In this interview Michael Beck of Royal Gold reveals the optimal growing medium for cannabis plants. He also tells us to avoid the most common problems new and veteran growers make.
[2:04] – What is Royal Gold
[2:39] – Michael discusses how he got started in the soil business
[3:13] – Soil’s role in creating a healthy plant
[4:16] – What makes a thriving plant
[5:54] – Overwatering, the biggest mistake made by first time growers
[6:54] – Michael discusses healthy microbiology
[10:33] – Michael talks about oxygenation
[11:18] – Advice to veteran growers
[12:30] – Trying new techniques in your grow
[13:53] – How to optimize cannabis yield with fertilizer
[16:22] – Michael talks about ph levels
[19:15] – What is EC
[24:32] – Treating water before using it on plants
[26:46]- -Fertilizing for small grows and earthworm casting
[30:34] – Signs of too much water
[33:15] – Michael talks about what makes Royal Gold stand out
[34:33] – Contact details for Royal Gold
*Guess What? You could be listening to this interview on your commute. Get the FREE CannaInsider Podcast*
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What are the ideal soil conditions for your cannabis plants? Michael Beck of Royal Gold is going to help us sort through all the different options and help us understand the optimal soil conditions for cannabis. Welcome to CannaInsider Michael.
Michael: Thank you very much Matt.
Matthew: To give us a sense of geography, can you tell us where you are in the world today?
Michael: I am in Northern California in our production offices in Arcata, California.
Matthew: Now I want to get into how to make cannabis plants thrive, but before we do can you tell us a little about, a little bit about what Royal Gold is?
Michael: Well Royal Gold is a coco fiber based soil company. We’ve been at it about 10 years now with the goal of improving gardens, cannabis and otherwise, from the bottom up. There’s so many packaged soil products out there that are made with ingredients that we consider inferior for soil building. We saw the writing on the wall moving towards a more sustainable, functional alternative to those products and began making these coco based mediums with performance in mind.
Matthew: How did you get started in the soil business?
Michael: You know I studied plant sciences as a way to get through high school adding college credits, and at that point my interests were peaked and you know dove down that road into plant nutrition and plant sciences and just been focused on that ever since.
Matthew: Now we hear a lot about hydroponics and aeroponics and obviously your preference is for soil. How should we think about soil and cannabis plants and plants in general? What role does soil play in really creating a healthy plant?
Michael: Well it all gets started in the soil. All of your nutrient absorption, all of the metabolic processes, using the microbes to convert your nutrients into usable forms, all that’s happening in the soil or the medium in hydroponics. We are focused on mediums. Soils are definitely a big part of what we do, but soilless mediums are also a big part of what we do. We’re trying to provide the same concepts that people focus on in their soil into hydroponics allowing the medium to do the work, to cycle the nutrients, to be the home for the beneficial biology and to actually provide that safe home for your roots.
Matthew: Now I’m sure you agree there are dozens of things to keep in mind when you’re trying to maximize harvest of cannabis plants, but if you were to rank them in terms of importance, I mean, obviously light, water soil conditions. What are some other things that growers should really keep in mind when trying to create a thriving plant?
Michael: Balance is the key. You know all the things you mentioned are absolutely the roots of it. You have to have healthy soil which is going to really hinge upon your balance of oxygen and water and the ability to retain both and keep both in balance. You’re also going to be definitely focused on the gas exchange. You need the CO2 and the oxygen levels in the atmosphere around your plant to be correct too, so it can breathe and respirate the way it wants to outside of the soil as well as within the soil. And really the other super paramount, important thing is the biology. You really need to be focusing on the microbiology that’s occurring on your leaves and in your root zone because that’s really giving your plant the tools to break down the things it wants. And it’s acting in concert with your plant.
Your plant’s releasing things to the microbiology in the soil in exchange for other things from the microbiology. The plant is saying, here I’m going to give you some sugars, but I really need some phosphorus, and they’ve got an exchange going and that does not happen unless you’re bearing that biology in mind and giving it the things it needs.
Matthew: What would you say first time growers get wrong with soil that would be easily changed?
