Lower your Cost of Cannabis Cultivation

armando suarez of Grodan

Armando Suarez from Grodan shares growing wisdom garnered from years of working with indoor produce farmers who have to grow their crops at 50 cents a pound or less.  Listen in as Armando shares this wisdom to help you grow more efficiently.

See footage of rolling tables we talked about in the show

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Key Takeaways:
[1:07] – What is Grodan
[1:26] – Armando talks about how he got in the cannabis industry
[2:12] – Grodan’s flagship product
[4:28] – How does fertilizer interact with rock wool
[8:06] – Armando talks about bringing costs down
[12:02] – Why cannabis growers pay more than vegetable growers
[13:23] – Armando talks about ideal drip irrigation system
[16:23] – Bad habits of growers
[23:29] – Mixing air into the grows
[26:49] – Balance between natural light and supplement lighting
[28:40] – Armando talks about growing in vertical spaces
[33:37] – What are rolling tables
[36:36] – Clipping tomatoes to wires
[40:10] – Armando talks about cultivation in the next 3-5 years
[42:49] – Armando answers personal development questions

Click Here to Read Full Transcript

Implementing best practices in the grow room is getting more important as competition increases in the marketplace. Here to give us some cultivation guidance to both new and seasoned grows is Armando Suarez of Grodan. Armando, welcome to CannaInsider.

Armando: Howdy everybody.

Matthew: Armando, give us a sense of geography. Where are you in the world today?

Armando: Well, I live in upstate New York in beautiful Ithaca, New York. It’s very close to Cornell University, which is supposedly one of the best agricultural universities in the country.

Matthew: Yes, it’s supposed to be very nice up there. Home to Ithaca College and Cornell both.

Armando: Correct.

Matthew: What is Grodan at a high level?

Armando: At a high level Grodan is a company that makes cotton candy with lava.

Matthew: Okay, we’ll get into what that means and why it’s good for plants, but I want to ask you a couple of other questions first. How did you get into this industry? How did you get into helping cultivators?

Armando: Well, my first job ever was in a nursery. I was just 15 year old, and it was to grow pansies for decorating cities. And from then I took a bachelor in Agricultural Engineering and Farm Management. That’s how you start and then you stay in the farm, and here we are.

Matthew: Now what do you mean exactly when you say “Cotton Candy with Lava in It,” because people are going to be what does that mean, and how does that help plants. Let’s talk a little bit about the flagship product of Grodan, what it is and why it’s important.

Armando: Basically the health of a plant is very determined by how healthy the roots are. Back in the 50s a company in Denmark was doing experiments on how to make rockwool, which is actually lava that was poured into a spinner to create fibers. Normally those are used as insulation, as you can probably guess. And they were for glues to make it hold its shape to go in between the rafters. One of the glues they tried was a mitigated disaster. It attracted water. It retained water. Can I mention that if you put insulation that gets wet, well your house is going pile - and melt into a pile of mold within six months.

So they threw it on the back of a factory and never to be looked again. Except that across the street there was a crazy greenhouse grower. He realized that grass was growing on it the next year, and that’s how Grodan started. They had their eureka moment, you know what, plants seems to actually like growing in this stuff.

Matthew: And it likes to grow in there because (A) it attracts and retains water, but is there any other characteristic besides the moisture attraction?

Armando: The more important factor there, it’s not that it attracts water, it’s that it actually rewets once it dries. So, one of the biggest challenges when you talk about growing media is not to wet it initially. It’s to actually rewet it once the plant is actually taking the water out. And rockwool seems to be one of the ones that rewets easiest, and because it rewets easiest, you actually have fairly good control of the amount of water that is going to be in that root zone.

Matthew: What about fertilizer? How does fertilizer interact with rockwool?

Armando: That is the other advantage that they found out is that it does not react with fertilizers. Most other medias, in fact, the lowly soil that covers most of the Earth actually retains fertilizers, and it will eventually compete with the plant for the molecules. In the case of rockwool, all those molecules and fertilizers are actually are available.

