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Cannabis Geneticist Shares How To Have Thriving Plants

mowgli holmes

Mowgli Holmes, PhD is the co-founder and CEO of Phylos Bioscience in Portland.

Mowgli and his team provide fast affordable sex tests for cannabis plants and also offer plant genetics tests. Listen in as Mowgli shares his knowledge of plant genetics so you can have thriving plants.

Learn more at:

Key Takeaways:
[0:55] – What is Phylos Bioscience
[1:20] – Mowgli’s background
[3:21] – Mowgli talks about sequencing the cannabis genome
[5:29] – Mowgli explains Phylos’s plant tests
[7:08] – Benefits of genetic testing
[9:48] – Accelerating plant growth to get more seeds
[12:47] – Misconceptions of plant science
[14:59] – Common questions about Phylos tests
[17:01] – Timeline of tests
[20:47] – Naming the cannabis
[23:43] – Matt throws Mowgli a hypothetical
[25:08] – Plant genetic sciences and testing in the next five years
[27:17] – Mowgli answers some personal development questions
[29:41] – Contact details for Phylos Bioscience

What are the five trends that will disrupt the cannabis industry in the next five years?Find out with your free cheat sheet at.

Read Full Transcript

Today’s guest is a geneticist bringing modern science into the cannabis industry. I am pleased to welcome Dr. Mowgli Holmes, cofounder and Chief Executive Officer of Phylos Bioscience to CannaInsider today. Mowgli, welcome to CannaInsider.

Mowgli: Thank you. It’s good to be here.

Matthew: Give us a sense of geography. Where are you in the world today?

Mowgli: So, I’m at my company’s laboratory at the Oregon Health and Science University in Portland, Oregon.

Matthew: Okay. What is Phylos Bioscience on a high level?

Mowgli: We are a plant genetics company that works on cannabis. So we provide genetic testing and scientific tools to the cannabis industry.

Matthew: Okay, I want to dig in to what all that means, but give us a little bit of your back story and background. How did you get started in genetics science and specifically focusing on cannabis?

Mowgli: Me and my cofounder are from Oregon, and we grew up sort of in the woods in Oregon. Our parents were hippies and we’ve been around the cannabis culture in Oregon forever. He went away and became a business guy, and I went to New York and studied genetics, and then moved back in 2013. We got together. It was just the cannabis industry was exploding and had zero science, and it was pretty obvious right away that we were supposed to apply the genetics that I knew how to do to cannabis.

Matthew: Okay, so you’re trying to bring modern science to cannabis, and you want to bring what you know how to do to cannabis. What does that mean exactly, for people out there that are in this industry and are wondering what can Mowgli do for me?

Mowgli: All the modern agriculture is run on a lot of advanced science, and in particular plant genetics have transformed how we deal with growing plants in a bunch of different ways. We’re just bringing all of those over and applying them to cannabis. The first couple ways that we’ve been able to do that is we have some genetic tests that tell people things they need to know about the plant. Is it a male or a female? What is it actually? How is it related to everything else? What variety do you actually have? Then we’re starting to track down what genes control what traits and turning those into tools that will help breeders develop new kinds of plants.

Matthew: Okay. I can see where that could be very helpful. Just so we can get a little back story, we hear about sequencing the cannabis genome and things like that. You’re the right person to probably ask about where we are in that story and what’s important about it. Can you tell us anything?

Mowgli: Yeah, so when we started out we wanted to have a test that would let people identify their variety. So, we sequenced thousands of varieties in a collaboration with the American Museum of Natural History to understand the evolutionary back story of cannabis. We were using that dataset to offer this test that lets people finally figure out what they have and to let their customers know for the first time that they’re getting what they say they’re getting. We sequenced those thousands of varieties in a minimal way. We also took one variety and we sequenced the whole genome in lots and lots of detail, just the way they did with the human genome.

That had been done kind of sketchily before us. We did a much bigger, more detailed version and published it so everyone can work on it, but there’s still a lot of work to do on finishing the assembly and then learning to understand it. So, in terms of having full understanding of the genome we’re still really at the beginning.

Matthew: I mean, when that process is done you then said, it’s interpreting or understanding what that means, what the genome means and what it can do for you and what’s important to tease out of that. Do you have any kind of vision on what you think might be possible once that happens?

Mowgli: Yeah I mean, once we have the entire sequence, I mean, essentially every letter in the book that is the instruction book for cannabis, we’ll be able to start tracking down what genes control all the different metabolic pathways, and how all the different medicinal compounds in cannabis are created and how the plant grows. We’ll be able to make a mapping between different genes and different traits. All of that information will let us understand the plant better and it will also let us have incredible control over how we do breeding. We’ll be able to make very customized plants that have very customized medical properties.

Matthew: That sounds very exciting. Tell us a little bit about your plant tests.

Mowgli: So, the two tests that we have right now are plant sex tests, and we have a genetic identity test called Plylos Genotype. The plant sex test is simple. You order these cards from us, and we send them out and you smear part of the plant on the card. Right after it pops up and send it back into us. It’s totally legal, and we do a test called Quantitative PCR that we look for the white chromosome in the DNA. There’s DNA residue left on the card, so we pull that out of the card and we do this test and we look for the white chromosome. Then you get your results online the next day telling you which ones are males and which ones are females. As you know, growers who grow from seed need to get rid of those male plants in general, and it saves them a lot of time and money because they’re not watering and feeding and housing those male plants for weeks and weeks.

The other test, the genetic identity test is like 23 and Me, which is a human genetic identity test. It’s just applied to cannabis. It lets you see who you’re related to and what plant you really have. It’s really letting growers finally make a commitment to their customers when they give them something that this is what we say it is. Finally, you can always come back and get the same thing, if you find what’s working for you.

Matthew: As a cultivator or a grower, what do you think the biggest benefits are to having that genetic test like that available to them? What does that allow them to do?

Mowgli: So, there’s a lot of different pieces of science that cultivators need. These two genetic tests just touch on two very specific parts. If you grow from clone and you don’t care what you’re growing, these tests don’t help you at all. The sex test helps people who grow from seed. The genetic identity test helps people who really care about the identity of the plant they have and the promises they can make to their customers about it and about consistent medicine. In the future we’ll have tests that help people identify what traits their plants will have when they’re mature, just at the seedling stage, and that’s very useful to breeders. I think for growers in general the important thing about genetics comes down to knowing what plant you have. Eventually we’ll understand the genetics well enough to be able to say to people, you’re buying such and such a plant. We know from the genetics of this plant that it’s going to work like this and it’s going to have these traits and here’s how you should grow it, but we’re a ways away from being there yet.

Matthew: Okay. This is really helpful if you arrive at a plant that you think is perfect that you just want to keep on reproducing over and over again. Whereas if you’re making clones from a mother plant sometimes they can over time that there’s kind of this clone fatigue where the vigor of the plant is reduced somewhat, and so you want to be able to recreate that from seed over and over again. This is where you can say look, it’s not my guess. That is the exact same thing you had before that you were happy with. This is a genetic exact match.

Mowgli: Right, though I should say that right now the only genetic exact matches that we have are clones. So in the normal world of agriculture you can buy seeds that are genetically identical or they’re essentially genetically identical. For cannabis, if you buy seeds, they’re all unique snowflakes, every one of them. They’re all different. No one has ever made batches of seeds that are all identical. That’s why people grow commercial crops from clones, because if you want a homogenous crop or anything, you have to grow them from clones. All this genetic information will help us in the future make absolutely stable seed lines, which will be a big change in the industry.

Matthew: How can you accelerate the growth of a plant to get more seeds?

Mowgli: There’s a lot of ways to do that. Many of those things have to do with environmental manipulations. Also how fast a plant grows and how many seeds it produces are a function of genetics. By doing targeted breeding for traits like that, you can enhance them. That’s just a long, iterative process where you go through many generations of selecting for plants that have improved traits, and that’s what will happen. We’re going to see people go through that process over the next few years and plants are going to improve really rapidly.

Matthew: Yeah, when you say they’re going to improve. What ways do you think they’re going to improve, the most likely ways they’re going to improve?

Mowgli: I mean so many honestly. People have a tendency to treat cannabis as a widget that you’re just supposed to make a lot of and sell. It’s a living organism, and it’s evolving. Humans know how to make plants evolve really rapidly. The truth is that the cannabis around now it seems great. It is great, but it’s not going to be around in five years. It’s not an optimized crop. It’s never been subjected to professional plant breeding. So, in five years we’re going to have plants with optimized cannabinoid and terpene ratios. We’re going to have plants to flower earlier. We’re going to have plants that are higher yielding, plants that are easier to harvest. All of the different traits of cannabis that we care about, and there’s many of them, because it’s such a Swiss Army knife of a plant. All of them are going to be optimized and combined, and we’re going to have plants that are pest resistant, which we just don’t have now in cannabis. So there’s going to be a huge change in how things work.

Matthew: Gosh, that will be incredible, just think about that.

Mowgli: Let me put it this way. Right now cannabis seems amazing, but we’re going to be smoking absolutely out of this world pot in five years that we could never have dreamed of.

Matthew: Great. Something like a Elon Musk artificial intelligence designed pot that’s from the future.

Mowgli: That’s right. We’re going to make the plant naturally, but we’re going to design the breeding program on the backend with Elon Musk wired up to an artificial intelligence machine. That’s right.

Matthew: Do you ever talk with cultivators or business owners and discover they might not be thinking about plant science correctly in particularly how it can help their business. Maybe they have some misinterpretations or some notions that are just not the proper lens to be looking at plant science.

Mowgli: I mean, I assume that’s a rhetorical question.

Matthew: I guess do you see trends in their answers that you can summarize?

Mowgli: Yeah I mean, this is an industry that has not been run on science. It’s been run on legend and lore and just the wacky accumulation of social knowledge on internet forums. It just hasn’t been based on science. So, all kinds of little factoids that aren’t true get enshrined into how people do things. So, that is changing rapidly. There are thousands of growers out there who are using pesticides who don’t even realize they’re using pesticides. They think they’re not using pesticides. They’re like this is a natural product. They just don’t know. There are people using pesticides who are talking about oh, you can apply this pesticide early on in the life cycle and then it will be gone. It just goes away. That’s not true in general, but rumors like that spread and they can often have really really dangerous consequences.

There are also lots of master growers who, even if they’re not thinking about the science right, they’re really tuned into their plants and they grow amazing plants. People are working from a really kind of superstitious and just rumor based approach to knowledge, and all of that is going to change soon.

Matthew: Now do you get any specific questions in regards to your tests over and over again where people are like hey—what do they want to know? How fast can I get this? What will it tell me? What other kind of questions do they have?

Mowgli: For the plant sex test at first people just thought you can’t identify the sex of a plant overnight. They just didn’t believe that you could do that. So, I think we went through a lot of time of just trying to prove to people well actually you can do it and here’s how you do it. That one was simple. The math was simple. It turns out that growers have never really done the math. They spend between $50-$80 per male from the time they plant it to the time that they call it. Just with light and water and nutrients and never mind space and plant counts. So, our test, we can get it down to below $10 and it just saves them a lot of money. So once that was demonstrated to people there were no more questions. We get orders for 5,000 and 10,000 seedlings at a time all the time now.

Matthew: Wow.

Mowgli: Yeah it’s just taken off. In fact we underestimated the market for the plant sex test. We did not realize how many people still grow from seed, which is great because clones spread diseases. They’ve given rise to the epidemic of pesticide use that we have now. Seeds spread diversity and they’re clean. We want the industry to go in that direction.

Matthew: That’s crazy. Are most of your customers in Oregon or California or where do they reside?

Mowgli: Most of them at the moment are in Oregon and California, as they should be. We have customers now in 26 states and 5 countries.

Matthew: Okay. So, when they go through, a seed seven days after germination, the seedling can be tested and smeared on this piece of paper and sent to you. Then once it’s sent to you, does it take a couple days and then once you receive it it’s a one business day turn around?