Michael: The number one thing we hear about with beginning gardeners in all walks of life is overwatering. You hear that from garden stores. You hear it from soil companies, nutrient companies. Everyone has the same thing. Everyone’s overwatering to start and overfeeding is the number two. People think oh this plant needs food. It’s dying, I need to give it more food. Well a lot of times you do need more food, but most of the time if you’re providing a full strength, full nutrient program, everything’s there. You don’t need to increase it. You need to make sure the plant’s using it properly, and part of that is allowing the soil to go from a wet to dry cycle so the microbiology is living and functioning and cycling the nutrients for you.
Matthew: So I hear about microbiology a lot, and I’m familiar with, you know, compost tea and things like that. How do you create healthy microbiology? I’m sure it starts with a healthy soil. How do you continue to regenerate that healthy microbiology during the plant’s lifecycle to ensure optimal plants’ conditions?
Michael: Well you nailed it with the compost tea, and the earthwork casting teas are a great place to start.
Matthew: Can you back up and tell us a little bit about what that is because I just threw that concept out there, but I didn’t explain what it is. What is a compost tea in warm castings?
Michael: Basically a compost tea or a earthworm casting tea is where you take a small quantity of compost or earthworm castings and you take it and put it in, you know, like a tea bag and put that in a container of water. And you take the two million or so bacteria that are in your compost, you add some sugars to the water, you aerate the water so you’ve got this tea bag with two million bacteria sitting in a tub of oxygenated water with food for the bacteria. And all of a sudden these two million replicate into two billion or three billion or ten billion bacteria. So you’re taking a small amount and growing them into a much larger amount and applying those directly to your root zone or in a foliar way, to the surface of the leaves. And that is really a great way to kind of bring these bacteria in to kind of reinoculate and keep the bacterial populations healthy. Much like eating a yogurt a day keeps the intestinal bacteria healthy.
Matthew: Right, and plants really do love that compost tea. I mean can you screw up compost tea, aeration so there’s bubbling oxygenated water being added to this compost tea. If you have a handful of good compost, and you put it in a cheesecloth or a nut bag or something like this so it’s porous, is that really all there is to it? There’s no, it’s not any kind of scientific process. It’s pretty easy to do.
Michael: It’s not rocket science. You know there is science behind it, but it’s not something everyone has to have a complete understanding of to get the benefits of. You know that’s the beauty of compost tea. As long as your water is oxygenated, and you’re getting a little bit of a food source and you’re getting an inoculant, your compost or earthworm castings in there, you’re going to have success. It needs to be oxygenated, aerobic bacteria, the ones that thrive in oxygen rich environments are much more beneficial as a blanket statement to your plants. So you want to avoid creating these anaerobic or bacteria that exists without the presence of oxygen. Those are most of the time leaning more towards pathogens and things you don’t want going on in the soil. So it’s important to aerate and it’s important to provide a sugar source as food for those bacteria, but really it’s pretty simple. You know you get the couple ingredients together. You keep them aerated and you’re going to have success with that.
Matthew: Okay. And what’s the sugar source you typically use?
Michael: You know some people swear by molasses and you know there’s a lot of people saying now, oh we don’t want to use any sugars. You only want to feed carbohydrates, but molasses works. Unsulphured, organic molasses is a great way to introduce people. As people dig in deeper and want to get more advanced with the specific microbes they’re nourishing, it’s a worm hole. You could go forever learning more and more about the microbiology and how to tailor it to your wants and needs, but a good, safe way to get started is using that unsulphured, organic black strap molasses.
Matthew: And when you say you oxygenate it, how do you do that? Do you just pick up some sort of electrical oxygenation device from a hardware store and drop it in the bucket?
Michael: Yeah that works great. You know, just a standard aquarium style air stone will get the job done. Water also oxygenates well when it’s falling so a lot of people will use power head style pumps where it pulls the water up and then dumps it back in on top of the surface and forces it down into the water. There are several ways to oxygenate, and those are the two most popular. Either a power head style oxygenator or just air stones.
Matthew: What about veteran growers? We talked about first time growers, but veteran growers tend to get somewhat stuck in their ways at times, good or bad. Is there anything that you would suggest in terms of soil quality or how to think about soil in a way that could help a veteran grower?
Michael: The important thing with veteran growers and you know we’re in Humboldt County, we deal with a lot of veteran growers who come in here and they know exactly what they want and how they want it done. And one thing I want to remind people to do is to keep learning. Just because it’s worked for you one way at one time doesn’t mean there aren’t other ways or more effective ways. Everything works once you dial your system in. There’s so many products on the market and so many different ways to grow plants effectively. Everything works. It’s a matter of what works best for you in your situation, and we find that our coco mediums work better for more people in more situations and that’s really the goal we’re looking for is to provide success consistently in a way that works for people.
