just because I love Seth Rogan, doesn't mean I'm going to love his cannabis, particularly if in California, I can get an equally good product for $40 an eighth, instead of $65 an eighth. A group like House Plant, what they've done is they've differentiated themselves. The brand optics are beautiful, the flower is preeminent, but they've also differentiated themselves by one, Seth being meaningfully involved. Seth also really understanding the importance of walking the walk, as it relates to social equity initiatives or giving back to a community that has been disproportionately affected by the war on drugs. Groups House Plant are really doing that.

Then, you add in the other differentiator, which is their accessories are beautiful talking pieces of art. I think really approaching celebrity brands as, hey, we have to get meaningfully involved, this can't come off as a way for the celebrity to get a paycheck and how are we going to really differentiate ourselves and get the brand ambassador or celebrity really involved. Do the meeting greets, do lots of Instagram, Facebook lives, stuff, depending on what you can do specific to social media.

I think I've unpacked that. I'll pause there and see if you got any more questions because I know I just--

Sinead: Oh no. That makes total sense. I was curious because in most other industries slapping a celebrity's face on a product, they tend to see some success with that, but with cannabis consumers, I feel like, like you said, they are a little bit more savvy. They're a little bit more set in their ways, maybe a little bit more educated and they know, which products they already like. I wondered with some of these brands that aren't, maybe, like Seth Rogan, his name is almost like synonymous with cannabis, I feel like. I saw recently Cheech & Chong have partnered up with Eighth Icon Holdings to start another brand there. Cheech & Chong again, they're very synonymous with cannabis. It's almost, those are really targeting cannabis consumers.

Are we going to start to see celebrity brands that really peak a broader public interest and then maybe, help broaden the industry and maybe help to lessen some of that stigma, maybe normalize it. Do you think we'll start to see some of that?

Jeffrey: I'm glad you're bringing this up, Sinead. That's the core thesis for me, is that look, it makes sense for Seth and Snoop and Wiz and Willie, and we know they're the usual suspects. That just fits into their core brand, but where the opportunity is, where the opportunity to change hearts and minds are with people that you wouldn't traditionally associate with consuming cannabis. That's how we really convert the people who are on the outside looking in, is utilizing celebrities for better or worse, as a way to get people to be educated and to try rust the plant. That to me, is the most meaningful way we can really start to bridge that gap.

That goes to also, one of my other thesis in entertainment, which is utilizing non-psychoactive cannabinoids as a stepping stone because you don't have the regulatory challenges. If you're dealing with someone who's, maybe 60 plus, they may have smoked cannabis in the '60s or '70s, but the cannabis today is much stronger. It's different, there's a lot more choices, there are strains, there are different products. The ability to introduce someone who's maybe never smoked cannabis or who hasn't smoked cannabis in 40 years, to a topical CBD product that's going to help them with some aches and pains, to me is the perfect entryway to having them explore that curiosity and to opening that door further, once we get to federal legalization.

The demographics that currently aren't being targeted can really start being effectively targeted. Those are also demographics that I think would benefit the most from relatively regular use of the plant. For me, I am a almost daily cannabis user at night, it's part of my evening ritual. Is that for recreational use or for medical use? I'd argue a little bit of both, but I wouldn't say I have a true medical need to consume cannabis.

I just told you my mom just got in town. My mom is in her 60s and absolutely benefits. I always get her topical products and she loves vaporizers and so I always get a couple of clients vaporizers because then she can enjoy the product in a way without her getting too stoned, frankly. She can't smoke California Flower, it's just too strong for her. I'm lucky to have my mom, of course, but my mom's lucky to have me as it relates to cannabis because I can be her education gap. I can bridge that gap for her, explain what the terpene profile is on the back of the product.

That said, my mom obviously cares what I say, but I don't have that weight. I don't have 10 million followers on Instagram, that to me is one of the most exciting evolutions of our space, and something I remain bullish about is continuing to push and find people who are willing to basically support and defend the plant and all of its amazing uses.

Sinead: Absolutely. That's such a great point and like you said, some of these recent developments in California are only going to expedite that. We've got the Trailer Bill, we've got Assembly Bill 45. There's a lot of stuff going on right now, that I think is only going to aid that.

Maybe we'll start with the Trailer Bill and talk about the new industry regulations that has just put forth in California, could we talk about that for a few minutes?

