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Dr. Stuart Titus is the CEO of Medical Marijuana Inc and General Hemp. Dr. Titus talks about how he got into the industry as an investor and then eventually became the CEO. Dr. Titus talks about how cannabis and CBD patients are using it and how he is expanding his business abroad.
What are the five trends disrupting the cannabis industry?
Find out with your free cheat sheet at https://www.cannainsider.com/trends
– Wall Street to Cannabis and Hemp
– Noticing how athletes and patients use hemp
– Staring in hemp as an investor
– Expanding outside the United States
– How patients are using CBD and Cannabis
– Where the industry will be in five years
Dr. Stuart Titus, CEO of Medical Marijuana Inc. and General Hemp is here to help us understand the promise of medical applications with cannabis and hemp and understand the fastest growing areas in the cannabis ecosystem. Stuart, welcome to CannaInsider.
Dr. Stuart: It's great to be with you today. Thank you so much for the opportunity.
Matthew: Give us a sense of geography. Where are you in the world?
Dr. Stuart: Well, today I am in Scottsdale, Arizona. I'm on company travels, and certainly, our home office based out of San Diego, California.
Matthew: That's a nice place to be in the winter months. Good job. Well done.
Dr. Stuart: Well, certainly, we're enjoying some better weather than many people in the rest of the world, and certainly, it's a great pleasure. But, you know, we do travel extensively, and certainly, this is part of the business that we're in.
Matthew: Yes. And what are Medical Marijuana Inc. and General Hemp? What's important to understand about each of those businesses?
Dr. Stuart: Well, Medical Marijuana Incorporated is a public company. We're actually incorporated in Oregon and were founded back in 2005. In March of 2009, Medical Marijuana Inc. had become a publicly-traded company, the first one in the United States in this industrial hemp medical cannabis space. And certainly, our ticker symbol is MJNA for those who like to follow. And the General Hemp, LLC was formed in 2012. We're a private equity company and General Hemp is the largest single shareholder in Medical Marijuana Inc.
Matthew: Okay. And what was your background before getting into the cannabis and hemp industries?
Dr. Stuart: Well, my career started on Wall Street. I was a bond trader and underwriter for about 11 years. I worked with Credit Suisse First Boston for the majority of my career, kind of a big white shoe investment banking firm and certainly had some great experiences on Wall Street. However, after 11 years, enough of the stress and burnout, everything from Wall Street. So, I totally changed gears and I got into the field of physical therapy and physio therapeutics. I had a wonderful practice in the Carolinas and did that for many years. Certainly, here was where I found out that many athletes using cannabis to help with their pain, inflammation issues, and help them with sleep. I started taking some medical cannabis symposiums and from there, saw a tremendous amount of research going on into these extracts from the cannabis plant family, the cannabinoids. And when our public company started out in California in 2009, I became involved just as an investor. And over time, I've taken on an increasingly large role of the company to the point where today I'm the president and CEO.
Matthew: Wow. Okay. Talk about you get your foot in the door as an investor, and then fast forward, now you're the CEO.
Dr. Stuart: Certainly, it's been a great journey. And we've been very excited about the fact that not all cannabis or not all forms of cannabis, necessarily, are psychoactive. There's the whole industrial hemp side with tremendous industrial use and application. But also the non-psychoactive cannabinoids, CBD or cannabidiol, this has presented a tremendous evolution, if you will, in the field of cannabis-based medicine.
Matthew: Okay. You're doing a lot of different things. Can you summarize your business, medical, and research projects to help listeners understand the scope of work here?
Dr. Stuart: Yes. Our company is certainly well-involved in the cannabis space and we have currently five divisions that are in the nutraceutical sales of hemp-based CBD products. We also have two divisions that are in pharmaceutical development. We're very excited about a lot of the research that's going on, not only in the U.S. but also around the globe. Our company, in particular, are doing a good amount of research in countries such as Mexico, Brazil, and some of our pharma partners, actually, over in Europe in the Netherlands. So, with this, we're certainly an international company and believe that there are tremendous potential opportunities here. We're certainly ones who keep investing back into our businesses and developing global operations. It's been great to have had our products introduced and accepted into the country of Brazil as of April 2014. Here in the U.S., basically, our products are available OTC or over the counter to individuals. They can order them online. But in Brazil, it's only available by doctor prescription.
And the initial indication for us was for what's called refractory epilepsy. This is a type of epileptic seizure disorder that children have that basically is resistant to pharmaceutical intervention. And here, in April of 2014, the country of Brazil saw that our products were working when pharmaceutical products weren't to help certain families and children with epileptic seizure disorders, and they welcomed our product into the country at that time. Subsequently, February of 2016, our products were accepted into the country of Mexico, again, similar indications, refractory epilepsy, again where pharmaceutical medications weren't exactly able to control some of the seizure episodes in these children. Our products were able to do so. And certainly, this has been a great journey for us. We're certainly excited about moving into other markets throughout the globe. And currently, you know, we've had a good year last year in terms of sales, and we're expecting further increases coming up here in 2018.