Matthew: And if you’re a new grower, you don’t have to bet the farm on some sort of new process. You can just take a couple plants or make a small sliver of your grow room into an experimental zone and just try out new things in a controlled environment where if you lose a few plants or if you do something wrong, it’s not a big deal.
Michael: I’m so glad that you mentioned that Matt. That is the way that our company has built from the beginning is you know let’s try something new. And let’s try it versus what’s working. You know we’ve got this system that’s working well. Let’s side-by-side and do 30 percent just to see. You know you have to give something a fair shake. You can’t do one plant or one little row and expect to get an even idea of how your system is working. So you really want to do an accurate, comparable side-by-side comparison to really see the differences, and we encourage people to do that with any product they’re switching to or trying for the first time is give it its due diligence on its own next to something else that works.
Matthew: We have a lot of new growers that are moving into large grow spaces in Nevada, in Oregon and soon Alaska that are not really that familiar with all the plant management that they need to be. They’re coming up to speed, but can you give us a little bit of an intro to fertilizer? Typically on the side of a fertilizer bag you’ll see N for Nitrogen, P for Phosphorus and K for Potassium, but how do those three things work together and how should we think about that in terms of optimizing our cannabis yield?
Michael: Well the basis of the NPK is that those are the three most primary plant nutrients, right. They’re the most, they’re absolutely required. You cannot grow any plant without nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium and different plants require different balances of them. And specifically with the cannabis plant it requires very different balance of NPK from say the beginning to the end and throughout the cycle as it goes through its changes. You know in the beginning of a plant’s flowering cycle, it’s going to be using a lot of nitrogen to stretch to produce extra vegetive growth to create the groundwork and foundation to build the flowers. And after it pushes through that kind of hormonal growth after the first two weeks of flowering, you start consuming more phosphorus and more potassium as you start to build the plant tissue that is your flower.
They’re absolutely important and you really want to look at how the plant you are growing is consuming your NPK. If you’re growing a ten week plant, it’s going to be different than if you’re growing a six week plant. You’re going to need more nitrogen for a longer period of time on a ten week plant, and you’re going to need to pushing that phosphorus and potassium harder, earlier in a six week plant. So it’s really important to know the plant you’re doing, and to look at those details based on the plant you’re doing not just a blanket statement, not just a blanket number on a fertilizer bag. You really need to look at the cycle of your plant and the timing to apply it.
Matthew: Just a brief interruption to the show to remind you that CannaInsider is moving to a new show schedule. Look for a fresh new episode every Monday. Occasionally we’ll be creating a special edition show or a rerun of a popular show that will run on Wednesday. Again look for a fresh new episode every Monday. Now back to your program.
How about Ph, that’s relative acidity and alkalinity, but how do you think about that? I mean how would you explain that to someone that’s pretty new? And then if you have too alkaline or too acidic, how do you dial that in to get it back to the right spot?
Michael: Well that’s a very deep question. I’ll try and keep it simple on that one, but ph is 100 percent the basis of how things are going to happen in your soil. Like you were saying it’s the acidity versus alkalinity, but really on a more basic level it’s the amount of hydrogen in existence in the soil that is affecting and controlling that alkalinity or acidity. And you have a range of optimal and a range of tolerable ph. In most situations you’re going to be looking at an optimal range of about 5.8 to 6.3, that’s going to be exactly what your plants are wanting. They’re going to be able to provide all of the nutrients. They are going to be able to assimilate all of the nutrients from the soil. The roots can get in there and exist comfortably in about a 5.8 to 6.3 soil.
Your plant’s going to tolerate, you know, anything down to 5 or 4.8. It may not tolerate it well, but once you start getting down that low or up above the low 7s in your ph, your roots can’t absorb the nutrients anymore effectively. You may be able to absorb one nutrient more effectively than other, but you’re not going to have a balanced nutrient absorption right. So that’s really you just got to make sure to keep that in control. And you do that with ph up or down by adding an acid or an alkaline. And the easiest way to do it is to start with a medium that’s going to remain in your happy zone, and it’s going to stick with a buffer. Coco fiber, our coco products come out in the mid sixes typically. And they’re going to hold that ph or the ph of the water that you continue to feed with.