Jeffery: Absolutely. You just summarized my week, Sinead. That's been 80% of my phone calls this week. Look, this was good for the industry in California, and for those not in the know. Essentially, California's cannabis regulatory structure are three different agencies, and this new Trailer Bill consolidated those three agencies into one, creating what was the Bureau of Cannabis Control into the Department of Cannabis Control. it went from BCC to the DCC.

With the advent of the DCC, came 400 pages of emergency regulations, that were released, I believe, middle of last week. When I say that's been my week, this week has been spent working with my team. I'm so fortunate my team is just so impressive and we've already created summaries. If you go to Vicente Sederberg or just search Vicente Sederberg DCC or emergency regulations, California you'll land on our page with our summary. It's good for the industry in the long run, Sinead, it's challenging initially, because with new processes mean hiccups and inevitably mean a little bit of a loss later, in terms of productivity and effectiveness on communication.

The reason it's good long-term, is that these agencies and I'm not blaming the agencies specifically, it was just the nature of the beast. Pre DCC before these agencies were consolidated, they didn't really communicate effectively with one another. I might have a client that has a cultivation license, which was one regulatory body, a manufacturing license, which is a different regulatory body, and a retail license, which is a different regulatory body, and trying to communicate or get them to communicate with each other, was extremely challenging.

The concept of having one point of contact, as it relates to the regulators instead of three or three different agencies, it is encouraging long term. The challenge now is that particularly during these times, like during COVID, they're dealing with a massive agency consolidation, brand new rules, so now, the analysts and people working for the DCC are now getting flooded with requests about how to interpret these new rules. That in conjunction with provisional licensing, which we'll talk about, means there's a massive logjam right now. To process a license in California right now, we're quoting like four to six months for the DCC, from the day you submit a license application, until you receive approval.

I think as we look to the future, this is going to get better and more efficient and I do think this is a sensible move long term, it's just right now we're dealing with the reality that things are going to slow down when you implement a new meaningful process that affects tens of thousands of businesses in the state.

Sinead: Absolutely. Vicente Sederberg, you were so instrumental in overturning the smokable hemp ban in Texas. You mentioned there are going to be some hiccups here and there, but ultimately, you think this is going to be very good for California. Could you maybe discuss some of the parallels there and give our listeners a sense of what Assembly Bill 45 is and how, maybe, you see some parallels there between California and the Texas market?

Jeffery: Sure, absolutely. Another hot button topic and I've got to give a shout out to my colleague Shane Pennington, who was instrumental in helping to overturn the smokable hemp ban in Texas and I'm sure he'll be back to work in California now. Luckily, we've got him on our side and a great team. Look, like we talked about before the interview, Sinead, it's two steps forward, two steps back. It's not a lack of progress, but I don't quite understand the thesis or rationale here.

Again, to summarize what AB 45 is, it's basically, the California Legislature has given final approval to this Bill, that really allows a formal pathway for hemp-based CBD to be used in foods, beverages, and other products in the state. That is wonderful, that's the two steps forward because as you and I both know, Sinead, it's not just California, it's everywhere in the country if not the world that, specifically in the US, it's clear the FDA has not approved hemp-derived CBD as being generally regarded as safe for human consumption, and everyone's doing it regardless. You can find CBD additives everywhere, online, at your farmers market, at your local coffee shops, everywhere. It is absolutely everywhere.

It's nice that California is providing that pathway, but at the same time after this wonderful news in Texas, it's also banning smokable hemp. My concern about this Bill is that they are checking off one box and creating a whole new separate set of issues, which is that hemp cultivators, there could be some litigation that stems from this new regulatory pathway we're heading down. I just feel like if you're going to allow people to ingest CBD, then and I would consider inhaling or smoking hemp, a different form of ingestion, understood.

Look, if you're allowing cigarettes to be sold and regulated appropriately and cigars to be sold and regulated appropriately, to me it's nonsensical why you wouldn't provide a pathway to properly allow for the regulated sale of smokable hemp products.