Matthew: As you get into more international markets, how do you manage currency risk? Because, you know, look at the dollar. The dollar has been super strong up to about January 2017. It's gotten weaker. And recently, it's had a bit of a recovery. But when we're talking about some Latin American countries, sometimes we're dealing with volatile currencies, the Brazilian real, the Mexican peso. How do you manage these currency risks? Do you denominate everything in dollars so you don't have to worry about it? How does that work?
Dr. Stuart: Well, yes, a lot of our transactions do wind up in U.S. dollars. And it's nice to know that, say, in Brazil, for example, the country of Brazil, through their health care system actually reimburses citizens for the cost of our products. So those with the necessary doctor prescription, the necessary importation paperwork will actually get their product paid for and covered by the government of Brazil. And they'll, you know, pay us in either the local currency or in U.S. dollars. And most of this, at the moment, we're being able to convert to U.S. dollars.
As we expand over to Europe, obviously, like any international or multinational company, we're gonna have exposure to currency fluctuations. And that's just part of the cost of doing business. Certainly, if we get large enough, and we're just a, you know, small OTC-traded company, but if we were to grow and get up to the, you know, Nasdaq, New York Stock Exchange level where we're doing hundreds of millions of dollars in sales every year, I believe then we'll be a little bit more active in some of the futures markets where we can offset or hedge some of our risk in terms of currency trading.
Of course, my Wall Street background, I've been fairly familiar with the hedging at risks. Most of the risks I took back on Wall Street were in terms of bonds, U.S. Treasury bonds, and hedging that type of risk. But nonetheless, I was very familiar with the currency-currency trading. And certainly, this is a good way for many multinational companies to help smooth out some of the ups and downs that happen, not only in terms of sales but also in terms of relative values of one currency versus another.
Matthew: I know mortgage-backed bonds are still, kind of, traded by individual mortgage-backed traders. And corporate bonds, I believe, are too or most of them. Do you see, kind of, a fintech revolution coming where all that's gonna be put on the blockchain or somewhere into a fintech cloud where people have more transparency on bond issues and things like that?
Dr. Stuart: I certainly believe so. Of course, back when I was on Wall Street many years ago, this was way before we even had electronic trading. I remember all my trades and tickets were done by hand. And certainly, the advent of the computer and computerized trading has moved us to a whole different dimension here, certainly opening up the markets to many people who would not necessarily have had access back when I was on Wall Street throughout the 1980s.
So, you know, we're certainly excited about the fact that, yes, there are additional opportunities, not only through the blockchain but also through new and innovative products. We really believe that once we get to legalization of cannabis, this will be the largest cash crop in the entire United States, bigger than wheat, corn, soybeans. Certainly, there will be a cannabis futures market in Chicago on the Board of Trade. We truly believe that even things such as cannabis backed bonds may have significant appeal for various investors.
Matthew: Yeah. You know, that's really interesting. I actually, in college, worked on the floor of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange and I was able to see kind of this open outcry environment before it went away. And the thing I wonder about, like, hemp seems like a perfect opportunity to maybe be listed as a commodity. But with cannabis, we're talking about all these different grades and different aspects of it. Do you see that being possible?
I mean, hemp for sure, but you'd really think cannabis could be something that could be a commodity that is exchanged because what would you say? It's like you have Blue Dream over here or this... I mean, how do you define the characteristics? Like, corn or pork belly or orange juice can be really commoditized down to a certain grade level. Do you think everybody would start to move into a certain type of grade to make it possible to have huge liquidity on an exchange or something like that?
Dr. Stuart: Well, I think this is a very interesting concept and a lot of it remains, kind of, in terms of speculation and conjecture. But certainly, I think that we could grade this, say if it was, you know, a marijuana type of cannabis that you could have certain grades, say, a 5% THC, maybe a 10% THC, 20% THC, etc. And potentially, these would be contracts that could potentially be deliverable through the commodities exchange. Say, someone wanted to take delivery of their, you know, existing futures contract, and we would have that potential to have it available. And, of course, on the hemp side, you know, there are many different potential industrial applications and different types of hemp are better for, say, textiles, for example. And other types of hemp are maybe perhaps better for, say, your hemp construction building materials. Some types of hemp grow a better seed than others, other varieties. So I can see several different grades of both the marijuana side of cannabis, as well as the hemp side.
Matthew: Yeah. That would be outstanding if that could happen. It would really help a lot of different market participants hedge their risk in ways and know what...lock in their revenue when they're planting their crop. That would be great if that could happen.