Mowgli: So, we say 48 hours from when we receive it, but we can often do 24. The plant genetic test, the genetic identity test, that is a much more complicated procedure. It’s a more expensive test. It takes a couple of weeks to turn around, and at the end you get a login to a place on our website called the Phylos Galaxy where you can see your plant in this three dimensional map with all the other plants that we have and you can see how it’s related to everything else in the population. That’s much more complicated and has a lot more science and data behind it. It’s way less simple than the plant sex test, but it also solves a huge problem in the industry, which is that no one has any idea what they’re smoking.

Matthew: How much do the tests cost, both tests?

Mowgli: The plant sex test is $15 for one. For bulk orders we can get it down well under $10. The genetic identity test, Phylos Genotype right now is $295 for one and we can get that one down for bulk orders too. Already there are dispensaries in Oregon that are sending letters to all their suppliers saying we’re not taking stuff anymore unless it’s been tested by Phylos, because they want to be able to promise to their customers that they’re getting what they’re being told they’re getting. Even if it’s a plant that is on its own in the galaxy and it’s hard to know what it really is and someone gave it a wacky name, we don’t have any other samples like it on the map. Then when you guarantee to something that they’re getting what you say they’re getting it might not be meaningful to them, but the important point is that they can always get it again. It’s a guarantee of consistency. In the past patients have struggled to find plants that work for them, and then when they find it they often can’t get them again. Now that’s over.

Matthew: Right. So it sounds like this is the doctors and the pharmaceutical industry said, one of the complaints about cannabis is it’s not repeatable. We can’t do math with this. We can’t decide one gram of this will produce this result because it’s not homogenized in terms of the output. And you’re saying even though it’s a botanical, it’s a plant, we’re getting closer to be able to do that exact thing that they’re complaining about and solving that problem.

Mowgli: It’s exactly that. If you think about all the reviews on a database like Leafly, you can click on a strain name, Sour Diesel and then there’s thousands of reviews of what it’s like. If you download all that data and you look through it, there’s no signal in the noise. The reviews are just all over the place. The reason is that those people are not all smoking Sour Diesel. They’re smoking tons of different things that got named Sour Diesel because there was a marketing advantage or a confusion. So, when we start to know okay all of these reviews or patient reports are associated with this genetically identified plant, all of a sudden people are going to be responding to the same medicine. Now you’re doing science and now you have a dataset that is meaningful.

Matthew: Okay. Is there going to be some names that are easier to come up with than some batch name or something. How do you do that? Do you say Sour Diesel Batch 134682 or something or how will that work?

Mowgli: It’s confusing. There’s a few different levels to that. I mean, if you look at the big Sour Diesel cluster on the Phylos Galaxy, there’s this huge cluster of Sour Diesel. There’s plants in there that have other names. We don’t need to make everybody change the names of their varieties to be correct, but we want people to know that that’s a plant in the Sour Diesel cluster. Maybe the grower had unique growing techniques and has made it a little different because of variation. Plants do vary from batch to batch. The mandatory chemical testing that plants have to get now captures that. What the genetic identity catches is all the other things that go into the identity of the plant, all the other hundreds of terpenes and cannabinoids, which are genetically specified. So even if one batch is a little bit higher in THC or a little bit lower in pinene, it’s always going to be basically the same, if it’s genetically identical. It’s going to be pretty close.

Matthew: Right, it’s just pretty much environmental factors perhaps that changed the outcome of the plant, if there’s minute differences.

Mowgli: So, thing about wine. The last thing you want is for all Sura to be the same. The whole point is it’s all different. You grow it in different ways, in different environments and it becomes different, but you want to know it’s Sura. You don’t want to walk in a wine store wanting Sura and then come out with some crappy Merlot that’s been mislabeled. When you get the Sura you want there to be interesting variation as well. So, I think people will start to think about it like wine. They’ll start to think about vintage and they’ll start to think about varietal, but they’ll also start to think about varietal and vintage and vintner and (22.50 unclear) and all of those things. So they’re all important.

Matthew: Let’s just do a hypothetical here. If you were tasked with being the breeder or master grower of a brand new cultivation facility and they wanted to make sure that we catalog and get our genetics right and everything. Just a lot of grows are just not even very organized. How would you go about kind of creating the ideal setup in terms of cataloging the genetics of your plants and over time kind of looking at things to make sure that you can go back to any point in time and make sure you have the proper genetic fit for what you’re trying to do?

Mowgli: Let’s assume you’re a grower and not a breeder and you’re just trying to organize the catalog that you’re bringing to market. We have a lot of grow operations now that have decided to genotype their entire catalogs. What you want is you want a diversity of offerings. One funny thing that we keep finding is that people often are running a couple of different varieties that actually turn out to be the same thing and for no reason. They got a whole other room running this other thing that they thought was different, but they both turn out to be the same. Someone made a mistake at some point and they’re just the same.

So, it lets people fix problems like that and it lets people kind of look and they can look on the map and they can say well I’m running these two or three varieties that are so similar, even if they’re not the same. I think I can safely get rid of two of those. I think it just lets people most importantly make a promise to their customers. Secondly I think it makes it easier to get organized around having the right diversity of offerings.

Matthew: We talked a little bit about where things will be in the future, but is there any other thoughts about where you think plant genetic sciences and testing will be in the next five years?

Mowgli: Yeah I mean, I think the things we talked about in the future are going to happen really really fast. I think that in the future people will always know what plant they have. I think genetic testing will be ubiquitous. I think data driven plant breeding will be ubiquitous. I mean we’re going to have an explosion of knowledge about the cannabis plant and the cannabis genome just in the next few years. I think the time that growers are going to be growing incredible stuff and we’re all going to be smoking pot that we never dreamed of. I don’t think that’s ten years out. I think that’s four years out.

Matthew: Where do you go to keep on top of all the developments in plant science and genetics? Is there any websites or is it universities? I mean, how do you keep on top of latest here?

Mowgli: In cannabis there’s no good place for that. In the plant science world we’re in the thick of the science. We’re reading journal articles. We’re talking with the scientists on our scientific advisory board. We’re going to conferences. We’re just keeping up with the cutting edge research that happens at universities. The scientific world hasn’t ever gotten very good at making what it does public or publically accessible. It’s out there in journal articles online and you have to know how to read that language, but that’s our job.

Matthew: Right. I like to ask a few personal development questions to help listeners get a sense of who you are on a personal level. With that is there a book that has had a big impact on your life or way of thinking? It doesn’t necessarily have to be within the realm of genetics. It could be anything.

Mowgli: I have a favorite book. It has nothing to do with any of this, but I will just tell you what it is. It’s a book called Gravity’s Rainbow by a guy named Thomas Pynchon, and I’ve read it 11 times now.

Matthew: Oh my gosh. Well give us a little brief of what it’s about.

Mowgli: You’re going to have to go and find out yourself.

Matthew: What a teaser that was. I’ll put a link in the show notes. Gravity’s Rainbow. That’s a good title anyway. So one more personal development question. Apart from your tests, is there a tool, web-based or physical, you use daily that you consider vital to your productivity?

Mowgli: Tool that I use, when I started this company I was a scientist. Now my job is to write emails, and Jess Kristoff, who is this incredible scientist who used to work with Craig Ventor, she runs the lab and it’s the tightest ship every. Alicia Holloway runs the data lab. She used to run (28.49 unclear) at UCSF. I can’t hold a candle to them. So my job is to write emails. So, yeah I have a tool I use daily that’s vital to my success. It is a very small bright pink computer. I think at this stage of the game, computers should be really small and pink. I have one now and I love it.

Matthew: Anything behind the color choice there, or were you just feeling particular flamingo-like that day?

Mowgli: It’s one of these new Mac Books. It weighs like a quarter of a pound. Of course I got the pink on. I mean it just seems so obvious.

Matthew: Okay. Mowgli, in closing how can listeners find out more about your tests and connect with you and send in samples and just learn more about you in general?

Mowgli: There’s a ton of stuff on our website. They should just dig around on our website. There’s a contact form there. The Galaxy is there for everyone to play with. It’s really fun, especially if you’ve been smoking pot, to zoom around in the 3-D world of the Galaxy.

Matthew: Okay, and can you give out your website one more time?

Mowgli: Yeah so actually I wish this wasn’t true, but our url sucks. I’m going to say it really slowly. It is If you Google Phylos or Phylos Galaxy, it will take you right there.

Matthew: Okay. Well, Mowgli thanks so much for joining us today and educating us about cannabis genetics, plant genetics and science. I really appreciate it. A lot of exciting stuff coming up, and I encourage everybody to reach out to Mowgli and Phylos Bioscience if you have test and want to know anything about your plants genome or the sex of your plants. It sounds like a very good operation, and I wish you all the best Mowgli, good luck.

Mowgli: Yeah, thank you. Thanks a ton.

Crafting Cannabis Brewed Beers & Distilled Spirits with Dooma Wendschuh

Dooma Wendschuh Province Brands

Listen in as Dooma Wendschuh co-founder of discusses how he and his team are creating cannabis brewed beer and cannabis distilled spirits. Dooma transitioned from the US Cannabis Market to the Canadian Cannabis Market because he saw more opportunity in Canada’s federally legal marketplace.

Interesting factoids about Dooma

He was the co-founder of the software gaming company that made the mega hit game Assasin’s Creed that has grossed over 5 billion dollars in sales

– His favorite book is The Hard Thing about Hard Things
– His favorite business tools are Slack and SmartSheet

Find Dooma at
and on twitter at @doomadooma

Key Takeaways:
[4:23] – Dooma’s background
[11:02] – Dooma talks about the Assassins Creed game
[15:28] – Dooma talks about Ebbu and his transition to Province
[21:21] – Dooma talks about Province Brands
[32:54] – How do you feel the effects of a marijuana beverage faster
[34:02] – Dooma talks about dosage
[42:02] – Dooma talks about other ingredients in his drinks
[43:42] – Bringing Province drinks to market in Canada
[52:58] – Dooma talks about the fundraising process
[56:56] – Dooma answers some personal development questions
[1:04:13] – Dooma’s contact information

What are the five disruptive trends shaping the cannabis industry?
Find out with your report at

Read Full Transcript

Today we’re going to talk with an entrepreneur, Dooma Wendschuh, that has transitioned from the US cannabis market to the Canadian cannabis market and is making the world’s first beer and spirits brewed and distilled from cannabis. Dooma, welcome to CannaInsider.

Dooma: Thanks Matt. I got to say it is amazing to be back. To this day, I have people coming up to me and asking about the last CannaInsider podcast I did with you. It is just amazing what a phenomenal following you’ve developed and how many people are listening, and not just the number but the quality of listeners. It’s not that I’m surprised. You are one of a kind and one of the hardest working people in the industry. So, thanks again for having me. It is an honor, and I’m really thrilled to be back.

Matthew: Thank you Dooma. Flattery will get you everywhere. I appreciate that. Well, it has been a while. I think it was 2014 or 2015 since you were last on, but before we jump in to everything you have going on in your life, give us a sense of geography and tell us where you are in the world right now.

Dooma: Absolutely. I am standing in what will be the first country in the world to legalize recreational cannabis which is an amazing feeling. Do you know where that is Matt?

Matthew: Canada.

Dooma: That’s right, and a lot of people think it’s Uruguay, but the difference is in Uruguay they legalized cannabis for recreational purposes, but you have to be a citizen. Canada’s legalization will be for anyone who is of age, which is a huge deal. That opens it up to tourism and to a whole lot of different uses that you won’t see in Uruguay. It’s really changed everything. You have been following I think a lot more than a lot of the other US focused podcast and the media outlets. I know you’ve had Mark Lustig on your podcast and John Fowler of Supreme, and Brockstein who covers the cannabis industry better than almost anyone in Canada, although he’s from Texas. It’s been amazing to be here in Canada seeing an unparalleled growth in the industry. I mean Canada has a population of 36 million people. It’s one of the largest legal exporters of medical cannabis in the world, and I don’t know if you say, but there was this study that Deloit recently did that predicted that the size of the legal cannabis market in Canada in just a few years could top $22.6 billion.