I don't know if you've ever tried a hemp cigarette? I've had like 10 of them in my life, and 9 of them were terrible. I don't necessarily envision it being a massively popular product, except for the fact that hemp cultivators are now starting to produce hemp, that basically looks like cannabis, and supposedly, if they're able to harvest it and keep it fresh, it does taste amazing. I think if we have a regulatory regime that allows for the sale of this, then we'll see the products evolve because for the most part, most of the hemp cigarettes I've tried in my life had been extremely dried out and extremely harsh. I think that's just because there are a ton of legitimate businesses really trying to evolve this but, Sinead, the obvious low-hanging fruit here is that hemp can be a wonderful cessation device from smoking nicotine.

I'm not going to sit here on this podcast with you and argue that smoking anything is healthy for you, but I'm quite sure, and I'm not a scientist, that smoking hemp cigarettes is better than smoking cigarettes. Smoking hemp flower does not have the same additives that smoking a pack of traditional cigarettes has. This is when we can get to a further, longer deep-dive into what type of money is behind these types of Bills and this type of legislation. You probably know what I'm hinting at, but big volume, big corporations always have their hands on some of this stuff.

Sinead: Gosh, absolutely. Assembly Bill 45, there is much to unpack in that alone. I feel like, Jeff, we'll have to do a follow-up interview at some point to really dive into some more of the stuff. We'll have to do so.

Jeffrey: I'm coming back, Sinead.

Sinead: Absolutely. Jumping into some personal development questions, I know you live and breathe cannabis, but you're very multifaceted, you've got so many other interests and we've touched on a few of those in this interview. I wanted to dive into those a little bit here, too. The first question, is there a book that you feel has had a big impact on your life or maybe your way of thinking, that you could share with the listeners?

Jeffrey: Sure. I would like to share it too, if you don't mind. They share a similar thesis. The first book is a book called Shantaram by Gregory David Roberts. I don't know if you've heard of that one.

Sinead: I haven't.

Jeffrey: It's essentially a massive story of redemption. It's a true story of basically a guy who spent like eight years in the Indian underworld. He was an armed robber and a heroin addict, escaped from an Australian prison to India, where he lived in a Bombay slum. He then reformed his life, and acknowledged the opportunity we have for this short one life we get to live, but still kept his edge, which is part of what makes it interesting.

He establishes a free health clinic in India, joins the mafia, is doing crazy work, is like a street soldier, he then falls in love. It's an epic tale of redemption and personal evolution and development. I won't spoil it for anyone who hasn't read it. I can't recommend that book enough. It's long, but it's also just one of those that once you commit the time to get into it, I couldn't put it down, I've read it like three times. Also interestingly, it was written by the guy, Gregory David Roberts, he wrote this about himself. The book was actually destroyed, the first two versions of it were destroyed by prison guards. Talk about a testament to the human, he wrote this entire book, but once you see it, it's not a short read, like three times.

Sinead: Oh my God.

Jeffrey: It's really like a saga and I generally stay away from the word epic, because it's overused in Southern California, but it's just a remarkable achievement, a brilliant, vivid story. It's compassionate, it's about human evolution, and it's also about redemption and that goes to my next book. Probably, my favorite all time book is The Count of Monte Cristo by Dumas. I actually just read the unabridged version for the first time over the pandemic. I'd read abridged versions a bunch of times. Again, similar themes.

It was an interesting question, Sinead, because it made me think about that for the first time in a really long time, and I found it very interesting that both of my favorite books are around the topic of redemption and evolution. I think I connect with those books in large part because of my evolution and that for me to change career paths, while I was a successful musician and to change completely and become a lawyer and then start my own business in an emerging space. Starting a cannabis law firm in 2015, which is what I did, was something a lot of people thought I was crazy for doing and thought it was essentially career suicide. I really resonate with those books because to me, it helps reinforce that while, of course, taking other people's opinions and particularly people you trust and love into account, if you have that fundamental belief in yourself, that really nothing is impossible and I really try and take that approach.

Obviously, books are not music, but music is probably my largest draw of inspiration, specifically, but those books are a reminder of you go through a hard day and then you read about someone like Mr. Roberts and his life and what he went through. I won't spoil any of the Count of Monte Cristo, but man, you want to talk about a story of redemption, it's my favorite story of redemption of all time. It's obviously one of the classics, but it's powerful and it's inspirational.

Sinead: Absolutely. That's great. I'm definitely going to have to bump those up the reading list. It's funny, Jeff, what you just said there, you said music is your greatest inspiration. That actually is so convenient because my next question for you was, I never want to ask, especially with an audio file like yourself, I never want to ask what's your favorite band because that's just an impossible question to answer, but-

Jeffrey: That'll be five hours later.