So if you’re adjusting your ph of your nutrient solution say to a, you know, 6.0 or a 5.8, you’re going to go through and check that medium a week later after you continue to water, and your medium is going to be holding at a very steady range right around that 5.8 to 6.0 mark and your roots are going to be happy. A lot of mediums like say peat moss, it’s acidic. You’re going to always be fighting to keep that ph happy because the natural ph of the peat moss isn’t in the ideal range of what your plants want. So you’re going to continually be bringing your ph up or down to adjust it, to keep it in that ideal zone.
Matthew: How do you measure that ph? Is there like a little stick or something you put in?
Michael: There are various electrodes and ph meters ranging from simple probes that are more or less effective, not super accurate, but they’re going to give you a decent idea. You can buy those at any home improvement store or Lowes or a Home Depot. You can find an affordable ph meter that you moisten your soil, you stick this probe in, and it’s going to give you an idea of where you’re at. If you’re looking for a real, exact understanding, you’re going to need to go into a specialty hydroponics store and talk to an expert about it and get yourself a ph meter where you’re analyzing the water or the runoff of your medium to get a much more accurate reading.
Matthew: Okay. Now there’s a somewhat esoteric term. It’s pretty new to me and that’s EC. Can you describe what that is and how we should think about that?
Michael: Well EC is another tricky one especially for beginners. As you start to get into a deeper understanding of plants, EC becomes a little less daunting. And the EC stands for electrical conductivity, right. So that kind of expresses the conductivity and ability to move current through your plant or through your nutrient solution or soil, right.
Matthew: Is this kind of how we would think about electricity moving through copper versus silver versus water versus wood, like how easily it flows?
Michael: Similar, similar. You know most people end up basing these EC readings on parts per million. So it’s kind of a tricky thing. You’re really looking at what your nutrient contains. You know people are looking at EC and plant matter in your material like in your soil, and they’re looking at nutrient solution EC as kind of the same thing and that’s not always the case. So this is a very tricky subject to kind of dip into on a short term conversation. But the EC say on your nutrient solution is very very very important. If your EC is too high, you have too many dissolved solids or parts per million suspended, you’re going to cook your plants. There’s too much nutrient there for your plant to assimilate properly, right. And vice versa with your EC being very low there’s not enough in there to provide the nutrients you need for your plant.
In soils it’s very similar but you can have a much different reading. In the soil you can have an EC reading of 2.0 maybe higher, but it’s showing everything that’s in that soil. You know you’re taking a run off of your soil to test EC typically, and you’re showing everything whether it’s available or not that is in that soil. You’re showing the tiny little bits of pearl. You’re showing tiny little bits of bat guano and non-available nutrient and any particular that comes off in that runoff is going to be showing as a part of your EC or a part of your PPMs. And that’s always directly assimilable. If you are checking your nutrient solution, you’re looking at pretty much directly assimilable nutrient. So a 2.0 on a liquid nutrient is going to be much stronger than a 2.0 on a soil.
So really these EC numbers can be very deceiving. I get calls all the time from people saying hey I checked the runoff on my Mendo Mix, which is a very strong soil. It’s heavily amended with organic amendment. So it’s not all directly available. They’re getting these high EC readings, and they’re worried about burning their plants because they have experience with nutrient solutions where hey that 2.2 EC burned my plants. Well it’s not necessarily the same with a runoff from your soil because of availability.
Matthew: So it sounds like it’s say something that you look at, but it’s not something that maybe you get a granular depth of knowledge from, but it’s something that you take into your entire calculation of to what’s going on with this plant and so on.
Michael: Absolutely. If you’re starting with a soil that’s very high in EC, you’ll want to start with a nutrient solution that’s a little lower in EC, and as your plants consume what’s available in that soil, you’ll be bringing your EC of your nutrient solutions back up. It’s just kind of a balance.
Matthew: Once of the things that I find so troubling is that you know you and I are talking about creating this wonderful soil environment , and then we get tap water from a municipality such as the one I’m in right now and most across the United States, only San Diego and I believe Portland, maybe one or two others have forbidden the use of sodium fluoride or fluoride in the water. So there’s fluoride and typically chlorine in the water which are toxins. And they really can hurt a plant or a human being quite a bit. They may only be in 14 parts per million, but it’s still something, you know, I take out with reverse osmosis. What do you… how do you think about that? I mean are you treating water or do you suggest the water be treated in some way before going to your plant?