If you’re in the USA and you have a 50,000 square foot indoor greenhouse grow, that’s pretty big. In Canada there are companies that have millions of square feet of cannabis grow indoors. There are companies that have valuations literally in the billions of dollars and many that have valuations in the hundreds of millions of dollars. So, it is a truly unique place to be in the cannabis industry and a world leader. That’s where I’m located. It’s the only place in the world I’d be right now to be working in the industry and doing what I’m doing.

Matthew: Yeah, there’s a lot of exciting things going on in Canada right now. I really like the aspect that you don’t have to live with one foot still in the closet like you do in the US. That’s really a frustrating thing. I think the industry in the US could really leap forward if we had a policy closer to Canada’s, I think, with the exception of dispensaries are the only thing I think Canada’s missing in terms of how it could be better. That can be changed.

Dooma: Right, and we do have dispensaries here but they’re illegal, which is crazy. In America you get your illegal drugs from the drug dealer that meets you in the parking lot of the Rite Aid. Whereas in Canada you just walk into an illegal store and buy whatever you want from a thing that looks a lot like a US dispensary, but they are illegal, they’re raided all the time. They’re shut down all the time. It’s basically a criminal activity here in Canada. Whereas in the United States it’s at least state legal when people operate dispensaries.

Matthew: Give us a little bit about your background. I know you were on back in 2014 or 15, I can’t remember when that was, and there’s a lot of new listeners since then and they want to get a sense of who you are, what industry you came from, what were you doing before this and all those juicy details.

Dooma: I grew up in Miami, Florida, so I am American. Received my undergraduate degree from Princeton University. Did my graduate school at the University of Southern California. As most people do when getting a graduate degree from USC, I went into the entertainment industry. Started a company to make motion pictures. We were not very good at that. We sold eight movies to the studios. We only managed to get one of them made. I think it was just kind my age. I was 22 years old and I didn’t know how to get these celebrities to sign on to be in our movies. That’s what it took. I wasn’t getting invited to those parties. When I did meet a celebrity, which was very rare, I remember one time I was at a party at the urinal and Brad Pitt came and urinated right next to me at the urinal, and I was like, this is my chance.

I needed to have something really smart to say, but I didn’t think of anything and he just walked away and that was it. We didn’t really succeed in that industry, but we pivoted the company into the video game industry where we had a lot of success. We helped create some of the biggest video game franchises out there. My company is called Sekret Agent Productions, and the video game franchise that the company is best known for is Assassins Creed, which has now done about $6 billion in worldwide sales. It was a lot of fun. It was crazy. We worked on the first eight of those games. We also did Batman Arkham Origins, Army of Two and a bunch of stuff that didn’t make any money. Actually we did three games in the Prince of Persia series, so those made money as well.

It was a lot of fun. You become very close with the team when you’re doing these games. We were pulling 18 hour days, month after month and crunching and they become like a family. I really don’t think there was anything that could have pulled me out of the video game industry except for what eventually did, which was November of 2012, and I was living in Canada because we had an office in Montreal, but then another office in LA and I had more or less moved up to Montreal at that point. I was over at a friend’s house, and we were watching the US elections. Oh yeah, Obama got elected, but you know what else happened, marijuana was legalized for recreational purposes in Colorado and Washington. When I saw this I was like, whoa. Who knew this was happening. It was crazy to me.

I mean, I had know about medical marijuana, sure, but there’s medical cocaine and no one thinks cocaine is going to get legalized for recreational purposes any time soon. It just seemed so far off to me that this had actually happened. It kind of got me thinking, and when I thought back at my life, the moments that really mattered me weren’t moments where I’m sitting on a couch with a game controller in my hand. That was fun, but the moments that mattered to me all involved some kind of a psychoactive. I know I say that, I sound like a drug addict, but I’m the furthest thing from that. Think about it. Those video games, we never would have sold them if we didn’t have drinks with the publishers to get to know the publisher, to develop the rapport, you learn to trust people after you’ve had a couple late nights with them in a business setting.

We never would have made those games if it wasn’t for tons of caffeine fueling the workforce. Caffeine makes you a super human and people forget that’s a psychoactive as well. In college all my best friends are folks I met and sort of intensified those friendships often under the influence of alcohol and certainly the most important business deal I ever closed, which was asking the woman I love to marry me, would not have been possible without a good amount of Champaign. I believe that psychoactives provide a lot of benefit to our world. They break down boundaries. They do so many great things for people. I also believe that they have a lot of problems. With the legalization of cannabis, I saw an opportunity to perhaps bring about a better class of psychoactive. I didn’t know what it was, and we’ll talk about Province and sort of how my thinking has evolved since then, but at the time I was like, there’s something here. Because I knew, even back then in 2012, I knew what a lot of people still don’t know, which is that marijuana is not a thing. It’s not a single active ingredient psychoactive. It’s very different from the other legal psychoactives in our world.

If you look at the three legal psychoactives for social and recreational purposes, alcohol, coffee, tobacco. Each one of them has a single active ingredient. For alcohol it’s ethanol, for coffee it’s caffeine, for tobacco it’s nicotine, but cannabis has all of these different compounds. It’s basically a polypharmaceutical. There’s 144 phytocannabinoids that have been identified to date. There’s hundreds of terpenes and these individually in a different combination can create varying psychoactive effects. So, I wanted to see what that could be and how those things could create a better class of psychoactives. I ended up selling my shares in the game company in 2013, and using some of those funds to start my very first cannabis company, which was in Colorado. That’s kind of how I got into the space.

Matthew: Gosh, I just want to rewind for a second because Assassins Creed is like a household name at this point. I know they’re making that into a major motion picture I think.

Dooma: They did make it into a motion picture. If anyone out there saw it, I’m sorry.

Matthew: It was bad.

Dooma: It was so bad. It was so bad and it didn’t make any money. It’s hard. There haven’t been a lot of successes. The only one is Resident Evil. That’s the only success that’s ever been a successful translation of a video game into a motion picture. They’re different media and it is very hard to make that jump. I am really disappointed in the Assassins Creed movie but I wouldn’t say that I’m surprised.

Matthew: What captured the imagination of the public with that game? Do you think it was the narrative and production value or the quest? What is it that you think really resonated?

Dooma: Well, at the end of the day I think it’s a lot of things that my cofounder of that company, and I probably can’t take credit for, and I think the most important thing about making any kind of a business, but in particular a video game is it is a team effort. It is something you really rely on every person on that team and they all have to be working at top speed. I think the number one thing that made that franchise successful is not any individual element, whether it’s the story or the game play, but the sum of all of them. I believe, as an entrepreneur and as a business leader, that execution always trumps innovation, and Assassins Creed had a lot of innovation. Certainly the crowd system was way ahead of its time. The open world, the different aspects of the open world were very innovative, but the execution, it all hit together very well.

I think the execution contributed in a major way to its success, but I’ll tell you a little story about one element that I can take and that we can take no credit for that made it a success. The game was funded and published by UBSoft and they put someone on the team whose job it is is to make sure that this game is going to be marketable. This woman would go to all the meetings and she would give her feedback and input, let’s put it that way. At that time, what we had pitched, what UBSoft was developing and what we were making was a game that set in the Third Crusade. It was entirely a period piece. Keep in mind this wasn’t that long after 9/11 and you were basically playing an Arab, a Muslim guy and the bad guys are Christians. There’s a little bit of unease around that.

She kept saying, this woman kept saying we can’t sell this. No one is going to buy this game. Nobody wants to play a game where it’s a period piece and you play a Muslim and the bad guys are Christians. This is going to be a disaster at the Box Office. Can’t you put in some aliens, put in some science fiction. Let’s make it edgier so that we can have a hook and sell it. My cofounder, Corey and I, we fought this tooth and nail because keep in mind, we had just done three games in the Prince of Persia series. Prince of Persia is all about time travel. We were definitely not doing another time travel game because every time you go back into the past you have to change the future, which is so annoying. Then one of the guys on the team had read something. I think it was a short story that talked about genetic memory, and we were like okay, that could work.

That’s not time travel. You don’t have to change the future. You’re just going back and learning from the past and it was amazing because that little tweak is what made it so that every game in the Assassins Creed franchise did not have to take place in the Third Crusade, and that little tweak is what turned this from a single game that probably would have done pretty well, but not really had a following, into a worldwide know franchise that generated about $6 billion.

Matthew: Wow, maybe you could just summarize quickly what genetic memory means for people who don’t understand.

Dooma: Yeah, for anyone who hasn’t played the game, genetic memory is this theory that by analyzing someone’s genes, you can understand specific events that happened in their heritage before they were who they were. What we did is we imagined that in the distant future they would have a technology that could read your genetic code and would allow someone to effectively replay or relive moments from their own ancestry. So each Assassins Creed game takes place in a different time period and a different location because it’s all along the lineage, the ancestry of the main character, of the people who were his great grandparents, great-great grandparents, great-great-great grandparents and all the adventures that they had you’re reliving when you play those games.

Matthew: Speaking of going back through history, let’s talk about Ebbu and them Province. What was Ebbu, that’s what your endeavor was before Province, what you’re doing there and your transition to Province.

Dooma: That was a very good transition that you made by the way. I like that. Ebbu was the first company that I founded in the cannabis industry, and you have to believe me when I tell you that it was the hardest thing that I’ve done in my life, and I’ve done a lot of hard things. We started this in Colorado. We set out to raise $10 million. Keep in mind, we were doing this in the United States where cannabis is federally illegal, but also in Colorado where at the time, they had a residency requirement that meant that you could not own equity in a company unless you were a two year resident of the state of Colorado. That made fundraising a tremendous challenge, almost impossible.

On top of that, we had to solve one of the most challenging problems in the cannabis in the cannabis industry which was to try to make products, and eventually we succeeded at this, but to try to make products that when consumed would be both reliable and predictable. Cannabis is definitely unreliable. It’s unpredictable. You never know what you’re going to get. At Ebbu we made vapor pens and the company still makes vapor pens that every time you tried it you would have that same sensation guaranteed. The long term goal was also to make products that would predictably give everyone who tried them the same sensation. If you and all your friends tried it and it was called Energy, you would all have an energetic sensation when consuming cannabis. To do this we had to hire world class scientists, and it was hard.

I had a cofounder that wasn’t able to take the time off, take the risk to launch a startup, at least in the beginning. He was working a full time job, while I worked Ebbu full time, put my heart and soul into it. I barely slept for two years and whenever I did it was in airports. I was traveling the world raising capital and recruiting the scientists to join the team, and in the end my friends and family and people I’ve known since high school in some cases or college or in the case of my family, my entire life, came through and made investments despite incredible risk. We raised $10 million. We hired a world class team, including Dr. Linda Klumpers who is a world renowned cannabinoid researcher who now has her own startup that’s really exciting. It might be someone you want to talk to in a future episode.

More importantly, the company succeeded in creating phenomenal products. The Ebbu Genesis that’s out now is one of the best vapor pens on the market. It nearly killed me, but I am really proud of what we accomplished, and I’m proud of all of Ebbu’s success, although it did not end well for me personally. The crazy thing is I ran a video game company for 13 years. Was involved in some of the world’s biggest entertainment franchises. I never once got sued and I never once had to sue anyone, and I used to be so proud of that. I thought I was litigation proof, but I guess you can’t hide from it forever and if you’re an entrepreneur, as I assume many of those listening to your podcast are, then you haven’t been through it, it’s going to catch up to you. I never wanted to do anything to hurt Ebbu, as I mentioned, the investors are my friends and family, but I was put in a situation where I had no choice but to file an arbitration lawsuit, an arbitration against my cofounder and against the company. This has been what I’ve been dealing with the past year and a half.