Matthew: That’s interesting. So, in your mind it’s the ideal starter growing media would you say.

Armando: Well, it’s very good because it’s clean out of the factory. Nothing could have survived the process of being melting into lava. Is it the best one? I believe so, but I’m a little biased.

Matthew: Okay, right. Now let’s look at the way - you talk with and work with a lot of growers that are outside of the cannabis industry and a lot that are inside. Let’s look at, for example, vegetable growers. They can produce their product at anywhere from $50 a pound or more or less, but that’s much lower cost per pound than a cannabis grow.

Armando: $50 a pound, I wish.

Hi CannaInsiders, sorry to interrupt the interview here, but just wanted to let you know that I meant 50 cents a pound here, not $50 a pound. Now back to your program.

Matthew: How can cannabis growers get there? What are they doing differently than the produce growers?

Armando: Well first the produce growers are not getting $50 a pound. They’re getting like 50 cents a pound, which illustrate why it is important to choose a system that allows you to remove all the little inefficiencies that are going to occur in any operation. Operational efficiency is really important for these guys, and they have eliminated pretty much every little thing that makes them waste one second here and two seconds there and three seconds over here and one second over there. All those little inefficiencies when you start calculating them over 1,000; 5,000; 5 million plants becomes really really big dollars really really quick. By removing them, you achieve survivability of your business when you have profit margins that are razor thin like the veggie guys.

Matthew: Right, so 50 cents a pound, the guys who grow and girls that grow cannabis right now their forehead’s sweating a little bit just thinking about how cheap that is compared to what they get. Let’s just say roughly a $1,000 a pound. There’s some that make $1,200. There’s some that make $800, but let’s just say $1,000 a pound, but they want to bring their costs down a lot. Do you have any specific examples around drip irrigation or something similar where listeners can try to visualize ways they can bring down their cost structure so they can be more competitive, and also actualize more profit.

Armando: Yes. For example, cost efficiency is the use of rockwool in a lot of the largest vegetable greenhouses, are switching to rockwool because they don’t want to be dealing with any bulk material. Bulk material require machinery, requires containment, requires washing the pots, cleaning the pot, moving the pots, getting in and out. So the lighter you can do the substraight and the more self-contained it is, which is the case of rockwool, because that’s that whole point of having tried the glues in the first place, was to actually be able to get in and out as quick as possible in the greenhouse. For example, the cost of setup with their plant is reduced to just a couple of dollars, while you look at pots that are used with any bulk material in it. In fact, that includes also rockwool as bulk material. Once you include labor in it, you’re approaching dangerously already $10 per plant.

Matthew: Yeah so, this is case in point. You’re saying look at your process holistically and every variable that goes into each one. It’s not just about hey I’m growing in pots. It’s like, hey you have to get the pot there. You have to make sure it’s clean, and then you have to clean it again and all these different things. Every input into that step and then every output. What are some other variables and steps you think that cannabis growers should be looking at in order to bring down their cost structure?

Armando: Substruct is a very very small one. One of the big ones, the big ones I see are really aimed in the cannabis market in the U.S. It’s really fertilizers and light. For most growers in the greenhouse, light is essentially free, depending on what geographical area we’re considering. For example, I see a lot of operations going up in the deserts, and they’re going inside, which makes absolutely zero sense. With all that light free, it makes no sense because that would be your biggest electricity cost, by far. You really look at as lighting in dark places where electricity is cheap. For example, in the Northwest there it’s an (10.56 unclear). So you see it really depends on the geographical area. Now on the fertilizers, yes. Pre mixes are something that really comes from the dark side in the retail mentality. You cannot be paying what these guys are paying for fertilizer.

Matthew: What would be a better way? How do you make sure you get great fertilizers at reasonable prices?

Armando: Well you buy from your Ag supply, and you make the potions. I call making them, preparing potions, yourself. To give you an example, an average vegetable grower is paying about 4 cents per gallon of irrigation water. The cannabis growers are paying about a dollar for that same gallon.