Dr. Stuart: Well, certainly, yes. You know, of course, here in the U.S., the hemp industry is very much in its infancy. We're looking to bring back hemp as a tremendous agricultural crop and commodity like it was many centuries and generations ago. But, yeah, I really think that we can move forward with some interesting things in terms of the various potential applications for hemp, and certainly, I think this has got some real legs to it, I think, for the farmer particularly, since this is a developing market that there isn't a lot of, say, production processing facilities in the U.S. like there are in many foreign countries. And until we get, you know, all these production and processing facilities, the farmer needs to have some type of farm gate outlet or a place where they can go to potentially sell their crop to buyers. I'm sure over time as we develop, you know, large hemp textile facilities or hemp building construction material facilities that the farmer will easily have a place to sell their crop and product, even here while the industry is developing. Certainly, the futures market can help bridge that gap. And obviously, once this industrial production starts to ramp up as we achieve economies of scale by larger and larger hemp production here in the U.S., I think it will be easier and easier for the farmer to find great sources and different uses for their potential crop.
Matthew: Let's pivot to cannabis as a medication and CBD as a medication. Do you think that traditional pharmaceuticals are being cannibalized by CBD and cannabis as a medicine or is the whole market just growing, and now cannabis and hemp are making up a part of that growth?
Dr. Stuart: Well, it's interesting to see this return of cannabis as a medicine. And certainly, since the beginning of recorded time, we see, you know, about 8,000 years B.C., ancient Chinese manuscripts and some of the first, you know, Britain-recorded history of the world. We see various cannabis oils, tinctures, preparations, being used medicinally. And really right up until the late 1800s, early1900s, all the large pharmaceutical companies had several cannabis-based medicines that were, you know, routinely available.
And it's great to see this come back. I think it's going to certainly disrupt some of the markets for pharmaceutical medication. Certainly, we believe, as does Dr. Raphael Mechoulam, a great Israeli-based researcher, the grandfather of cannabis medicine, if you will. Dr. Mechoulam believes that once cannabis is fully researched and has gone through clinical study and approvals, etc., etc., this may replace as much as 40% of all pharmaceutical medicines on the market today.
And certainly, if we can get good cost of production, I think this will help lower overall healthcare costs. Certainly, from the nutritional supplement or nutraceutical side, we believe that cannabinoids help supplement the very large self-regulatory system known as the endogenous cannabinoid system. That's a characteristic of all us humans as well as all mammalian creatures. And certainly, to support this very large self-regulatory system, we find many people moving to much higher levels of overall health and wellness. So certainly, there is nutritional applications as well as medicinal applications.
Matthew: We see the advent of personal genomic mapping like 23andMe bring down the cost massively to under $100 to map your genome. Do you think that there is going to be a bridge between cannabis medications being customized to individual genomes so people can get a much more customized and individualized care plan from a plant like cannabis?
Dr. Stuart: That's very, very interesting. I know, again, the research here very early stage, but certainly, quite exciting. We do see that cannabis, and particularly cannabinoids CBD, seems to have a very strong affinity for a certain group of receptors within the human body. Most people in the cannabis industry are very familiar with the CB1 receptors expressed widely in the brain, the spinal column of the central nervous system. Your CB2 receptors expressed nicely throughout the gut, the viscera, the internal organs.
But interestingly enough, there is another receptor group called the G protein-coupled receptor sites that... Well, a very famous cannabis researcher, Dr. Orrin Devinsky from New York University Hospital, basically looking at epileptic seizure disorders in children. Basically, Dr. Devinsky credits CBD's action on these G protein-coupled receptor sites as the reason that these seizure episodes are decreasing so significantly in children with the types of refractory epilepsy.
Interestingly enough, these very same receptor sites are called technically, the G protein-coupled receptor sites, are responsible for the action of about 800 human genes or about 4% of our entire genomic sequence. So, I think that right there bodes extremely well for cannabinoids to actually affect genetic expression and over time, perhaps we can develop certain types of what you might call designer cannabinoids that will continue to improve on the ability of the human body to properly express genes. Hopefully, this will help us overcome some very significant genetically inherited disorders and the other tendencies that cause significant problems for many people with their health and wellness.
Matthew: Yeah. Fascinating. I can't even imagine what it's going to look like 10 to 20 years from now in terms of what's available as medications and ability to target specific symptoms and issues, get into underlying causes and so forth for individual's specific genome. One question, in terms of applications right now for cannabis and CBD, what is the most popular for your products? Is it oral, liquid, pill? What's the application style the people seem to prefer the most?
Dr. Stuart: Right. Well, nice question. Certainly, we have different forms of delivery and our original form is a paste form, which comes in an oral applicator. It's kind of like a dark-colored toothpaste, if you will. And that was basically our original formulation and product. From here, we've taken this, and of course, many parents with epileptic children find it much easier to feed the child with a liquid form. And so we've taken our paste, reformulated this in combination with an MCT oil. This is technically a medium-chain triglyceride oil such as a coconut oil or an olive oil, for example. And this has been a nice advent that we've been able to develop these liquid products. Many people, of course, are familiar with traditional capsules, and we have those capsules that are available for people. And we also have a topical application salve product that many people are enjoying the benefits from the topical application.