Michael: I absolutely do. I also am blessed enough to live in a place that doesn’t put that in the water.
Matthew: Oh lucky. Well see you know it doesn’t surprise that Humboldt has figured that out. So that’s great.
Michael: It’s actually not even all of Humboldt. I few of our larger municipalities do have fluoride and it’s a couple of the smaller once that are still holding out. So I think as more and more people become aware of this it’s going to fall out of being introduced in our water source like that. Fluoride is great for your teeth, but it’s not meant to be consumed in the way that people are putting it in the water. But with any of those toxins I absolutely agree with you Matt. Those need to be filtered out. If you have any ways or means to filter them out, reverse osmosis is a great way to do it. If you don’t have any other means, even just filling your water and letting it bubble through an air stone like we were talking about oxygenating your compost tea. That’s going to break down the chlorine and help to off gas some of those other chemicals. And while it may not be a perfect solution, if it’s the only solution you have, at least oxygenated your water for 24 hours before use to kind of do everything you can to off gas those toxins.
Matthew: Great point. Great point. The problem then with reverse osmosis is that it strips everything out. So you have no trace minerals or trace elements left. That’s why I typically add a pinch of sea salt into a gallon of water that’s gone through the reverse osmosis process. So you’re solving one problem but introducing another that’s not that bad of a problem, but you know you’re trying to get trace minerals. I didn’t think about the oxygenation, but that’s a great suggestion there. Now we talked about the large scale grow. Let’s just take it down to someone that just has one or two plants. Can you take coffee grounds or egg shells or anything from your kitchen, your compost pile and throw them on top? It seems like coffee grounds are very easily digested by a plant’s root system. They’re ready to go. It’s already broken down quite a bit where some other things aren’t. Do you suggest something like that or is that just too much nitrogen to be—and I’m thinking it’s nitrogen I’m not sure—to be throwing on a plant?
Michael: You know my main concern would not come from a nutrient. It would be coming from the ability to harbor some sort of pathogen or pest. And I personally would not add anything to my garden that hasn’t been composted properly. You don’t want to add those egg shells. You don’t want to add those coffee grounds unless you put them through a worm composter or compost them yourself first to kind of do that initial process, to let the bacteria do the work to remove the pathogens and get those nutrients available. Most of the time if you were to add that immediately to your plant, it’s not going to be available in the time that your plant needs it anyway. You’re running a six to ten week plant most of the time. That’s not a whole lot of time for composting processes and things like that to happen within the soil.
Matthew: Good point.
Michael: So it’s nice to have them pre-composted, pre-ready to go, ready to absorb when you put them in your container or onto your plant.
Matthew: Worm casting, from earthworms, everybody knows what that means and why earthworms are farmers’ best friends, but are you actually talking about getting perhaps a container of worms that can eat your food and compost and such? Is that what you’re referring to?
Michael: Absolutely. Home vermicomposting is one of the best things you can do for our environment, for your own backyard environment, for your own waste stream in general without even getting into the benefits and glory of worm castings for your garden. There’s a great book called Worms Eat My Garbage. I encourage everyone to look up vermicomposting on some level or another. It’s super easy to do. Kids love it, and you get a great great return for it.
Matthew: Some people call the worm castings gold. I’ve heard them refer to it that it’s just so valuable for their garden that they call it gold.
Michael: Yeah absolutely, and you know earthworms are these amazing creatures that have the ability to take soil pathogens and even human within the soil, e-coli and things like that, and the bacteria that the worms create literally eats and converts these pathogens to beneficial bacteria and this wave of beneficial bacteria literally radiates out from the worm hole. As they tunnel in through the soil, the good bacteria just grow and radiate out from their tunnels and reclaim and revitalize the soil. So it’s an amazing thing that the worms do.
Matthew: If you had a gallon bucket of worms then you’re throwing in compost to feed the worms, can you give us an idea of how much they can eat through, how quickly so people get a sense?