Matthew: Why are the cannabis growers paying so much more? Are they subject to marketing hype or what is it?

Armando: In part yes, I think there’s a lot of marketing hype. There’s a lot of legacy. It’s like that’s how the market grew, and most of these guys are actually new entrants in the market that have little agricultural knowledge. They think that yes, they’re putting magical potion in the water and that makes the plant grow. Guess what? That potion is nothing magical, and you can actually make it yourself.

Matthew: How would someone go about making it themselves if they’re used to buying the expensive stuff?

Armando: That is actually quite a steep learning curve. In fact, I attribute the fact that very few of them have taken that step in that direction because of that. Essentially any guy that is graduating from an agricultural university should be able to prepare potions.

Matthew: Okay, so this is like the NPK, the nitrogen, phosphorous and so forth?

Armando: That’s correct.

Matthew: Just getting that right and then what about creating an ideal drip irrigation system? How would you design that?

Armando: Actually that’s a very nice segue into irrigation system. Most of the time what I see with cannabis growers is that they have not step into really getting a hard look at their fertilizers, because every time they tried a different type of fertilizer, and they were trying more efficient irrigation system, boom, immediately they were clogging. It’s two components of the system that actually married together, they have to work together. If you’re putting anything in your irrigation system that is going to even have the hint of flocculating and making any type of gunk inside the line, yes you will forbid yourself the usage of real dripper irrigation, and foregoing all the efficiencies that come with automated irrigation and cheap fertilizer.

So, the first one is yes. You will have to choose the fertilizer that will not precipated, that will not create any deficit, because otherwise you cannot do an irrigation system with it. Plants are going to grow beautifully, but again it’s the mentality. Okay, now you’re a business, now you need to control costs. Your biggest bang for the buck is right there.

Matthew: Okay, so when you say it clogs the irrigation system, do you mean the nutrient part particulates build up.

Armando: Yes. So basically drip irrigation is created with the mentality that you have to put the water right on the roots of the plant in the slowest manner possible, while you’re still providing for the needs of the plants. Because you need to go very slowly, the passages that you’re using, which are the drippers, are very small holes. Anything that can go wrong and clog that tiny hole is going to clog it. So, the way to design it is always keeping in mind that you need to move water slowly, because moving water fast or moving a lot of water or pushing water very hard through a pipe is actually expensive. If you move it too slow, you get the nutrients clogging the lines. So, it’s a balancing act between those two.

Matthew: Is there any kind of bad habits you see amongst growers that they would be wise to change?

Armando: Many of them. The most egregious one that I see, and it’s very related to irrigation and fertilizer use, is these guys are chasing ghosts that in the big picture matter very little. For example you see a lot of growers literally manipulated. They’re focusing so hard on maintaining their ph stable, or literally holding a very precise number in ph. No, no, no, it needs to stay at 5.5, and you see them wasting mental resources and fertilizer resources, money resources, time resources in to trying to keep in line that number, which in the big picture is really not that important.

Matthew: There’s going to be some people listening that are going to say, what does he mean ph is not important.

Armando: Ph is important, but basically in nature plants work within a wide ranges of ph. I would say pretty much anything between 5.2 and 6.8, you are right about where the plant works perfectly. You will see very differences in performance within that range. Let me put it bluntly to you. You prepare a bucket of fertilizers. You let it sit right there. Just the bucket sitting right there, and you go and measure ph probably every half an hour for 24 hours and the ph is going to fluctuate. It’s going to go up and down, because you’re talking about systems that are not static. You are talking of systems that are very dynamic. Particularly when they get large they move very slowly in every direction. So you’re going to have ph fluctuations, whatever you do. No matter what you do. If the ph goes from 5.3 to 5.6, I wouldn’t even worry about it.

Matthew: Okay, that’s good that you bring that up because there’s probably a lot of people that will be relieved that might be doing that and why bother. Is there any other ghosts that they’re chasing where they’re obsessing about details that have a much wider range of success than maybe they think?