We've also been able to develop a nice vape product. This is a vaporization form of CBD. And here, we feel that this actually goes more directly into the cardiopulmonary system, has a much more immediate effect. Of course, when you take CBD and you swallow it, say, in a capsule form like you do any traditional pharmaceutical medication, basically this goes through the digestive tract and then the liver will certainly metabolize it. And with some pharmaceutical meds, this is what really causes the unwanted side effects. But sometimes it takes, you know, an hour or a couple of hours for the effect of the medicine or, you know, say, for example, for our product for people to potentially have this absorbed into their system and throughout the bloodstream, where the vapor aspect really gets more direct effect into this cardiopulmonary system and a more direct effect up to the brain. So some people feel a more immediate sense of relaxation, well-being, etc. by utilizing the vapor technology.
One of our pharmaceutical development partners, Axim Biotechnologies, is actually working on a medicated chewing gum. And here this would be a combination of THC and CBD, which are delivered through the oral mucosa. Again, here, we feel this can be more directly absorbed, directly into the bloodstream versus going through the digestive tract. And I think this would be nice advent if we get this fully across the finish line and up and available for people around the world to use.
Matthew: Okay. Are you involved in any specific research, past or present, or studies of cannabis or hemp?
Dr. Stuart: We're doing clinical study and research with our natural botanical products. We're doing quite a lot down in Mexico and Brazil at the moment. We've had two nice studies from doctors that basically are just informational studies regarding epileptic seizure disorders in children. And certainly, they've been very favorable as far as some of the early-stage results. Our pharma partners at Axim Biotech are doing clinical study and research over in the Netherlands. One study at the University of Wageningen. And then KannaLife Sciences, our other pharma partner, has done a lot of great research in terms of preclinical work at the Pennsylvania Biotechnology Center in Doylestown, Pennsylvania. And now, some of our animal studies are being done at Temple University in Pennsylvania as well.
Matthew: Do you think legal cannabis is having an effect on diminishing opioid addiction at all?
Dr. Stuart: Oh, I certainly do. There's no question there. We're certainly seeing in the cannabis-friendly states, the incidence of opioid overdose death is about 30% lower than the non-cannabis states. And certainly, this is something that even our National Institute on Drug Abuse has seen the potential here for cannabis or cannabinoids to help assist, or possibly even replace opioids. I think this is a tremendous trend. I think over time, this will certainly happen. And it's just an unfortunate, terrible situation, this opioid epidemic. And we really believe cannabis and cannabinoids hold some significant answers for this problem. I think the last count I heard, that on average, about 143 Americans die every single day from opioid overdose. This is something we really need to look at very seriously.
Matthew: It really is. I mean, if you're listening to this, if you yourself aren't addicted, you probably know someone, a friend or family member, that's had a problem with it. I know I've had a friend die from this and it's just... I don't know why we won't talk about it as a country. And it's really affecting the U.S. much more than other countries and it's just a terrible thing.
But switching over back to the international market, you mentioned Mexico and Brazil. If you were to pick one country outside the U.S. that's...you think is ready and poised for adoption and penetration in terms of, you know, the population getting into this type of thing and adopting it, which country would you say you're most excited about right now? And you can't say all of them. You've got to pick one.
To Be Continued
Gregg Steinberg is the CEO of Growcentia. Together with his three co-founders, Gregg has created an additive called Mammoth that helps cannabis plants become more bioavailable to absorb nutrients. https://mammothmicrobes.com
What are the five trends disrupting the cannabis industry?
Find out with your free cheat sheet at
– Ag tech coming out of Colorado State University in Ft. Collins
– Why most cannabis nutrients are locked up in the growing media or washed away
– How to make your cannabis plants more bioavailable to receive nutrients
– How to increase your plant yield with additives
Matthew: What happens when three Colorado State University soil microbiologists with PhD degrees that share a passion for enhancing soil health and promoting sustainable agriculture get together and create a bio-stimulant that can help cannabis growers? We are going to find out today with our guest, Gregg Steinberg, CEO, and one of the three founding partners of Growcentia. Gregg, welcome to CannaInsider.
Gregg: Thank you Mat. Much appreciated being here today.
Matthew: Gregg, give us a sense of geography. Where are you in the world today?
Gregg: Well, it depends on how we look at that question. Physically, I'm in Colorado in Fort Collins, which is where our company is based and where we were founded. And we can talk more about where our product is and where our global landscape is as we get into this.
Matthew: Okay. And Elon Musk might say you're not even really there and you might be a simulation. What do you think about that?
Gregg: I'm sorry. Say it again.
Matthew: Elon Musk, the founder of Tesla thinks we might be living in a simulation and we might not even really be here to begin with. Have you heard that?
Gregg: I have heard that and it's...He's a unique individual for sure, but our simulation seems to be pretty real every single day. We got lots of people running around, we're building a company and we're living in the moment. Definitely, not a simulation. That's for sure.