The costs are approaching now half a million dollars of my own money and it keeps going. It’s incredibly expensive to be in litigation. It’s forced a company, which my wife and I own together, into bankruptcy. It’s been really hard, and the money is not the worst part. The worst part is just knowing that you’re basically, at least in my case, filing suit against something I help create. My friends and family who invested in the company, to be pitted against them is terrible. Most of them understand, obviously. I think whether I win or lose the major battle I’ve sort of already lost and a reason for the lawsuit is that there was information in large part not true that was leaked out to media sources and has done a lot of damage to my reputation and made it very difficult to start the second company, Province. It’s been challenge. It doesn’t matter in the real world whether you win or lose in a court of law. It matters a lot whether you win in the court of public opinion and I think I may have already lost in that court and that’s been the hardest to deal with.

So it’s been really rough, but it’s also a great learning experience. I was very fortunate for 13 years to run a successful video game company and to be able to exit that. My cofounder, that’s still one of my best friends and one of the smartest and most capable people I’ve ever met and to be able to have good relationships with him and it’s a good learning experience to see it from the other side and to realize things don’t always work out that way. When you’ve been through something like what I’ve been through you can certainly empathize with a lot of others who’ve had experiences like that. So anyway, thanks for letting me vent.

Matthew: I appreciate that Dooma. I appreciate you giving the details and some context there. That really helps people understand what happened, because we hear a little bit here and there, but it’s great to get some more straight from the horse’s mouth, and we wish you the best on that. I mean, that sounds very taxing on you personally, you and your wife. I hope that there’s a revolution soon. Let’s move on to the next chapter. Let’s talk about Province Brands. Tell us about that.

Dooma: Province is pretty unique. There’s really not a lot like it out there. We are one of the first products companies in Canada. What we’re making is something truly revolutionary. Imagine a world where there were no psychoactives. Just no one ever figured it out. No tobacco, no alcohol, no coffee, no anti-depressants, no stimulants, no anti-psychotics, none of that stuff. That world would probably be a boring world, and in a lot of ways it would be worse than the world we live in. Imagine that a flying saucer came and the aliens showed up and they’re like, hey humans, check all this stuff out and they gave us everything. Crystal meth, heroine, anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, coffee, all of these and they flew back into space.

Then it was up to the governments of the world to decide what are we going to do with all of this stuff that the aliens left behind. What will they decide. I’m pretty sure that there’s no way in hell that they would make marijuana illegal. They would do a cost benefit analysis because obviously a lot of these things have benefits. A lot of psychoactives are really important for treating ailments. Anti-depressants save people’s lives, prevents them from committing suicide. That’s a perfect example of a psychoactive that has a very strong social and individual benefit. I think they’d do a cost benefit analysis. I think they’d find that things like marijuana should be legal. I’m also pretty certain that when it came to alcohol it probably wouldn’t pass the test. I think it’s very unlikely that alcohol would not be legal.

Why is it that alcohol is a $1.2 trillion industry? It’s so huge. It brings people together. It enriches our lives in so many ways. It’s got this pass. A pass like a get out of jail free pass because it has been around for so long. You could think of alcohol as sort of being grandfathered in. Up until now there really hasn’t been anything which could be legal, which could be a substitutional product. Again, to go back to these hypothetical scenarios, imagine a world where that wasn’t the case, where alcohol wasn’t grandfathered in and maybe there was something different. Imagine what the healthcare costs would be like in that world. When you go to the hospital now you’re paying your bill, but you’re also paying for alcohol because you’re paying for the person who drank too much and crashed his car or the person he crashed it into. You’re paying for the person who is possibly gotten cancer. Alcohol causes eight types of cancer and it’s not if, it’s a when. If you drink alcohol and you live long enough, it will give you cancer.

Heart disease, liver failure, depression, dementia, it contributes to so many ailments and has such a burden on our society. I think a lot of people just look at this and say, that’s the way it is. Me, I’m an entrepreneur, and I think where others may just see a cold beer, I saw an opportunity to change the world. I knew right away that it wasn’t going to be with smoked marijuana, because let’s face it, nobody likes to step outside to smoke. I don’t think that product is going to go away, but it’s not going to be the thing that replaces alcohol. Besides, smoking marijuana isn’t all that good for you anyways. The rolling paper, if you’re making a joint, could be carcinogenic. It contributes to bronchitis and myocardium infractions, all these different things, pneumonia. It’s unpredictable. It’s unreliable. It’s very confusing with all of these different strains of cannabis that you have to learn about, what all these different names mean.

There’s also the experiential aspect. Marijuana, it feels great. I love it, but it doesn’t have that sort of feeling quality that you get with alcohol, the mainstream appeal. Let’s take another example. Alcohol is a $1.2 trillion industry. What about the other legal beverage psychoactive, which is coffee or caffeine. Both are consumed primarily by adults. Both are consumed socially in a bar, in the case of alcohol or in a café in the case of coffee. Why is it that alcohol is a $1.2 trillion dollars whereas coffee does about $200 billion a year. Why is it that people are willing to pay six times more for alcohol than coffee. Matt, what do you think?

Matthew: I think the perceived value from a craft beer or a high end spirit is something people are willing to pay up for if it delivers on what they think it will. What do you think?

Dooma: Yeah that’s good. What do you mean it delivers on what they think it will? What are they looking for?

Matthew: It’s more of a euphoric sensation versus caffeine which is like let’s crack the whip, like a focusing drug.

Dooma: Yeah. It comes down to different sensations. I mean, alcohol has a sensation such that it’s totally normal to go to a bar and have three drinks, but if you go to a café and have three coffees in a row, you’re kind of weird. People don’t really do that. I think that that’s also one of the issues that cannabis has to face. At Province we do make beverages, but we’ll talk about that in a little bit. We’re not the first, but we have a very different approach. I think part of our approach is solving a lot of the problems that the other cannabis beverages have. Not the least of which is the onset time. You drink any marijuana beverage it’s going to take an hour, an hour and a half to hit you. That’s a long time. It’s like you go to your business drinks you don’t feel anything until you’re driving home. Because of the way marijuana is metabolized when it’s drank, it goes through your liver. It creates a metabolite called 11 hydroxy THC, which has different properties from cannabis when it’s smoked. As a result, a single serving of marijuana when consumed as a beverage could keep you intoxicated for six hours or more, which doesn’t mesh with how we like to drink. At some point you have to drive home. You don’t want to be intoxicated for that long.

We like to self-titrate. We like to go to the bar and get another drink every so often, because that’s social, otherwise you would have to talk to the girl you’re on the date with. Also another issue is the calories. Most of these cannabis beverages are basically soda pops and juices to which they’ve added marijuana oil. When you do that you have to cover up the taste of the marijuana oil, and to do that you end up adding a lot of sugar. So it’s not uncommon for a single cannabis beverage to have three or four hundred calories, which is kind of insane.

At Province what we’re doing is basically coming up with solutions to these problems. We make beverages. We basically have a technology that allows us to brew and distill cannabis to make beverages that are alcohol free for the most part and that are designed to intoxicate using marijuana or its cannabinoids and which are designed to take on the $1.2 trillion alcohol industry. I know that’s a really bold thing to say, but think about it for a minute. Alcohol or adult beverages in general, this is an industry which really hasn’t seen a lot of innovation in the past several centuries. If you walked into a bar in the year 1800, what you’d get then is pretty much what you get now.

At Province we’ve developed a patent pending process to actually brew a beer from cannabis. That’s pretty interesting. Why does that matter? Well, let’s take an example from Japan. In Japan Kirin figured out how to make a beer from soybeans. They put it on the market and you know what, people liked it. When others wanted to make their own soybean beer to compete they found that Kirin had surrounded it with this sweet of pence, and as a result there are still to this day companies who pay a licensing fee to Kirin in order to make and sell their own soybean beers to compete. In the same way, Province intents to own this entire category of beer brewed from cannabis, whether it’s help or marijuana, either type of cannabis, whether it’s alcohol free like almost all of our products, in which case it intoxicates you using marijuana or cannabinoids from the marijuana plant, or whether it’s an old fashioned beer that does contain alcohol. We will make just one of those for a lot of reasons, but the main reason being to gain market acceptance.

If you’re not used to drinking cannabis, you’re going to a bar every day, this is a way you can drink cannabis. It’s made from hemp. It has no marijuana in it. The only psychoactive element is the alcohol, but you can get used to the flavor. You can get used to drinking a beer brewed from cannabis and then maybe when you walk into the dispensary and you see a bunch of stuff you’ve never heard of, but there’s one bottle on the shelf that looks familiar and there’s a brand that you might have tried once before at your local bar, that’s probably the brand you’re going to pick. That’s why we make the one product that has alcohol in it. Because we brew from cannabis, our products are naturally low calorie. We clock in at about 60 calories for one of our beers, 80 calories for another and we are developing a gin which has 10 calories per 1 ½ ounce serving. They are low sugar, low carb. They’re almost entirely, almost all of our products are gluten free. They’re (32.06 unclear) too, actually. From a high level that’s sort of what we’re doing and what we’re developing at Province. So, our product is designed to solve a lot of the problems that the alcohol industry causes and also a lot of the problems that other marijuana beverages face.

Matthew: How do you arrive at the come on of the experience? You were saying the problem before is that if you were to take a cannabis infused beverage, a traditional cannabis infused beverage, it might be an hour and a half before the come on starts. How do you change that around so it’s more similar to alcohol in that the experience is faster?

Dooma: There’s a lot of technologies that people are using to do stuff like this. The particular technology we use is an excipients that we add into the product. It’s a natural excipients. It is something that could be grown organically. It basically changes the way your body processes the cannabis so you process most of it before it gets into your liver. As a result, you start feeling that sensation as quickly as you would start feeling alcohol. It does grow in intensity in a slightly different way than alcohol does, but it’s going to peak and hit you with a dose response curve very similar to that of alcohol.

Matthew: Okay, interesting. In terms of dosage, considering people metabolize cannabis at different rates, some are fast metabolizers, slow metabolizers, but at least that’s consistence. If you’re a fast metabolizer, you’re pretty much always going to be a fast metabolizer, but what are you thinking in terms of dosaging to arrive at what people want their experience to be?

Dooma: I love this question. I’m going to go on my little soapbox for a moment, but I think we’re thinking of dosage all wrong in the cannabis industry. With alcohol it’s so simple. You pick up a beer and it says 6 percent ABV, which stands for alcohol by volume. You pick up a spirit and it’s 80 proof, which for some reason is twice as much alcohol it has in it, which is a little confusing, but most people who drink know what that means. That makes sense when it comes to alcohol because alcohol is a single active ingredient psychoactive. The only thing that is going to intoxicate you in that alcohol is the ethanol. With cannabis it doesn’t work like that.

With cannabis you have 144 different phytocannabinoids. You have all these terpenes and both the intensity and the type of effect you get from cannabis is dependent on a multitude of different compounds. Most states and most countries where medical marijuana is legal have gravitated towards an approach where they measure the dosage based on the percentage of just one of those compounds, the tetrahydracannabinol. That’s not a problem per se, but it’s not a very accurate measure of how strong the product is. If I had, let’s say, two vials and both of them contained 10 milligrams of THC and nothing else. They were completely empty other than that. One of the vials I added (35.43 unclear) and I gave both of them to a consumer . The response from the one to which I added a little bit of cannabichromene would be different and it would be more intense and more intoxicating than to the one which only had the THC.

That’s my message is that you shouldn’t really think of dosage in terms of THC because it’s not the only thing that’s affecting the way that you feel. To go back to our products, our goal is to refocus the industry when it comes to thinking about dosage in a very fundamental way. We dose all of our products such that one beer or one shot of our gin is intended to intoxicate you, if you’ve consumed cannabis, and that’s a very important if, about the same amount as one alcohol beer or one shot of gin would intoxicate you if you’ve consumed alcohol before. There is some aspect there of habituation and certainly just as you can become habituated to alcohol—I remember the first time I drank booze I was 11 or something and I had one beer and my parents gave it to me and drank it and I was retarded. I was out of my mind from one beer. Nowadays, one beer, I don’t even feel it.