Armando: No, what I see a lot of them pursuing also snake oil. It’s a very snake oil prone market. Where, I don’t know, any company comes out with a new thing and it’s like, oh we need to try the new thing. Hold on guys, are you really sure. When you’re in retail, when you were doing (19.36 unclear) in your closet there were six plants. Yeah I can see the attraction of likely doing that. I would actually do that too. Now that you have a business with 6,000, your decision need to be a little bit more machilvalian. They need to be more money oriented instead of just is this product, even if the product works by the way. Some of the products out there absolutely work. They’re fantastic, but is the product—If I’m spending a dollar applying these products, am I going to get a dollar back or am I going to get less than a dollar back, or am I going to get more than a dollar back for applying that product into my crop. And see them not having that mentality yet.

Matthew: Where do you think that—is there a specific geographies in the U.S. or Canada that you see people fall prey to chasing ghosts or maybe thinking their circumstance are unique?

Armando: Yes. Colorado.

Matthew: Colorado, okay. One thing I see, and since I’m not a cultivator I can be a little more objective about it is that I talk with people and they say, well we’ve got unique practices that are different than in the industry and that allows us for bigger yields and a special artisanal growing, best practices, and they all seem to say that. They don’t realize that everybody thinks that. It’s kind of like a home brewer that’s like here’s some additional steps I take to make my brew stand out. There is something to that, but I think it’s perhaps less than they might think. There’s less impact from it. What do you think?

Armando: Absolutely Colorado.

Matthew: Colorado. So, the mistakes they’re making there is they’re not adhering to best practices in Colorado.

Armando: Well what happened is that Colorado was the first one to legalize rec, as well as medical. And a lot of new entrants in the market were pulled out from many other states. For example, I remember being in Florida just the week where they actually legalized rec in Colorado. I literally saw the growers in Florida packing and leaving for Colorado. So Colorado got an immense amount of new people that did not know what the hell they were doing. It’s just a consequence of being first, I think, more than anything else. For example, by contrast when you look at the growers 15-20 years ago, the few growers that you could actually get into their grow 15-20 years ago in California, those were hardcore.

Matthew: Hardcore in what way?

Armando: In every way they were hardcore scientists. They were hardcore. It was very criminal activity 20 years ago. So they were very secretive. They were very focused. They were very good growers. The new entrant is really not that great of a grower.

Matthew: How about mixing air thoroughly into the grows? What are some best practices you can give us there about getting the air mixture right?

Armando: The air mixture in the air, or the air mixture in the water?

Matthew: Let’s go with both.

Armando: Let’s start with the air. That’s kind of the obvious one. Absolutely. The air needs to be clean. CO2 which a lot of people see it as a thing you do on the side. Let me remind to all of your listeners that CO2 is actually the (24.03 unclear). All the little stuff that you put in the water are the vitamins. The real nutrient, the only nutrient that plants use is CO2. So, such in the mix, having CO2 in the mix. I at least have an idea of what’s happening is very important. Of course the king of all limiters in every growing system is the humidity in the air. Plants grow better when they’re warm, but you cannot get too warm, if you’re too humid, otherwise you suffocate your workers and you suffocate your plants eventually. So the air makes the environment of the canopy is absolutely critical in the success of it.

Now a point that is less, a road that is less traveled by many growers is actually paying attention of what is happening in the gases that are actually in the solution. So, in irrigation, the water temperature, and I’ve seen a few instances where that has become a problem. Either the water was too warm or that the water was too cold. In the case of the water being too warm, it was always an oxygen problem, which that’s why I asked the question, is this the air, in the solution the air in the air. So yeah, oxygenation of the water is one of those next step things where we don’t know yet much about it, but we have strong hints that it’s one of those what you don’t know can come bit you in the butt when you least suspect it.

Matthew: What about electricity in terms of you stated your preference and obviously it’s ideal to be having some sort of outdoor greenhouse in a sunny place. How much electric light should be used ideally versus sunlight, and what is the ideal versus practical here, just so people can get a sense of how much electrical light versus sunlight they should be using in different circumstances. Because sometimes it’s a possibility and sometimes it’s not. Sometimes you might live in a place where a greenhouse could be outside, but they’re not getting enough light. How do you arrive at the right balance between natural light and then some supplement?