Matthew: Okay. Well, Neo in the Matrix thought so too, and then look what happened to him. That's a different podcast. Okay. So tell us what is Growcentia? What is that in a high level?
Gregg: Growcentia is a leading biostimulant company where we produce an additive and an amendment that helps to enhance the yield and help plants. It is an organic product and we're a tech transfer from Colorado State University as you mentioned are three co-founders, are soil microbiology research scientist at CSU initially, and that's where technology comes from. We took that technology off campus. In March of 2015, we raised our first piece of capital with an intent of bringing the technology to the market to help biological solutions, make the win in the marketplace reduce chemical inputs in agriculture in general, and think about a sustainable way, organic way to be environmentally friendly and to help feed the world. That's where we started with our research on campus. And then as we got started and thought about what we would do for business perspective, we pivoted and took a hard look at the cannabis and hemp space, and this is where we find ourselves in the world today.
Matthew: Seems like CSU's spawning a good bit of entrepreneurial activity. Are they doing a good job of helping businesses transition out of CSU? Is there a program for that or is it just kind of a natural organic process that's happening or are they actively encouraging it?
Gregg: There are actively encouraging it. We've had a great relationship with the tech transfer arm with CSU ventures, with the CSU foundation, with the entrepreneurship component of the university both on the agriculture side as well as on a business side. In addition, we're an alumni of the Ionosphere, which is an incubator in Fort Collins, the largest incubator in Fort Collins. And we've had the benefit of many resources at CSU throughout our various components of our business whether it's on the fundraising side, on the business development side, thinking about IP portfolio strategy, thinking about our agriculture inputs and our research and development there. We still maintain labs for research at CSU. We still use resources at CSU for our genomic sequencing for much of our QC work and QA work. We also keep greenhouse space at CSU which we leas from them for plant trials and the product development, etc. So we have a great relationship in university and they've been very supportive in many ways.
Matthew: Maybe you can tell us a little bit about your background and the background of your founding partners so we can get a sense of kind of the expertise at play here.
Gregg: Sure. So three founding members all engaged heavily at CSU. Two co-inventors within that group of our technology, both PhD in soil and microbiology research scientists. Matt Wallenstein share the company currently, still on faculty at CSU, and one of the leading folks in the world on his specialty in terms of soil ecology and soil health. Rich Conant also on faculty and still at CSU, and another sort of core global leader. I'm thinking about environmental health and soil health, etc. And then Colin Bell, the third person of the co-founding team who is both co-inventor on the technology, he was the lead. He was the lead investigator for the grants that we were under at CSU to do an initial technology discovery. And also left the university in March of 2015 when we handle the tech transfer and to get the company started. And Colin is also sort of well-respected and well peer reviewed person in the soil ecology and soil health environment.
Matthew: Okay. And so you have a mission to bring biology back to ag. What does that mean?
Gregg: Well, we think about how to think about reducing...I'm sorry, I'm getting some noise. We think about how to reduce chemical inputs in terms of enhancing yield. Obviously, the last or the first green revolution, if you will, was really driven by chemical solutions to enhance crop yield and to reduce pesticide, and so reduce pests and diseases. And it's served us well to get us to where we needed to get through the feed the world in the population that we have today, but it's had some negative impacts as we all know, to say the least. And the next green revolution really needs to come out of biology rather than out of chemistry. And so we think about using biological solutions naturally occurring bacteria that live in the soil that we extract and isolate to do certain things, driving around a core functionality and utilizing those to really enhance yield and enhance health of the plants and find a way to have those bring nature back to agriculture.
Matthew: Gregg, if you were to sit down and have lunch with a cannabis grower or a cannabis business owner, and help them get the most of the information that you know about plants and plant health, and your product Mammoth and how it can help them, what would you tell them to bring their information level up from where they're at to your level?
Gregg: We're very discovery-based. I think we can start with a couple of questions whether it's to a hobbyist grow, medical care giver or to large-scale commercial grower, really trying to understand what their current methodology is, how they're currently growing, whether they're inside or outside, whether in hydroponic system, what kind of media they are using, how they think about their cloning process, what their cycle is in bench through bloom, etc. And then understand the inputs that they're currently using. What's their recipe? What's their formula that they're currently abiding by? And then have a discussion around how adding a biological solution, such as ours, into that regime, having that additive be a component of that, how that might modify what they're currently doing.
Typically, we suggest not to change anything that they're currently doing, just to add our product on top of everything that they're currently doing. They already have a baseline. Most people are pretty dialed in, they know exactly what they're getting and based on the strains that they're growing, and by adding our product on top of what they're currently doing and seeing what that differential is, at least creates then a new baseline of understanding what that impact is. And then after that, if they wanna play or modify other things that they're doing, we can work with them on thinking about that relative to those core baselines. But we, for sure, wanna have a baseline of where they're at and then a baseline of how you're utilizing product is gonna impact them in a positive way both in terms of the health of the plant as well as in terms of yield enhancement.