Michael: You know they can eat through, in a five gallon bucket, you’ll eat through several pounds of food in a week depending on your environment. It’s tough to generalize, but temperature, humidity, all of your outside environmental influences play a huge role with worms just as they do in your garden. You’ve got to give them the proper environment to get them to thrive the way you want them to. So what they eat will be directly dependent on their environment.
Matthew: I want to circle back to something you said earlier and that was that the number one rookie mistake or rookie grower mistake is too much water. What are the symptoms of too much water? I mean I’ve been guilty of this myself, and you kind of, you know, like a watched pot never boils. Well when you’ve got, you know, a small amount of plants you’re just looking at them all the time and trying to tweak them, and you’re doing too much typically. But what’s the sign that you’re giving too much water?
Michael: It’s tricky because it looks a lot like you’re under watering. It will start to droop a little bit. They’ll start to kind of just lose that little bit of vigor. The leaf tips will curl down. The tissue will start to lose that nice glow that it has. Healthy plant tissue just seems to emanate light. It tends to glow when your plant’s healthy. And as it tends to go into over watering it, it just kind of looks murky. You know you start to lose that vibrance, and you can kind of see a little bit of a tightening of the leaves and just kind of down turns. And people think oh it’s wilting. I need to give a little water. Well they give some water and it just doesn’t help. And the problem is you open the door for all sorts of pathogens; fusarium and pythium and root diseases that once that is established, letting your plant dry out and get back to a proper water and dry cycle isn’t necessarily going to save the day.
While you may recover somewhat from over watering, you’re never going to cover all the way unless you catch it right at the very beginning. So you know, it’s very important to make sure your soil dries out between waterings. It doesn’t have to get bone dry, but it has to dry to the point where your plant has oxygen.
Matthew: What’s the cadence here or interval you’re speaking of when you say between water and dry. How long is that typically?
Michael: It also depends very very much on your medium. In a hydroponic situation people use our Tupur which is our soilist medium, and they’ll water it, you know, two or three times a day because they’re keeping it in a smaller container. It breathes well and the plant sucks that water out of it quickly. Most people in a hand watered garden, the most common style where you dump some soil in a pot and water it with a hose, you’re going to water about every two to four days. And in those initial waterings when you plant up, you water, you’re probably going to wait up to a week before you need to water again. You want to let those roots stretch out and occupy the soil before you begin starting to push the water. The plant can only absorb as much water as the roots can absorb. So you have to have a healthy root mass to be able to support a heavy watering program.
Matthew: If I’m walking into a hydroponics store, my local garden center where Royal Gold is, let’s say there’s Royal Gold and Sunshine #4. How should I choose? What makes Royal Gold stand out?
Michael: Well as I said before all these things work, and they all work in different ways for different people. If I was choosing between Sunshine #4 and a Royal Gold medium, I would reach immediately for the Tupur. The Tuper is our aeration style formula. It’s coco fiber based. So it’s going to cycle nutrients a little more effectively, and it’s going to hold a better balance of air to water, and it’s not going to degrade as quickly.
So you are going to start with the same medium as you finish with. With peat moss based mediums it’s all cellulose. So those bacteria we’ve been talking about this whole time are chewing through the cellulose in your medium and breaking it down creating silt and sediment, taking these larger particles of peat moss and breaking them down into smaller and smaller particles. It causes more ph swings. It causes more variance in your water and air holding capacity. Our coco fiber based Tupur is going to provide a much more stable reality for your roots in that you’re going to be able to water as aggressively. You’re going to hold the oxygen you want to in your medium, and you’re just going to have a better all around result.
Matthew: Michael as we close, how can listeners learn more about Royal Gold?
Michael: Well there are a lot of ways to learn more about Royal Gold. You can look us up online at www.royalgoldcoco.com. That’s www.royalgoldcoco.com. We’re also all over social media under Royal Gold Soils. You can search us there on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram. We’re also available on MassRoots which is really taken off. It’s kind of a new social media.
Matthew: Sure we’ve had Isaac Dietrich, CEO of MassRoots on here. A great platform.
Michael: Yeah it’s really blowing up quickly out there. So it’s a cool things those guys have going. But yeah we’re available all over social media. Just search Royal Gold Soil online, and we’ll be popping up right towards the top of every search you do.
Matthew: Great. Well Michael thank you so much for being on CannaInsider today. We really appreciate it.
Michael: Well thank you Matt. Thanks for having me. I’ve really enjoyed it.
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