Armando: It really has to do with the need of the plants. So it’s the idea situation and the ideal building is really the one that provides the best for the maximum performance of the plants. Site choosing is actually of primary importance here. Because depending on where you build a grow, it’s where you’re going to be able to put a greenhouse or to put a warehouse or put a combination, which is a greenhouse with supplemental lighting. So, in a place that doesn’t get too cold, a greenhouse with supplemental lighting is probably the one that is going to bring the biggest bang for the buck.

Matthew: Do you see that happening a lot where people have greenhouses with the supplemental LEDs or traditional lights?

Armando: Well, I’m kind of just one of those finicky crops that are (27.54 unclear). So it’s very reactive to the amount of light that you put on it. So most of the people building real greenhouses. Hold the thought on real greenhouse. If they are building a real greenhouse, they are generally putting supplemental lighting to it, because you’re never away from a cloudy day, even in sunny places.

Matthew: How do you see the produce growers using vertical space different than the cannabis growers or what tips could cannabis growers use from the produce growers on vertical space?

Armando: To be fairly frank with you, I think it’s boondoggling both markets.

Matthew: Okay, why is that?

Armando: Again, it’s when you start running the dollars that matters. Even on the veggie side, most of the vertical farmers—when you start scratching the surface you actually find that they’re very good at raising money from venture capital, but the system is actually highly impractical and not very productive. I would seriously caution many of the cannabis growers of the perversion that is being created by vertical farming on the veggie side, which I think funnily enough it’s a provision that actually comes from the cannabis side.

The only ones that were using lights inside a building for many years were of course the cannabis growers. Now a handful of lettuce growers have caught on to the fact that you can do that in a warehouse, and yes you can grow profitable lettuce, but when you start running the numbers, yes, you can grow profitable lettuce inside a warehouse, but you can grow it even more profitably inside a greenhouse. So, yes you may be in a situation where you’re very good at raising capital. You can get $20 million to build a grow, and then suddenly you’re going to have a greenhouse grower that is going to build a greenhouse five miles down the road and is going to hand your ass to you. That’s what these guys need to start looking at is from the point of view of business. This is not a static market. This is changing really quick.

Matthew: Yes, and that’s a concern I have. I mean, particularly in California I had to see so much supply coming on in the next year or maybe 18 months, and I think cultivators aren’t thinking about that as much. I mean, yes there’s a large population. Yes, it’s legal. More people will be consuming it, but there are really some cultivators that are coming on at scale, big scale, that are going to be flooding the market with cannabis. I want to make sure that people that are going into this space have some sort of unique cultivation ideas, or at least aren’t going into it with what the reality is in mind.

Armando: Well, the argument is that a lot of these guys coming out in scale from greenhouse or from field are not going to match the quality of the indoor growers, which I believe it’s true for now. Notice the for now is the big caveat here. So many greenhouse growers, high tech greenhouse and low tech greenhouse, are not yet getting the quality that allows them to compete with the indoor growers, because the indoor growers just been doing it for 15-20 years. So of course they’re (32.24 unclear). Let me tell you, they will figure it out.

Matthew: Also you think about northern California, let’s say Mendocino County, the weather up there is good enough where people can grow outside and without a greenhouse even. I’m not saying that’s legal, but I just think that is something to be considered. They probably have to supplemental water and fertilizer, but still it’s outside and they don’t have to condition the air at all.

Armando: That’s way cheaper.

Matthew: Yeah, way cheaper. I don’t know, I’m concerned about it for all the people that are rushing into it with certain assumptions about how much profit they’re going to make, and there’s just going to be a huge deluge of supply. So, I’m hoping that people can think, hey what if this only half as profitable as I think it is. Can I still make money. That’s what I’m trying to get people to think about. The operational efficiencies like rolling tables, which maybe you can introduce this topic of rolling tables. What are rolling tables? What’s a good way to think about using them to make a grow operation more efficient?