Matthew: So if I were to walk into a hydroponic shop and I see all bunch of soil nutrients, and then I see Mammoth, tell us how Mammoth is different and what it can do different than a typical nutrient. And if it's a nutrient at all, or how we should categorize it.
Gregg: For sure. Yeah. And we're actually not a nutrient. Thanks for asking it. We're actually an additive. So we help to cycle the nutrients more effectively and efficiently.
Matthew: Okay. So, an additive is...How is that different than a nutrient, just so we can understand that a little more clearly?
Gregg: For sure, for sure. So you think about nutrient is having a core NPK, nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium type of components to them as well as other micronutrients, magnesium, iron, calcium, etc.
Gregg: And most of the time, it doesn't matter if it's in cannabis or in a corn or wheat or tomatoes. Plants in general are absorbing these nutrients to enhance their health and to enhance their growth cycles. However, many of those compounds don't actually end up in the plant when they're put into the soil or into the substrate or into reservoir, etc. They're not in quite usable form, they're not in a manner that the roots can actually absorb them. They end up binding to substrate or to soil, etc. And this happens in general agriculture as much as it happens in cannabis. And so, these are the impact that you see of things like heavy leaching of phosphorus into the Çeşme Bay and ending up with [inaudible [00:11:05] and things like this as this is heavy phosphorus buildup over decades of phosphorus binding based on fertilizer inputs and nutrients input into soil.
And so what biology does in general, what Mother Nature does is she has bacteria in soil thousands and tens of thousands and millions of different bacteria in soil to help cycle these nutrients. Over time though, especially outdoors, we've seen a breakdown of that natural component because of all the chemicals we've put in. And in the indoor systems some of these biological solutions and cycles aren't there. So by adding a biological solution and additive and amendment such as us into that nutrient cycle, it actually helps to cycle the nutrients more effectively and more efficiently. It breaks them down and puts them into more plant usable form. And so we have 50%, 60%, 70% of the nutrients aren't always absorbed by the plant, it helps to break those nutrients down so you get much greater nutrient use efficiency of the inputs that somebody is putting into their system, before you end up with much more of it up in the plant and as the plant absorbs more of those nutrients, it's gonna be healthy and obviously increase the yield.
Matthew: Okay. So it makes the plant available to receive the nutrients, more of a bio available situation, and maybe even catalyzing the process of getting the nutrients into the plant instead of them washing away when the plants water the next time, just going through the bottom of the soil or whatever media you're using.
Gregg: Yeah, either washing away or just staying bound up in the substrates and the media that are being used and creates the bioavailability of those nutrients for the plant to absorb.
Matthew: Okay. And then what kind of effects have you seen on yield in terms of the clients you work with that have started using Mammoth as an additive?
Gregg: We've had pretty impressive results. We've seen fairly similar results regardless of media being used, cocopeat, etc, with deep water culture, very essential the hydroponic systems or outdoors in soil, various type of soil types around the country, and actually around the world now. Where we've seen an average about a 16%, the one 6% increase in yield across all these different types of methodologies and grow environments that people find themselves in.
Matthew: Okay. Is there bacteria in Mammoth?
Gregg: There is, and this is the core functionality of our technology. So there's four key strains of bacteria in the Mammoth currently. These are strains that we isolated in our work at CSU in the labs during that initial technology breakthrough. It's for strains that sit underneath the patent that we currently have. And they're unique in the sense that we isolated them towards a very specific functionality of ones that would help to cycle phosphorus more effectively and efficiently. And so, these are proprietary strains to us in terms of our consortia, and they're driving towards this core functionality of unbinding phosphorus, releasing phosphorus, increasing the phosphorus uptake into plants as well as helping to breakdown other micronutrients, again, to have that impact on yield.
Matthew: Okay. So it sounds like phosphorous uptake is a bit of an issue and one you've addressed with Mammoth. Why are plants having this problem uptaking phosphorus, or cannabis plants in particular?
Gregg: It's not necessarily a problem with uptaking the phosphorous, so the plants naturally wanna absorb it. It's the bioavailability of that phosphorus in the environment that the plants find themselves. So again, with these nutrients that are put in to have phosphorous in them, even though those nutrients have phosphorus in them, that phosphorus isn't 100% in a form that the plant can actually absorb and take up through its rises and through its roots. And so our product helps to break that phosphorus down and put it into a format, if you will, that the plant can actually absorb through its roots.
Matthew: Okay. And so you mentioned before that you have a kind of lab setup to conduct research. Is that something that's going on like weekly or quarterly, or do you have kind of a test you're doing or what does that look like?