The same is true for cannabis. If you’ve never consumed cannabis before and you take one of our beers, you’re going to get pretty rocked, but if you’re a normal consumer you probably don’t even feel that first one, but the second one does a pretty good job and we want to make it so you drink the whole six pack. You go back for multiple drinks at the bar, if this product could ever be sold at bars, because we want to encourage social consumption and responsible consumption. If you just take one and you’re rocked all night, that isn’t either of those in my mind.

Just to go back to the dosing thing one more time, I think the way we like to think about it is the dosage is really important, but it’s not the most important part. If you look at alcohol as an example, if what we cared about was how strong was the drink, then the most expensive alcohol in the world would be Everclear and it’s not. Everclear is one of the cheapest, even though it contains the most intoxicating, it contains the most ethanol, it’s one of the cheapest alcohols you can get. What’s expensive? It’s stuff that contains very little intoxicant. Stuff like Opus 1, fine wines and champagnes are really expensive. We’re willing to pay a lot more, even though they contain very little of the intoxicant. Scotches that are 40 percent alcohol by volume, we’re willing to pay a lot of money for a fine scotch. The fact that if it had a little more alcohol in it that wouldn’t necessarily make us want to pay more.

In cannabis we need to get away from this mentality that something that contains more THC or more psychoactive compounds is somehow better than something that contains less. It’s about the full picture. It’s about the terpenes. It’s about the experience. It’s about the flavor. It’s about so much more than the strength. I think this mentality comes out of this drug dealer mentality. If I was a drug dealer back when cannabis was illegal and I wanted to maximize my profits, I would want to get as much, as strongest weed I could put in my backpack and smuggle from California to wherever I was going to go sell it. For me, I was valuing strength. I wanted to have the most active ingredient and the smallest possible physical space. That would make me the most money, also limit the chance that I’m going to get caught because I could carry another backpack. That mentality needs to shift as we move away from an illegal system to a legal system.

I sort of wonder, I wasn’t around then, but I bet in 1934 when alcohol prohibition ended I bet there was this similar thing. Back in the thirties during prohibition, everyone was making moonshine, which is pretty strong. It was the same idea. You wanted the strongest booze you could pile in the back of your car and smuggle across state lines or wherever and that is what you valued. Over time we evolved to a taste for the finer things in life and to appreciate the other aspects. So we really focus on making products that express quality across the board as opposed to just being the strongest thing.

Matthew: It makes a lot of sense. I mean, it’s really about how the customer frames the whole situation in their mind. What’s my expectation? How does this drink deliver in terms of my expectation? Then the consistency like how often can I repeat this over and over again where I get predictable results. That is a big part of puzzle. I am definitely guilty of not thinking about it, but if you can crack that I could see where you’d definitely make a dent in the alcohol market share. I did hear a professor once at a university talk about the same idea that you were talking about is that when there’s a drug that’s illegal, was formally legal and then it’s illegal, it becomes much more concentrated and potent to maximize taking it across state lines or wherever it has to be transported. You said you need to look no further than a college football game where beer is legal in the parking lot, but oftentimes there’s no booze in the stadium. So instead of smuggling beer into the stadium, people smuggle in—

Dooma: A flask.

Matthew: Yeah, a flask of alcohol. I was like wow that’s pretty similar to what you’re talking about and definitely you can see a lot of proof of that idea around.

Dooma: Yeah I love that. The flask is actually a really good metaphor that I never thought of before. I’m going to use that.

Matthew: What other interesting ingredients are in your drinks Dooma?

Dooma: I think what’s more interesting is what ingredients are not in our drinks. We have a patent pending process for actually brewing a beer from cannabis. That means we brew the beer actually from the cannabis, not from barley, and when you don’t use barley you don’t have any gluten. So if you have celiac disease or gluten free, most of our beers won’t bother you at all. Also we don’t add sugar or other sweeteners or flavorings. Our beers are lower calorie and as a result should be healthier for you than most other marijuana beverages. Our products are very simple. They’re craft beer is designed from quality ingredients and very few ingredients.

The only ingredients in our beers are cannabis, obviously, water, because you have to have water, brewer’s yeast and a little bit of hops because you need hops to make it a beer. There are some trace amounts of excipients that help with the dose response curve. Those are all natural and organic as well, and that is it.

Matthew: So again, the excipients are something that kind of makes a more predictable delivery, accelerated delivery response.

Dooma: That’s right. We use excipients for modifying the dose response curve to make it more similar to alcohol.

Matthew: Okay. What’s the next steps here in Canada that you’re going to be doing to bring Province drinks to markets?

Dooma: Since founding the company we have been working really hard to figure out how to do this. It’s not an easy thing. When you think about brewing beer you typically think about starting with grains because they have carbohydrates. Those carbohydrates can ferment into sugars and the sugars can then ferment into alcohol in the brewing process. It took a lot of work to be able to brew something from a starting material that does not contain carbohydrates. This is a real challenge. Then once you figured that out, making it taste amazing was even harder. I’m happy to say that we have had a really positive response in the past few tastings that we’ve organized to our product. That says to me that the next steps are probably a little more refining on the flavoring and then putting this into the market.

I’ll just tell you a little story to give you an idea of what we’ve experienced on the tasting perspective. We work with a brewer who is based in Colorado. Went down to his brewery and he had prepared a batch of the product for us, and went and picked it up and I was walking out the door, put it in the truck. He said, hey can two of my bartenders try this. I was like, yeah I mean, why didn’t you give it to them before. Didn’t you try it? He’s like, no I never tried it. I didn’t know how much you had and I didn’t want to waste it. Alright let’s do this. We poured four glasses and cheers and take a drink. This was made from hemp and not from marijuana and it had alcohol in it, as I mentioned. We do one product that’s made from hemp instead of marijuana that has about a 6 ½ percent ABV, and that’s an introduction to our product for people who enjoy alcohol.

At any rate, we did cheers. We had a drink and I’m holding it in my mouth and I just don’t know what to say because I’m honest with you. Prior to this, the past five batches we had done did not taste very good, and in fact they tasted a lot like rotten broccoli. I was sort of expecting a little bit more of the same. Actually it wasn’t that bad, but I wasn’t really sure because these guys are the real beer connoisseurs, and the female bartender finishes her drink and she says, when can we get a keg of that and the male bartender says yeah I would pay for that. That’s great. What is it. I was like, oh my god thank you. It was amazing. This bar is attached to a brew house and this brew house is known for brewing these really crazy experimental beers, and there’s four customers sitting right there. Hey, we want to try, because these guys go to this bar to try the new hot beer. They want to know what it is.

I was like, sure. We poured them some beers. Two guys across the bar want to try too. Gave out two beers to those guys and everyone drinks. They finish their glass and the brewer can’t hold it in anymore. He says alright guys, what do you think you were drinking. Customer is like, a pilsner. He’s like, yeah it’s a pilsner, but let me give you a hint. This beer is made from a starting material that you’ve never had in a beer before. One of the customers is like what is it millet, which is a grain, millet. I can’t hold it in anymore so I’m like guys, what you just drank was the first beer in the world ever brewed from cannabis. Then they freak out. The guy’s like what! Is this going to get me high? Then the other guy is like wait, I have to take a drug test for work. Then I have to say, listen. This is made from hemp, not marijuana. It will not impact your drug test and it will not get you high. The only intoxicant in this is the alcohol and they loved it.

I felt like I had had a baby, but it was like a beer baby. It was so weird. This weird moment of pride and excitement. We’ve made a lot of progress. After that we did a bunch of tastings in Toronto. Got really favorable response from those. We need to tweak a few things to the flavor profile, but we’re pretty close. The next steps immediately for the company are firstly to put an alcohol product on the market here in Canada, which is not as easy as it seems. In the US you can brew and just put it on a shelf somewhere. In Canada you have to submit for approval, which we’re certain we’ll get, but it could take about three months. We’ll be pretty close to submitting that.

Similarly to figure out how to get our cannabis, marijuana version for sale in a place where it’s legal to do that. Marijuana beverages and edibles have not been legalized yet in Canada. So, as of right now the product would not be legal for sale. The marijuana version of the product would not be legal for sale in Canada, although we could manufacture it here and ship it to various countries in Europe where it would be legal, and we’re just waiting for recreational legalization to hit and following that, beverages to be legalized so that we can sell our products here in Canada. In the meantime we’re building the world’s first cannabis brewery. Nothing like this has been built before. It is groundbreaking. An offer was just put in on a space that will allow us to build 100,000 square foot brewery, which is truly game changing. We’re very excited with that as well. Those are probably the next steps for us right now in the short term.

Matthew: You mentioned your first couple iterations tasted like broccoli or something undesirable you wouldn’t want to drink. Do you have someone on the team? Can you tell us a little about your cofounders or team members that maybe have specializations in different areas that help you bring the product to market in a way that you think will make it successful?

Dooma: Yeah, we have a world class team, although you do not have to be any kind of an expert to know that our early iterations tasted terrible and they were really bad. One of my cofounders started a gin brand and did pretty well, and he sold that company. Following that, he created a distillery and launched a vodka brand that is a household name vodka and became a worldwide brand, worldwide bestselling brand and then sold that to one of the largest alcohol companies in the world in an absolutely tremendous exit for himself. He’s full time with me in this venture. Has tremendous experience in the alcohol industry.

Also my brother-in-law, who is an advisor to our company, created the bestselling ultra premium vodka in Canada and got that through the distribution system here in Canada with the (50.42 unclear) Alcohol Monopolies, and got that into every providence and territory in the country. We have a few folks with a lot of alcohol experience. Then we have folks with a lot of cannabis experience. One of my cofounders has won now 22 Cannabis Cups, owns a dispensary in California and also one in Las Vegas. Another cofounder was formally an in-house counsel for Privateer and also worked very heavily on their Marley Naturals brand. A really amazing group of founders, a great team.

One of our scientists has an incredible depth of knowledge on chemical engineering and chemistry that’s enabled us to get as far as we have. He’s also really good at managing teams. We have our own in-house product designer and graphic designer who is incredibly well known, has launched products that sold in Nikea and (51.45 unclear) and actually designed the primary design work for an Audi automobile that went to market. So a really well know designer. I think when it comes to marketing and branding if it’s not done in-house, it’s done in the outhouse. Obviously we will work with a lot of outsource advertising agencies, etcetera, but when it comes to actually figuring out the branding, what the brand is going to look like, what it’s going to stand for, we do all that in-house and have our own two person team that’s managing that.

We are right now 11 entrepreneurs and early stage employees at Province, which is a reasonable number of people. Between us we have had four successful exits. We’ve had 14 years experience in the alcohol industry, 13 years experience in the cannabis industry. If you add it all up collectively for previous projects we’ve raised more than $75 million. So, it’s a group of guys who really know how, guys and girls, to put a business together.

Matthew: Where are you in the fundraising process right now?

Dooma: We are in a very unique situation. In my previous business in the United States and for all the entrepreneurs who are listening who are in the United States, it’s a lot different up here in Canada. You have access to things. Because cannabis is federally legal for medical purposes in Canada, and has been since 2001, you have sort of a support system that’s grown up around this industry that you don’t have in the United States, and that enables us to do things that you couldn’t really do in the United States. For example, our law firm is Bennett Jones, which is a major international law firm with offices in nine countries. You can’t really work with those big international law firms as easily in the United States.

In Canada there’s a whole industry that has grown up around supporting marijuana companies, mostly medical marijuana companies in the capital market and helping them with fundraising. So, we’ve been very fortunate at Province to attract the attention of Thought Launch Capital Advisory to help us with our fundraising. These guys are a well known firm out here. They just completed a very successful and substantial fundraise for one of the major licensed producers here in Canada. They’re sort of taking the lead on fundraising efforts, which is great for me as a CEO because it enables me to spend a lot of my time doing things other than raising money. I always believe that a CEO’s job is to raise money for their company, and I think to some extent that’s always true, but you can get a lot of help from that that you can’t ordinarily get in the United States.