Armando: Well the rolling table is really a consequence of growing indoors. Either in a greenhouse, which is where they come from, or in a warehouse where their benefits are incredible. The role of a rolling table is that you basically only have one aisle that moves between table to between table. That way you occupy the maximum amount of space inside that square footage that you actually paid for it. So, when you build a greenhouse or when you build a warehouse the square footage that you build is a sunken cost. The lamps that you put or the greenhouse that you have are already also sunken cost. So you want to maximize the use of them as much as possible. By that is you minimize the aisle space. However, if you build a place that has no aisle, well you cannot enter and work into your crop. So, that’s why you build tables that can move, and then you only have one aisle that moves to table to table.

Matthew: How could you paint a picture of what that looks like for someone that’s never seen it before?

Armando: That’s an interesting question. Well, most of these growers are very used to those 4X8 tables that they put on rollers. It’s basically the same type of tray or table, but instead of being 4X8, it’s 4X100. You have six or seven of those literally slammed together in a greenhouse. When you need to start working between two tables you just move the one table to create the aisle. You enter that aisle where you do your work on both sides of the aisle, and then you close the aisle and you open the aisle between the next two tables. I have videos by the way of that.

Matthew: Actually that might be a good thing. If you have videos of that, maybe I can put that in the show notes for people to take a look at some examples of rolling tables where if they want to get a look.

Armando: Basically those are actually standard equipment in ornamental greenhouses, which are the vast majority of the greenhouses in the U.S.

Matthew: You gave me an example earlier when we were talking offline about tomatoes and how to save time clipping them to wires. Can you introduce what you meant by that and what cannabis growers can take away from that idea?

Armando: Again, it’s bringing back the idea of the operational efficiency. In tomatoes, the tomato vine is a very long vine that is 40-45 feet at the end of its life. So they hang that vine with a string from a cable that is at the top of the greenhouse. Every week they’re going to lower that cable to basically lower the vine to where you don’t have to get onto a 40 foot ladder to harvest the tomatoes, and then you always have tomatoes at the height of the worker. It used to be that the way to tie the tomato to the twine was to tie it literally to wind the twine around the tomato vine, but you can see that when you unhook it, and you run the twine around the tomato stem, well it takes what? Two, three, four seconds in the operation. Nowadays most of the growers are not twisting the twine around the stem because it takes about four or five seconds per plant. Instead they’re doing a clip.

Now when you look at the cost of the clip, let’s say the cost of the clip is one cent, but now instead of spending five seconds doing that operation, that operation takes one second. So you gain four cents in that operation. You gain four seconds in that operation. Now imagine you have tomato greenhouse that is one million plants, which is right about most of them are, one million times four seconds. That’s 4,000 seconds. That’s 4 million seconds sorry. Four million seconds, that’s a lot of man hours.

Matthew: Right, that’s a lot of plants. That’s a lot of plants for sure.

Armando: Yes but that’s the thing is when you start calculating by large scale things. Every little operation where you can get a second here and a second there, and that’s a really large amount at the end.

Matthew: Yeah, and that’s the point I think, even if you don’t have a million plants, if you have 1,000 or 100, you could pretend hypothetically. What if this hundred or thousand plants I have, what if it was a million? What would I have to do differently to increase my efficiency. It’s a good mental exercise to get you where you need to go and where to be thinking.

Armando: Yes, and that’s a mental exercise that every grower should actually do themselves in their own operation. There is always room for improvement, and that is part of the job of a grower is to actually improve that.

Matthew: As you look out the next three to five years, where do you think cultivation for cannabis will be? How will it have evolved to increase operational efficiency in your mind?

Armando: I think that’s the million dollar question. I may make a lot of enemies with what I’m about to say. I see a lot of the market going into extracts. If you’re really going to extracts, the difference between outdoor and indoor is academic. Most of those extracts are going to come from outdoor crops, as soon as they are legal. Depending on how the legal map looks like, most of that production, which is probably going to be the bulk of the cannabis market, is going to be outdoors. Now the market for flower, for smokable flower, there will always be that market. The indoor grows are going to become completely and absolutely niche where only very small guys that do very specific niche products are going to survive. All the rest is going to be greenhouse.