Gregg: Yeah, we actually have 13 people in our company that are full-time dedicated to R&D in our labs. We both have labs at the CSU as I mentioned. We do a sequence work there, isolation work there, extraction work there, etc., in terms of new product development that are in our quality control for current product that we're manufacturing. We also have lab space at our headquarters facility in Fort Collins off campus. And then we have members of our R&D team around the plash trial side. As I mentioned we have the greenhouse space at CSU that we do plant browse on. We also have another facility just outside of Fort Collins that's a farm that we also have greenhouse space as well as a large acreage to do outdoor testing on. And so this group is working diligently hard every day, looking for ways that we can now both bring new products to market as well as think about different methodologies to enhance yield and health of plants.
Matthew: How do you see your product line evolving over the next few years?
Gregg: I mean, we're really focused on bringing biological solutions to the market, and doing that in a manner that helps the grower, the farmer, the producer think through the entire life cycle of his grow. So all the way from clone all the way through harvest. And the products that we think about bringing to market have certainly maintain our view on biological solution, natural solution, and organic solution that's gonna help with this life cycle of the plant growth. So whether it's on clone and I think about products that are held with root growth and root mass and fast root development could be in terms of the early stage in terms of that cycle, obviously, as we think about the yield side of it and other ways to impact both yield enhancement as well as other cannabinoid impact that we might be able to have. So all the way through the life cycle is how we think about products that we can bring to market.
Matthew: Okay. And where are you in the fundraising process? Have you raised funds and where are you now?
Gregg: We have raised funds. We've gone through three different rounds of fundraising. We've been part of the ArcView community and have developed some very good relationships and friends through that community as well as a number of investors. We have some institutional investors that are involved in the cannabis space that have institutional funds as well as some large-scale of any offices that are also focused on both cannabis space as well as thinking of bringing biological solutions into the broader ag space.
Matthew: Okay, let's pivot to a few personal development questions to help listeners get a better sense of who you are personally. Is there a book that has had a big impact on your life or way of thinking that you'd like to share?
Gregg: Well, there's two actually that I would mention. One is called "The Starfish and the Spider."
Matthew: It's a great book. Great book.
Gregg: By Ori Brafman and Rod Beckstrom. So, this one's really interesting. It comes from a couple of different viewpoints in terms of hierarchy or non-hierarchal organizational structures, how to empower people in terms of moving an organization forward, and we've also sort of as we live in, especially in a world where so much is driven by social and digital, how those social webs are put together and how that sort of power of the network really drives opportunity and forward-thinking and innovation. And so that one is a book that is definitely giving me time to think about different ways to think about how to be innovative and creative and have our organization be forefronts and leader in our community for sure.
And the other book is "Legacy," it's by Dr. Barrie Greiff who was a professor at Harvard in the '60s and sort of was the father of psychology in the boardroom. And the book that he wrote, "Legacy," is based on a number of different L words and actually living your legacy, not waiting until you're gone to have your legacy be created around you. And the things that it talks about are loving, learning, laboring, laughing, lamenting, linking, living, leading, and leaving. And a lot of these have sort of personal implications to them. They also have implications across each of them in terms of how we think about an organization and creating community in an organization and team in an organization and connecting with community both internally and externally in terms of those people that we network with, our stakeholders, our customers, our partners, our vendors, our investors, our employees, etc. And so each of these core L words that Dr. Greiff talks about are things that we try and incorporate in the everyday component of our business and how we interact with our community around us.
Matthew: Okay. Sounds like a great book. Is there a tool, web-based or otherwise that you consider vital to your day-to-day productivity?
Gregg: There's a couple, and then obviously, as a startup I find myself definitely in engrossed in the day-to-day activities of the business 24/7. So in terms of staying connected to the world, I use two different things, one, is app called SmartNews which is sort of an aggregator of news and helps me understand lots of different places. Expresso is another one, which is the sort of a daily feed in the Economist Magazine, tell me and stay put in what's going on. That in terms of sort of operationally from day to day organizational things in terms of my own project management, I use Google Tasks as sort of a key way to keep me aligned with what I'm doing every day, not miss things. We use normal CRM from the businesssalesforce.com and these types of things. But Google Task really helps me to stay on point.
Matthew: One question I didn't ask that I was just kinda curious about. You probably talked to a lot of different growers that have different skill levels, different size grows. Do you see a big spectrum or dichotomy in terms of the growers that are really planning for efficiency and that are gonna take big leaps in terms of being able to grow at scale for a reduced cost versus maybe smaller artisan grows that aren't prepared for that? Is there a big spectrum you're seeing?
Gregg: Yeah, and I think that's a spectrum that we're seeing a widening spectrum that we're seeing in various parts of the country, that was this divergence, if you will, between a large scale industrial institutional large fund backed type of grows with multiple licenses all over the country, and how they're diving in on a very specific regime really focused on cost, really focused on producing as a lower cost as possible, and the artisan grower. And I think that evolution is one we're gonna continue to see. I like and it's what we've seen in the beer industry, as an example with large scale, these large-scale breweries, etc., and then the artisanal micro brew. And I think we're gonna see exactly the same thing and that divergence and how one thinks about the quality and the ability to get one's hands on artisan products versus the large institutional product. So obviously, as we stay state by state but as regulatory environments change and we're able to come across state lines, I think we're gonna see even more divergence on that artisan grow versus the large institutional facility.