We will be attending the ArcView Conference here in Toronto. We’ll be presenting. We were selected to pitch on stage so we will be presenting at that event. We have a little bit of money left in our current round. I expect shortly after ArcView it will be complete, but we are going to open another round around September/October timeframe in which we’ll raise about $10 million. Fundraising is something we’re always doing. The cost of putting together the world’s first cannabis brewery is not inexpensive. We’re looking at needing to raise, assuming revenue hits the targets we’ve set out for ourselves, we would need to raise an additional $40-$50 million Canadian dollars over the next three years.

Matthew: That ArcView, which is a fundraising event for angel investors in the cannabis industry to come together with entrepreneurs. That is July 16-18 in Toronto for accredited investors that are listening, outside of Canada as well that might be interested in going. You’re doing a lot of fundraising. It sounds a lot different. I would love to dive into that, but that’s really not what we’re talking about here, but that seems like a totally different process from what we’re used to talking about. That’s interesting.

Dooma: It is a lot better. I’ll just say on the ArcView front, to date our single largest investor in Province is someone that we met at the ArcView event in Los Angeles. If anyone out there is an entrepreneur raising money for their company or an accredited investor looking for the best deal flow in the country or in the world, I think ArcView is probably the top spot. I’m a big supporter. They don’t pay me to say this, but I really believe in the organization and it’s done a lot for me.

Matthew: Great. Before we close let me ask you a couple of personal development questions. Is there a book you would recommend to CannaInsider listeners that has had a big impact on your life or way of thinking that you would like to share?

Dooma: If you are in this industry or thinking about getting into this industry and you have not read The Hard Thing About Hard Things by Ben Horowitz, you should do that right away before you do anything else. Have you read it Matt?

Matthew: I haven’t read it, but is this Andresson Horowitz the VC Firm?

Dooma: Exactly, and also Loud Cloud and Opswear. He’s a very successful entrepreneur. He breaks it down in a way that it was so eye opening. I read it recently actually. I read it just when I was starting up Province. I was like okay, entrepreneurship it means so many different things to so many different people. There’s a whole class of people for whom entrepreneurship means let’s just do this easy thing, make some easy money like flipping houses, buying apartment buildings. That’s entrepreneurship. You can do that, but if you really want to change the world, if you really want to do something that is fundamentally going to change the direction of society, that’s a hard thing and it’s not going to be easy.

Running a business is never easy. Running that kind of a business is almost impossible. The number of hurdles that you have to face and the challenges associated with operating a business in any industry, specially one that’s trying to make change, is overwhelming. To do that, to do anything in cannabis you’re facing so many challenges. I mean, this is the hottest industry in the world right now, bar none, but it is also the most difficult industry in which to succeed. So I think that book is amazing. The other one that I would recommend also to anyone who wants to start a company in cannabis is by Ashley Vance and it’s the Elon Musk biography. (59.00 audio cuts) how to run your own business by watching how he has run his and started his so successfully.

Matthew: I got the whole answer there for the first book, but then the whole second part on your second book just totally dropped out. So, let’s just do this. You just jump in and go, and there’s a second book.

Dooma: The second book I would recommend is Ashley Vance’s biography of Elon Musk. He is such a phenomenally talented entrepreneur and there’s so much you can learn about starting and operating your own business by seeing how he has done it so incredibly successfully.

Matthew: He made a cameo appearance in this comedy called Why Him with James Franco. I don’t know if you’ve saw that, but it’s a really funny movie. James Franco is like this Silicon Valley entrepreneur that’s super rich. If anybody missed that, it’s just really worth watching on Netflix or Amazon streaming or something. It’s really good. Why Him? Let me ask you another question here. Is there a tool, web-based or otherwise, you use weekly or daily that you consider very useful that you would recommend?

Dooma: Yeah I could do a whole podcast on this, but I’ll try to keep it short. We use Smart Sheet at Province. It’s a fantastic tool. It’s great for long term planning and project management. There’s this debate. There’s two different schools of thought around project management. One group of people likes the Waterfall where you do a GANT chart and plan things out well in advance. The other group of people like the ConBon boards and the Agile workflow. They argue about these different sort of approaches to productivity on the internet all day and all night. What’s so great about Smart Sheet is you can do them both.

It has a ConBon functionality. It also has GANT chart functionality. It is a really amazing tool. I love it. It reminds me, in the video game business we used tools like Jira and Greenhopper. Those tools were amazing for tracking productivity, but they cost an insane amount of money. For just a tiny fraction of what we would pay for those productivity tools, Smart Sheet does almost all the same thing. So, I think it’s way ahead of its time. It’s a great tool. We also use Slack. If anyone from a company sends me an email, I delete it without reading it. Slack is the only way I communicate on phone or in person with people who are team members at Province. I think it’s very efficient as a great way to clean out your inbox and also a great way to foster communication with folks who may not be sitting right next to you.

Matthew: Why has it transformed your life compared to email? What do you think the benefit is for Slack?

Dooma: I don’t have any junk in my email, first of all. I never give out my personal email on any of those web things, like when you buy something and they want an email address, I never get it. I don’t get any span, but even without spam I get 200-400 emails a day, mostly from outside folks. It’s not feasible for me to respond to all of them in the same day. So, if people from my company need something from me and they send me an email, it just gets caught in that clutter and it gets weighed down and it adds to that clutter. The most important thing to me are my team and my employees and what they need. That always has to be first priority, but it saves trouble reading through all my email looking for things that were sent for people in my company because when people need something from me, they either ask me in person or they put it in Slack and I can see it right away or they put it in Smart Sheet.

If someone is asking for me to do something that I can’t do in a split second, it typically ends up in Smart Sheet and then the task gets done because that’s the tool we use for tracking all of our tasks. I think what makes Slack amazing from my perspective is just the ability to have a different way. If you think about it email was made a long time ago and it was made for some kind of military defense purpose. It’s a really inefficient way to communicate. You got to type in someone’s ID, which is their email address. Then you have to decide what you’re going to call this thing that you’re going to say to them, so that’s your subject heading. You have to say “Dear so and so” and write it like a paragraph format. If there’s other people, you have to decide who to copy. There’s a bunch of buttons to press along the way to making that happen. With Slack, you just open the window, type the thing and send it and it doesn’t have to be fully formed. It doesn’t have to have as many steps involved in communicating. I just find it way more efficient, so I’m a big fan of that tool as well.

Matthew: Dooma, what’s the best way for listeners to connect with you and find you online?

Dooma: We have a website,, there’s nothing on there and there probably won’t be anything on there until we’re ready to launch our products, but in the meantime it will allow you to put in your email address. If you put your email address there, we will get in touch with you. I promise. We’re very good about that, or you can find me basically on every social media platform; Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn and you can find Province brands on all of those platforms as well. If you direct message us on any of those, we will get back to you. We’re very good at following up with folks.

Matthew: Great. Dooma, thanks so much for coming on and telling us about Province and good luck with everything you’re working on.

Dooma: Same to you man. Thanks for this opportunity. It really means a lot to me and I really enjoyed it.

Read More

From Stealth Bomber to a Space Age Cannabis Technology with Bob Pratt

bob pratt herbalizer review coupon code

Bob Pratt is the co-inventor of The Herbalizer, arguably the most expensive vaporizer that cannabis enthusiasts consider the gold standard. Bob formerly worked in the Aerospace industry on the stealth bomber.

Learn more at
Use Coupon Code CANNAINSIDER for 10% off

Key Takeaways:
[1:58] – What is the Herbalizer
[2:50] – Bob’s background
[7:36] – What does the Herbalizer look like
[8:52] – Similarities of Herbalizer customers
[9:49] – Differences and benefits of each temperature setting
[14:44] – Using different strains in the Herbalizer
[21:16] – How fast does the Herbalizer heat up
[25:01] – Bob talks about the brain power behind the engineering of Herbalizer
[29:00] – What is off gassing
[32:04] – Capturing the true flavor of the plant
[33:31] – Using the Herbalizer medicinally
[37:42] – Bob answers some personal development questions
[43:57] – Contact information for Herbalizer


Read Full Transcript

How do you create a premium priced cannabis related product that allows you to have a sustainable business, but also brings a compelling and unique experience to customers? That’s the question we’re going to explore today with Bob Pratt, Co-inventor of the Herbalizer. Bob, welcome to CannaInsider.

Bob: Thanks for having me Matt. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Matthew: Bob, give us a sense of geography. Where are you in the world today?

Bob: Today I’m at our office in San Diego, California in the United States. Today is Independence Day for us, July 4th, so the office is clear, but I’m here.

Matthew: I’m in Scotland right now and I have people ask me why do Americans always say the name of a city then the state or the name of the city and then the country. That really had me thinking why do we do that, because other nationalities don’t do that. I think I’ve figured it out. That is we say, I’m in Boston, Massachusetts because it’s so easy to confuse Boston and Austin, Texas or I could say if I’m in Portland, people go Portland, Maine or Portland, Oregon. I was like god, I’m finally glad I narrowed that down. Thank you.

Bob: No worries. Yeah there’s not too many San Diegos, but I think we never know. We’re kind of L.A.’s redheaded stepchild here. Los Angeles that is, and so we like to make sure people know we exist too.

Matthew: Sure, great quality of life you have down there.

Bob: Yes, love the weather.

Matthew: Bob, what is the Herbalizer? Can you tell us at a high level?

Bob: The Herbalizer, the name itself, kind of implies that hybridization of two names. So there’s herbal and vaporizer. Although we’re sometimes called an aroma therapy device, back in the past, just to kind of skirt some paraphernalia issues, it’s really an herbal vaporizer. In short what that means is that it’s a device that blows hot air across herbal material and liberates the essence of that herb usually in some sort of essential oil. Cannabinoids are very well known essential oil.

Matthew: I like that. That might have to be a tagline. You liberate the essence. That’s pretty good. How did you come to start the Herbalizer? What’s your background and how did this come to be?

Bob: I’m an engineer by trade, mechanical engineer and then by profession and aerospace engineer. First out of school I designed components on the stealth bomber at Hugh’s Aircraft Company. Then over time I’ve gone to various really cool projects, and I ended up in the space business for UC Berkley designing and building one or two of a kind research satellites. That gave me a lot of experience in the NASA, ESA space world. It’s funny because we were doing what they call thermal vacuum testing, and that’s where you take your space craft components, put them into a vacuum chamber to mimic the environment in space.

While we were doing this there’s a lot of time to kill because thermal vacuum testing, it’s kind of akin to watching paint dry. There’s 99 percent boredom and 1 percent incredible action where you’re trying to scramble and figure out what things are doing when they go awry. While we were doing this, my friend and I, we discussed something he saw on the internet, and it was a vaporizer. It was a very simple one, but he said he thought this was really an interesting field and asked if I’d be interested in designing one with him and that’s how we got started.

Matthew: Were you a cannabis enthusiast or herb enthusiast before this?

Bob: A long time ago in college. Not so much later in life. It was more just an interesting project. My friend was more of an enthusiast. I was aware of it, but not really the vaporizer end. After we got into it more, I realized that’s like drinking beer through a straw, if you don’t use a vaporizer. You really miss out. I saw Montel Williams give a special, because he has MS, about why would you do something that would be destructive to your body while you’re trying to help your body, because he used it medicinally. The vaporizer is just phenomenal in general.

Matthew: One question about the stealth bomber. I saw one at an air show. They’re pretty impressive looking. Are they still covert? Can we fly those things around and people don’t know, NMB militaries can’t detect that thing or do they have advanced radar now that can pick up on that? Do you know?

Bob: I do. They’re absolutely amazing. They have a radar signature of a bumblebee roughly. So, unless you’re looking for bumblebees, you aren’t going to find them. The only way that a stealth bomber can really be detected is visual sighting. And that’s why during many of the efforts the US was involved in, they would fly under the cover of either night or during a storm because they just really cannot be seen still to this day. They’re a pretty amazing plane.

Matthew: I just got to ask one more question. How is that accomplished? Because I think of radar, it’s like we’re sending out these radio waves. They bounce back and that’s how we get an image of what’s taking up space in the sky.