Matthew: That’s interesting. It definitely is congruent with a cannabis investor we had on the show a few months back, Anthony Wile, who is moving his production facilities for PharmaCielo. Him and the CEO have everything down in Colombia, because they think it’s the lowest—it’s the ideal place to grow and also the lowest cost. So they’re starting with the end in mind. They agree with you. That’s where the market is moving so they’re putting all their cultivation facilities down there. It’s really interesting to see other people are starting to see this and think this. I guess what you’re saying is you can be a low cost producer and grow outside, or you’re going to really need to have some compelling reason why consumers should pay more for your high cost grow. That could be a terpene profile or who knows what, but there’s got to be some reason. Is that what you’re getting at?

Armando: Absolutely.

Matthew: Okay. Armando, I like to ask a couple personal development questions to give listeners to know who you are a little bit more. With that, is there a book that’s had a big impact on your thinking or way of life that you would like to share with listeners?

Armando: Not on my way of life, but it would be certainly a book that every grower out there should have on his shelf.

Matthew: Okay, let’s hear it. We got to know.

Armando: Hydroponic Crops from Howard Resh. That book, which is probably an 800 page (43.15 unclear) that you can bludgeon some people to death with, is probably all you need to know about hydroponic crops.

Matthew: Okay, very good. I haven’t hear that suggestion before. It’s great. Is there a tool, it could be a web based tool or a physical tool that you use daily or weekly that you consider valuable to your productivity that you would like to share?

Armando: Yes. It might come completely out of the left field for most people. I would suggest to most people that one of the greatest tool ever invented is a pen. Take notes. If I would suggest, actually buy a nice pen, not just any pen.

Matthew: What’s a nice pen to you, like a (44.15 unclear) or what.

Armando: No that’s too nice. That’s too nice. Yes I actually use fountain pen to take notes, because the connection that your soul is directly connected to the point of that pen. And the notes that you take from a computer and the notes that you take on paper with a pen actually have a great difference in quality.

Matthew: That’s interesting. I noticed there’s a lot of different kinds of learners out there. There’s some people that process information much better when they’re hearing it. Then they write it out in notes. There’s some people that what to hear and they don’t want to do the notes so they’ll record whatever is going on, like a lecture, so they can later come back to it. There’s all these different kinds of learning styles to match different brain types.

Armando: The thing here is because it’s a nice pen. It’s a sensory experience. So when you’re actually putting the words on paper you actually feel it. It’s not just I’m taking notes. I’m actually taking notes with a nice pen.

Matthew: Are you talking you use one of those old school fountain pens where you’re dipping it in an ink well?

Armando: Well that’s too old school but if you want to yes, except that’s kind of impractical when you’re in the field.

Matthew: Yeah, okay. So use a nice pen, but not too nice. Does yours have a leather veneer on yours? I’m just trying to visualize what nice is.

Armando: Something like that yes.

Matthew: Ostrich skin.

Armando: Yes.

Matthew: Armando thanks for coming on the show and educating us about the latest in growing technology. How can listeners learn more about Grodan and get closer to you and follow more of your work?

Armando: We have a lot of information on the website. We’re actually coming out with a new website. The original website is www.grodan101.com. Don’t go to grodan.com because grodan.com is the veggie guys. We also have www.grodan-mmj.com.

Matthew: More strictly focused on cannabis market. We appreciate that. We’ll definitely put in the show notes a video of rolling tables so people can visualize. Really I’m glad you’re expanding our thinking Armando. I really think it’s important to be ahead of the curve. There’s only going to be two types of people. They’re going to be ahead of the curve, anticipating these things, and then people that are behind the curve that said what happened. I definitely want CannaInsider listeners to be in the first group ahead of the curve. So, thanks for helping us get there.