Sinead: Exactly. Jeff, say right now, if you were to end this interview and go put on some Spotify, what would you want to listen to right now? What's your favorite music at the moment?

Jeffrey: I have been relatively hooked on Rüfüs Du Sol for like a year and a half now. I basically have their entire catalog, as far as on the sax. If you're not an electronic music fan, I just think Rüfüs Du Sol-- I listen to everything and so the question's hard, it just depends on what I have. Frankly, if I need to focus, I'm probably not listening to Rüfüs because then I'm just going to listen to Rüfüs. They did just drop a new song today.

Me as an electronic musician myself, as a DJ and I do some producing and obviously, play saxophone, I'm always particularly inspired by electronic artists, who meaningfully differentiate themselves and actually perform instruments. I think too often people consider electronic music to just be like very heavy beat-driven, dance-focused and DJs. Rüfüs Du Sol, they do DJ, but they also create just to me, some of the most beautiful music I've ever heard that really resonates with me. It's inspiring, it's wonderful to listen to, it's relaxing, it also helps that the themes of their music are usually focused on love and to me, there's not really a better feeling to focus on than that.

I know that's focused on in lots of music everywhere regardless of genre, but there's something specific about them that I connect with directly and I think part of it is because playing sax with their music is a perfect complement to one another. Really, any of my new shows that I've been doing, my last show was like three weeks ago, I'll certainly always throw in a Rüfüs track that I'll play the melody along with or do some improvising with and it's usually one of the favorites. It's usually a top three favorite every time.

For me, it's also an opportunity to spread love, spread good energy, and hopefully, the audience living that experience, I'm leaving them with something to think about, whether that's something for themselves. That's what their music does for me, it helps me get inside myself in a good way and really think about my evolution and how I need to continue to evolve. It's always powerful when music has the ability for you to get introspective. Introspective doesn't mean it has to be massively productive, right? It can just be, "Hey, I'm just taking this music in and just like breathing it in." I am a massive Rüfüs fan, as you could probably tell. I just saw they dropped a song this morning and I haven't gotten to listen to it.

Sinead: Oh my gosh.

Jeffrey: That's probably why I said them first and foremost. Your question would also depend on if it's Friday night, I'm listening to something a little more upbeat. It just depends.

Sinead: I'm not familiar with them. I'm going to have to go check them out. Jeff, maybe for listeners who either would love to get connected with you at Vicente Sederberg, or maybe just come attend one of your gigs and SoCal, how can our listeners get connected with you, and maybe see a list of your upcoming gigs?

Jeffrey: Sure. I appreciate that, Sinead, thank you. My Instagram handle has all of my music and relevant cannabis updates. My Instagram handle is at J D Welsh, W E L S H. I'm also happy to give everyone my email, but it's a bit of a mouthful. It's j.welsh@vicentesederberg. You can also easily contact me if you just type my name, Jeff Welsh in cannabis, in a Google search, it'll bring you right to my page on our firm website, and then you could just email me directly from there. That might be easier. It might be the easiest way to get a hold of me.

As for all my music stuff, that's on my Instagram, but also my SoundCloud page, which is just Jeffrey, J-E-F-F-R-E-Y.welsh, W-E-L-S-H is my SoundCloud handle and got some new mixes on there, got some songs on there. I'm always happy to chat with anyone and everyone about music or cannabis or hemp or psychedelics. I hope our listeners can tell from this conversation, I'm a talker and I always like to connect with like-minded people.

Look, that doesn't necessarily mean that if you disagree strongly with something I said, or want to pick my brain or want to challenge a position I took on here, I always welcome that too, as long as that's coming from a place of respect and good energy. I'm always welcome to those conversations.

Sinead: That's amazing. I appreciate everything you've said here today, Jeff. This has been such a great conversation, so many amazing takeaways and just appreciate it so much. Thank you again, Jeff. All the best to you and everything you've got going on this year. So excited to see what you do and very much looking forward to having you back on

Jeffrey: Sinead, this was a pleasure. Let's stay connected. I hope everyone tuning in enjoyed themselves. Yes, let's stay in touch here and you have a wonderful weekend and I'll talk to you soon.

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