Bob: Radio is an electromagnetic transmission, and it’s certain wavelengths that they classify as radar. What they do is they send a signal out and they look for a return from whatever is out there to be detected. So, the stealth bomber in particular has its minimal radar signature, as they call it, by virtue of two things. It’s geometry and surface coating. The coating that the plane is made of more or less just absorbs the energy and doesn’t reflect it. Because of the geometry, with no real sharp edges and corners, it don’t have a tendency to even return the signal if it does have any reflected emissions.

Matthew: Wow, that’s some brain power that’s going into that. You could try to create a stealth vaporizer. That would really sell.

Bob: Well we initially tried that with the Herbalizer. We wanted it to be very low key and be able to just sit anywhere in somebody’s house and not really be detected. I guess we do a little too good of a job on the aesthetics because it really does catch a lot of attention from people.

Matthew: Let’s talk about that. If it was in front of us right now, since people are listening and not seeing, describe what it looks like, the shape and size and footprint.

Bob: I guess it might have, it’s an ovaloid, so that’s kind of an egg-ish style shape, but I look at it more as a large beach stone, if you’re familiar with those. It’s very rounded which made it a challenge to fit all the components inside it, but the overall look is very smooth and the finish is what I kind of call the automotive paint style. I’m an auto enthusiast. So when it came to picking colors for the Herbalizer, I worked with our designer and picked a color scheme that was of what I would consider a two tone Audi would look really good in those colors, because it’s a very shiny. It has metallic. It has pearl into the paint and it’s really beautiful.

Matthew: Just so we can get a sense of how much it costs, what does it retail for?

Bob: The MSRP for the Herbalizer Classic is $599.

Matthew: For that price, are you getting some customers that are really serious about investing in their medication? What do you notice about the trends or similarities among your customers?

Bob: The initial demographic we were shooting for was very sophisticated enthusiasts, higher than average income, very much a connoisseur, and we still have that sector of the market. What was really surprising to us was how many people came to our device who are true medicinal users. They did that for a number of reasons. The ease of use, how quickly it comes to temperature. It’s ready to go almost instantly and it’s also very precise. The precise nature of the temperature control is what’s really important for people that want to get the same experience each time. Somebody who is using it medicinally really wants to focus on that.

Matthew: Let’s talk about that. The different temperature settings and the benefits of each one. The differences and benefits of each one. Can you go through those for us?

Bob: There’s three ranges that we call out. It’s kind of a random choice, but one is a low temperature which is a very uplifting, subtle type of experience. There’s the medium range which is really what I think a lot of people prefer, and that’s the more euphoric type of experience. The very high range we get people that just like to set it on the maximum temperature to extract everything out of the herb immediately, but also that higher range is good for relaxation and for pain management.

Matthew: Okay, that’s really good to know. So, once you get to the higher levels, it’s good for pain and also maybe helping sleep and so forth.

Bob: Yeah, very much so.

Matthew: If you were going to watch Caddy Shack or some comedy, which level would you do?

Bob: I would prefer the medium. In fact, that’s I think the preferable one in general just for me personally, but that would be the euphoric end, which would make laughter all very easy and that’s great for watching a comedy. What we kind of have here though is that you could look at this as what you would do during different parts of the day. For instance, the very low temperature, the subtle uplifting, great for energizing yourself early in the day. The medium would be great for unwinding at the end of the day, maybe relaxing with friends, watching your favorite television show on TV. Later in the day, as you’re getting ready to go to bed, you could use the higher temperature. This can all be accomplished with the same herb within the bowl.

Matthew: Let’s contrast the low and the high and skip the medium for a second. When you’re getting the low, you’re just taking some of the terpenes and essence of the plant that would come off at a low level, but when you’re at the high do you get the same as the low plus, is that what’s happening?

Bob: The way that boiling works, and that’s really what this is because you’re vaporizing a liquid form into a vapor or gas. So what we’re doing here is we’re taking whatever cannabinoids and they’re broken into the terpenes of course also, and whatever boils at that temperature and below will be vaporized when you run hot air across it at that temperature. The way this all works is kind of hypothetical at this point because we look at it anecdotally. I hate to use that word because anecdotal evidence kind of has a little bit of a stigma of not really knowing what we’re doing, but the thing is a lot of people have related their personal experiences on this to where we feel very confident that what I’m about to say is very true.

That is that these temperature ranges are such that you are liberating the cannabinoids that have these certain effects. There are lexicons which describe what each cannabinoid effect is, whether it be euphoric or mutagenic or various things. So, the hypothesis is that the lower temperatures boil off the cannabinoids that have the lower temperature. This is true of any herb. It just so happens that cannabis is a really complex herb with 28 well known cannabinoids. What exists there is the thing that I think is really interesting and really deserves a lot of research. Unfortunately we’re stuck with the Schedule I narcotic moniker for cannabis to where they really haven’t done a lot of research. So, these are still just hypothetical things.

This so called selective extraction, it’s been kind of a pet idea of mine for a long time, and I think a lot of other people are coming onboard with it. That is you can actually vaporize at a certain temperature and not even use the vapor from that and then vaporize at a slightly elevated temperature and really take a narrow band of cannabinoids out into the vapor and use that for various therapies. CBD would be a real nice one to use in this way, the cannabidiol, which a lot of people feel has probably the majority of the medicinal use within cannabis.

Matthew: How do you experience strains different, if at all, in the Herbalizer?

Bob: Well the various strains all have a different make up. My good friends up at Steep Hill Labs, they’re one of the testing organizations that actually looks at a strain and will give you a breakdown of what percentage of each cannabinoid are present in it. A different strain that is maybe more heavily containing cannabidiol versus THC will definitely have a different effect. You’ll get a more euphoric experience with the heavy THC, but the word is you’ll get a little bit better medicinal experience with the high CBD strain. They have all kinds of other cannabinoids, like I say, 28 well known. Each strain is a little different and that’s why people, and this is one again their own experience, they lock on to a particular strain that they like because of the experience they get.

Matthew: That makes a lot of sense. In my mind I feel like if it’s too high of THC and not high enough CBD, then everybody’s body chemistry is a little different, but there’s the paranoia factor is just a little too high where it’s not optimal in my eyes. Everybody is so different. Everybody’s looking for the THC, but I think that idea may start to be shifting a little bit to be like well, this is the outcome I want and I don’t necessarily just want to look at this one variable and say let’s crank this baby to the moon.

Bob: Right. Well moderation I think is the key with most things. The synergy of the plant, which is why we here at Herbalizer really promote using flower, because the various cannabinoids work in concert with each other. That’s why maybe you don’t want one that is basically engineered to be too high in one without being balanced in the other. So a lot of people I think are coming to the same conclusion that you are that they like to have that more balanced strain. Of course that’s where we really promote our device in the consistency of the experience. If you use the same strain and you vaporize with our device at a certain temperature, you’re going to get the same experience pretty much each time outside of your own personal things or you sleep one day than the other or maybe you just had a pot of coffee or who knows what. As far as the delivered vapor, you’re going to get precise temperature control, giving you repeatable extraction.

Matthew: I think that’d be a good reality show if we could get people to drink a pot or two of coffee, then hook them up on a high level of the Herbalizer with some great herb in there and just watch what happens.

Bob: That’s funny, as I take a drink of a cup of coffee. One thing we did early on, which is kind of funny, we actually vaporized coffee bean and it worked.

Matthew: What was that experience like?

Bob: Well it was the same experience as caffeine. It definitely made you feel invigorated, but it was really quick. It happened within 30 seconds. What was more interesting is that it relieved asthma conditions from a friend of mine who was dealing with mold in his apartment and he didn’t realize it. He was just having trouble breathing sometimes and would wheeze. I said well an old backpacker’s solution for people that have an asthma attack when you’re out in the wilderness is to give people coffee. So, why don’t you try vaporizing some coffee bean and it sure enough worked. Once again I always have to back off and say these are not medical solutions. These are ideas in medical therapies.

Matthew: Right we’re not doctors. Talk to your doctor, all disclaimers.

Bob: Absolutely.

Matthew: When you experienced the coffee bean vaporization it comes on quicker then I imagine it fades quicker too.

Bob: I probably drink too much coffee so it all fades pretty quick with me. I don’t think it necessarily—it might be a little more peaked I guess is what you’re saying. The fact that it gets into your bloodstream very quickly through the lungs, you probably feel it right away, but the nature of caffeine is it stays with you quite a while anyway. It’s probably just a little bit more intense and shorter.

Matthew: Bob I think you’ve lit a fuse in my mind. Now I’m thinking of all the different things I can vaporize.

Bob: Well that’s good, and that’s what we promoted early on. We even did focus groups with a local herbalist, very early in our development at the Self-Heal School here in Ocean Beach. His eyes lit up when we first talked to him about the idea of vaporizing herbs instead of using tinctures and teas and salves, balms, because those all take a long time for the body to react to them, but the so called phyto-inhalation, which is the inhalation of plant matter, is very quick and he knew this. With these focus groups we actually had people do akin to what I was alluding to earlier in that they would record what they were feeling like, had they had any coffee that day, how long ago they woke up, and then they would try a certain herb and we prepared a dozen herbs in little zip lock bags for the people in the focus group to try. That’s how we got a lot of the anecdotal evidence about what various herbs, if they actually did as advertised, when you vaporized them. Unfortunately we kind of had to back off from that as a way to market the device because education is really tough. It takes years. We really didn’t have the infrastructure to do that.

Matthew: That makes sense. Let’s switch gears back to the device and talk a little bit about how you get the temperature up to speed. How fast to get it to a low, medium or high setting?

Bob: When we time it we time it to maximum temperature. Of course any temperature below that would be faster. I guess we do it a little bit for the salesman wow factor. Initially when we were sitting down the specifications we wanted to hit for the device we wanted to have it heat up to full temperature in 30 seconds, and we thought this was pretty lofty considering that the main competitor on the market at that time was between four and a half and five minutes. The first prototype we did, which was a full blown operating unit, was about 40 seconds, and we decided that wasn’t quite what we were after. There was some going back and forth, but we decided to try to do a little bit better job. WE did a little redesign to it. We got it to be 15 seconds, I’ve had people say less. It happens so quickly that you think it’s instantaneous basically.

Matthew: That’s great. These are first world problems we have. Gosh, my vaporizer takes too long to heat up.

Bob: It’s funny though because it’s a real sticking point for a lot of people because say they want to go to a movie, and they have their friends over, they meet at one place and then they decide to walk down the street to their favorite movie theatre and they say hey, anybody interested. Sure. We wait, tick tock tick tock. It’s that anticipation commercial with the ketchup right. You’re really cognizant of how long it takes when you’re waiting for it.

Matthew: That’s true. It’s funny that you mentioned that. I was reading an article about Jeff Bezos, the CEO of Amazon, the questions he asks himself to kind of decide the trajectory of his business. He says, I don’t think about what will change in 15 or 20 but I think about what won’t change. He says, for example, I know that people will never want their items they ordered slower. They’ll always want it faster and they’ll always appreciate it being faster. Gosh that’s true. He goes, I feel confident about that. Whereas so many other things in the market may change. If I focus on that one thing, then there’s a good chance people will come to us, assuming our prices are good.

Bob: Yeah, value point is always an argument among people who make products. Speed, either of delivery or of use, nobody ever wants it slower. That’s for darn sure.

Matthew: I heard the Chairman of Google Eric Smidtz say the same thing. He said well it’s got to be fast first or no one will have the patience to care about, to see what else we can deliver. Like how good our search results are, it’s just got to be fast first. That’s really true. I think this is only going to accelerate strangely, maybe for the better, but in our hyper connected world where everything is going to speed up to the point where if we were to jump five years in the future would be oh, I had to wait 30 seconds for my Uber, I’m outraged.

Bob: Yeah, I used to be a collector of books, particularly technical books in my field, which was classical mechanics. Nobody uses books anymore. It’s amazing to me. They go, why go to a book shelf and try to figure out the spot where it’s at, just do a Google search. Times have changed, that’s for certain.

Matthew: Can you just tell us how you accomplished the speed and the temperature because that sounds like a sticky problem. I want to hear if there’s any engineering brain power behind it to get hot that fast?

Bob: There’s downsides and upsides to doing something from scratch. In other words, a design. You’re free to make certain choices early on that you can design in certain characteristics. Having a lot of design experience I think helped us out here because I knew ahead of time that I wanted to keep the thermal mass or thermal inertia of the device low. What that means is any part that could get hot in the device while it was heating up I wanted to keep the mass of that very small and also insulate that little isolated area of components that get hot from the rest of the components, were not wasting heat, heating up the rest of the device.

So by doing that from the get go, we kept this concept of the thermal mass or thermal inertia low in the device. By doing that then, any heat that we take out of the heater goes directly to heating the hot air. It’s kind of like a slug of air that is in the device until you turn it on or inhale. I guess if I were looking for an example to try to tell people what this is like, imagine a delivery truck versus a Ferrari or a Corvette, since we’re here in the United States. A car with a light flywheel can rev or increase the RPM of the engine very easily and it’s very responsive. The engine RPM goes up and down very quickly. Where a delivery truck, a more massive device needs an engine that has a little slower response, but is able to be a little bit more steady.

So you end up with heavier components, heavier flywheel, not so responsive. The downside then is stability. What we did is we also used a microprocessor in the control of the device. We used an algorithm which actually keeps the temperature controlled very tightly. It fluctuates at a very small amplitude very often, but it’s under tight control. So that responsiveness is then controlled to have very good temperature stability because of the microprocessor within the unit.

Matthew: What controls the microprocessor? Is there a software algorithm or how do you do that?

Bob: They call it a PID control style. Basically that looks at where the temperature is and where you want it to go and has various factors that weight the temperature difference and the slope of the temperature. In other words, the rate that it’s increasing or decreasing and tells the heater what to do. It’s a custom algorithm for our device that was arrived at empirically for the most part, which means using the device, turning this control algorithm to the characteristics of the device. There’s a lot of brain power within that microprocessor. We all know how smart our phones are now. The microprocessor that’s in the Herbalizer is only probably utilized to about 10 percent of its capability. So, it can handle anything we throw at it as far as that control algorithm.

Matthew: Tell us a little bit about off gassing. You mentioned that briefly, but I want listeners to understand what that is. I’ve experienced this with cheaper vaporizers and maybe you can explain why that’s not desirable.

Bob: The whole concept of off gassing, if you don’t mind me digressing just a bit, it’s really only a know factor to people in certain special industries. So, being part of the space industry or business, you worry about having spacecraft up in orbit where when they get warm the components give off their volatiles. The reason why this is important is because a lot of spacecraft have optics, particularly the spy satellites, but also the telescopes that we have on orbit. One of the ones I worked on was a solar platform that looked at the sun for solar flares and coronal mass ejections. Then you’ve also got various telescopes that look off and do star mapping. You don’t want any of these volatiles to play off onto the optics.

In the space industry you’re very careful to not put components in your system that use materials that off gas. They call it out gassing. The idea is that you’ve all maybe heated up something that was painted and you smell something. That’s the volatile that you’re smelling. We don’t want any volatiles to come into the hot air path when we are heating our unit. We are very careful to choose ceramics. Glass in particular is one that we used, that will not off gas, also stainless steel is a very good material for not off gassing. Again, we designed this in from the outset that we would have a hot air path. Actually many of the materials that surround the heater itself are of this nature that they do not—nothing is completely not out gassing, but it’s imperceptible. They’re as good as you can get. That’s really a nice thing for two reasons.

First of all, the health benefits. You don’t want to be inhaling these volatiles that come off of things that are solvents and such. Just like you really don’t want to be inhaling benzenes, carcinogens from burnt plant matter, which is the whole reason behind the vaporizer. If you’re going to the extent of using a vaporizer, it really made sense to use to use a vaporizer that doesn’t introduce anything else into the hot air flow except the essential oils from the plant that you’re trying to liberate.

Matthew: Good points. I think that’s really important because I think we’ve all kind of smelled that or experienced it, but didn’t know quite what it was and thought through how that could be minimized. Is there anything you can tell us about how you capture the true flavor of the plant?

Bob: A lot of people are really surprised when they use our device. Even recently we’ve introduced some glass attachments that go with it. The thing that pretty much hands down people say is wow, that tasted really good. The plant itself, without anything else being introduced into the vapor, tastes really good. People are oftentimes surprised because they had be using other means, particularly people that actually smoked it. Outside of the kind of almost excitement that’s generated from inhaling something that’s a little bit caustic to your system, once you get passed that and you realize that you just want to inhale the vaporized essential oil of the plant and you get to where you then become what I think is a true connoisseur where you actually taste exactly what you’re getting out of each strain. Some of the guys, they’re amazing, they’re like wine tasters. They know exactly which strain just by the taste of it, when they’re using a high quality vaporizer.

Matthew: Yeah, I don’t doubt that. Now do you ever anecdotally hear about people using the Herbalizer to alleviate any specific symptoms or addictions, like opioid addictions and things like that?

Bob: Yeah, what’s come about is kind of one of my pet areas. We have a group in Uruguay at the main university down there. By the way, Uruguay is the first country to completely legalize cannabis. They’re doing a couple of different studies, and one is to get people off of crack cocaine through using cannabis as a way to taper off and control the cravings a little bit. I’m not sure of exactly all the little nuances of that, but it’s a university run program in concert with their government that we’ve actually given some devices to. I made some 220 volt devices for them and supplied them. That’s always been something that I’ve really felt good about us doing. It’s kind of that give back end of things. One of the real surprises though, and we here in the US and particularly on Independence Day, salute and a shout out to all the veterans, as I wave my little flag in case we’ve been on video.

We have a lot of veterans that part of the VA protocol, which is the Veterans Administration, for treatment of people that come back with either lost limbs or anxiety issues or things like that, one of the main things was opiates. Opiates are really addictive, they’re really expensive. Now we’re having an opiate addiction crisis here in this country and probably elsewhere in the world. One of the amazing things is that a lot of these veterans, they just weren’t happy with that kind of regimen that they were being directed towards and some of them turned to cannabis. I know some of them have actually come here, even though they don’t live in state, just to visit us. I remember one in particular. The poor guy, he was not really communicative, really reserved, introverted, kind of a pasty white complexion, and it turned out he had a lot of issues going on with his internal organs that have been compromised through the prolong use of opiates. Just general nature.

What we found out later was very much compromised. We made him a nice little veterans deal on a device and he and his wife said thank you and took off. Nine months later they came back into the office just because they were out there vacationing. I think they lived in Arizona. They wanted to stop by. He came in and I really didn’t recognize him at first. His skin had returned to the nice flesh color. His eyes were wide open and bright. He saw me come out of my office and he rushed over and just gave me a big hug. He told me how happy he was that we were able to hook him up with one of our devices. He had changed his pain and anxiety regimen from opiates to cannabis. It completely changed his life. Afterwards while he was buying some accessories from one of the people in the office, his wife came over to me and no hug, she said to me, thank you so much for giving my husband back to me.

There are other cases like that similar, where they have come to our office, but I know that there’s countless cases out in the world where people are using our device and others, but we like to think ours predominantly, to get that kind of relief and have a lifestyle back where they can manage pain in a way that they choose.

Matthew: Wow, that’s an uplifting story, especially on the 4th of July. Thanks for sharing that Bob.

Bob: Absolutely.

Matthew: Bob I like to ask some personal development questions to let listeners get to know you a little bit better. With that, is there a book that has had a big impact on your life or way of thinking?

Bob: Not really one in particular, but I kind of felt we were heading this direction and I thought about this. I’m a classic over achiever. You spend nine or ten years in college, that’s probably problematic. Also I’ve also been very driven in that way. I’d say the thing that probably made the most impact, one time when I was in grad school up at UC Berkley, we were at an afternoon beer, wine, cheese kind of thing. The department chairman came up and just asked me how I was doing. I said ah, I’m just so under the gun here. I’ve got so much going. I’ve got a to do list you wouldn’t believe. He asked me he said, tell me about this to do list. I started telling him. Basically it came out that there were 30-40-50 items on it and he just shook his head and he said, that’s way too many.

If you have more than three to five things on your to do list for any one day, you’re over extending yourself. I had no idea the merits of he was telling me until much later. That’s really the way that I kind of gear my life now is that I look for what I call the big potatoes and I don’t worry about the small potatoes. What I find is that gives me the ability to interact with people. I have more margin in my time. I can actually be a lot better friend and coworker and human being as I call it to other people. It just makes life a lot more fulfilling. I still get done what I need to get done. It’s just a nicer more relaxed way to deal with things. So, my peace and serenity are very important to me. I live out kind of on the outskirts of town here, and I have a nice chunk of land where I can go out and water my trees, my fruit trees and I just enjoy life.

Matthew: That’s great. Is there a tool, apart from the Herbalizer, that you consider important to your day to day productivity?

Bob: Eating right. I think nutrition. Come to lately is super important. I’ve cut out most processes flour and sugar from my diet. What I’ve found, I had some sugar the other day and it put me into a tailspin. I had trouble remembering things. It was really wild, the difference. Just noticing what that processed food can do to a person physiologically within the brain, just your general energy level. I try to really put nutrition up there high on my list.

Matthew: I agree with you there. That’s very helpful. I’ve been drinking the butter and MCT oil coffee.

Bob: Bulletproof.

Matthew: Yeah, for years now. I remember when I started people said oh that’s going to clog your arteries. You’re going to die of a heart attack. My blood counts have been better and better with the less sugar intake. As long as they’re good high quality fats, it seems to have a beneficial impact. It’s not like I can sit there—after a certain amount of butter you just feel so full that you’re not slamming it, but with cookies it’s like you can eat sleeve after sleeve and it’s just like, all I know is that I have a craving to eat more cookies. It’s like they engineer these foods to make them so palatable they’re like mind crack, hamster crack.

Bob: They’re addictive, yeah. It’s funny that you mentioned that because that’s how I start off my morning is with the purified coconut oil, the grass fed unsalted butter in my coffee and it sounds like a crazy thing, but it’s really good. Little bit of stevia and some almond milk and I’m set.

Matthew: I do have a little variation too. I’ve started to add a couple drops of xylotol and then even some unsweetened cacao, chocolate powder. Just a dash of that and I’m loving that. If people haven’t heard of what we’re talking about here, I can include a link to Bulletproof coffees so you can understand what that is and some of the benefits, what Bob and I are talking about here. Bob, before we close, can you tell us where you’re at in the fundraising cycle, if you’re still looking for capital or where you are?

Bob: I’m glad you asked. We’re at a really interesting point in this company’s trajectory. We had some issues with some former employees that we’re just coming to closure on now. We are really poised to make an aggressive move into the future. That would really come about with a strong investment because we’d like to really jump into the arena a little bit more strongly. Right now we’re kind of a small company, a small player. For various reasons we were handcuffed a little bit as far as how aggressive we could go after things. We would like to increase our market reach and increase production, which helps us bring the cost down. All the things that we really want to entertain, and a lot of that starts with investment.

If people are interested in what we do and in our company, they can certainly reach out to me and see if we are a good fit for them. I know there’s a lot of people really anxious to get into this market sector because you talked about your Amazon guy, looking 15 years into the future. I think people that are doing that with the green market, they really see nothing but increase across the board in every sector.

Matthew: If they do want to contact you about becoming an investor, how do they do that?

Bob: We have a website. It’s I’m sure you’ll put a link up for us on that. If you wanted to get a message to me, the easiest way is through support. You can just send an email. They’ll give it to me and then I’ll contact you.

Matthew: Okay. Well Bob, thanks so much for coming on CannaInsider today and educating us. Good luck with the Herbalizer. It’s really an interesting product, and I encourage everybody to go to the website and check it out.

Bob: Matt, it was truly a pleasure. I really appreciate what you do and you’re a true pro. Thank you very much.

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