Matthew: Great points. And the artisanal growers and smaller growers have to really have a narrative and experience that pulls people in in terms of getting them to feel good about paying more for what herb that is, like, "Hey, is this part of a family grow?" Is this one that has zero pesticides and is doing something regenerative for the ecosystem it's in, or just something that really helps the person feel good about why they're paying more and then the experience of the cannabis expect itself because it's something I think about a lot. I have the same experience as you where there's this massive amount of money coming into automation and doing things at scale and bringing a price per gram down. And those folks will probably do fine because they're just kind of they're leading the change, but then everybody else that's kind of doing it the same way they were. I'm a little bit concerned about them, especially if they're not investing in that narrative or that experience that helps people feel good about why they're choosing their product at a higher price. So I guess just throwing that out there for listeners.
Gregg: Yeah, man. And we see this in terms of what's the value proposition that people are looking towards us in terms of why they're utilizing our product. I think in these large institutional grows they're really focused on the fact that they have the strong yield enhancement benefit, and so therefore, without a lot of that added inputs on many different components; labor, utilities, nutrients, etc., and are able to produce more with the same amount of inputs, and therefore obviously that reduces their cost of production. And the other side on the artisanal grower, it's less about the yield, it's more about the fact we're an organic input. We're helping with the health of the plant. We're helping to cycle other organics that they're using more efficiently and effectively And so therefore for the artisanal side, it's really about what that input component is.
Matthew: Okay, great. So Mammoth, again, is an additive, not a nutrient that helps the nutrients to be more effective and make the plant more bio available so the nutrients can get in and not be wasted.
Gregg: Correct. And make those nutrients more bio available to the plant. You can always think of it like a probiotic for plants to a certain extent where we help to cycle those nutrients more effectively and efficiently.
Matthew: Okay. Well, Gregg, as we close, how can listeners find out more about Growcentia and Mammoth?
Gregg: You can find us on all of the social channels, #mammothmicrobes, website, mammothmicrobes.com is full of information, lots of FAQs, lots of growing tips, lots of information about the product and our technology. You can find us up on Facebook, obviously, and Twitter and LinkedIn and all these things. So check us out at mammothmicrobes.com or #mammothmicrobes.
Matthew: Gregg, thanks so much for coming on the show today, we really appreciate it.
Gregg: Thank you Matt, I really appreciate your time.
As overproduction of cannabis swamps some markets savvy entrepreneurs like Nicole Smith are digging in and focusing on creating value for their customers. Learn how Nicole is leading the charge at Evolab making the highest quality custom extraction and terpene creations.
– Overproduction in the Cannabis market
– Waiting for California to settle down
– New entrants making collaboration and camaraderie harder
– The competitive dynamics of vape cartridges
What are the 5 trends disrupting the cannabis industry?
Find out with this free cheat sheet at
Matthew: Today, we're going to hear from an entrepreneur that is differentiating her offering of cannabis-related products as consumers want more customization of their experience. I'm pleased to welcome Nicole Smith of Evolab to the show today. Nicole, welcome back to CannaInsider.
Nicole: Thank you so much for having me.
Matthew: Give us a sense of geography. Where are you in the world today?
Nicole: I am in Denver, Colorado today.
Matthew: Okay. And what is Evolab?
Nicole: Evolab is a pioneer of advanced extraction and processing technologies. They have been leading the development of pure and potent cannabis products for nearly a decade. And continuing on that, they recently launched CBx Sciences, which is a full line of products beyond vape that combine a variety of additional cannabinoids.
Matthew: Okay. I wanna dig into that. But just tell us a little bit about your transition from being the CEO of Mary's Medicinals since the last time you were on here to now going over to Evolab.
Nicole: Yeah. I was really excited to be approached by Evolab and asked to help them take the new brand, CBx Sciences, and those products to market, which is definitely in my sweet spot of cannabis medicine, which is a broad array of cannabinoids with other botanical elements.
Matthew: Now, I want to jump in, as I mentioned, into Evolab, but I think we need to do a little education here first. Everybody's familiar with CBD, but can you talk about some of the other cannabinoids that are gaining popularity and that you're working with so people can get a sense of what maybe CBN and CBG are and why you're using them?
Nicole: Yeah, of course. So we've always worked with the acidic versions of the cannabinoids, THCA and CBDA. Where applicable, they tend to have greater skin permeability and greater effect when applied topically. We, of course, use CBD, but then CBN as a muscle relaxant and also to help promote sleep. And CBG studies have shown that to be effective in not only in anti-inflammatory but also anti-microbial and anti-bacterial properties.
Matthew: Okay. So one of the anomalies with CBD is that it doesn't always respond to cannabinoid receptors. So CBG is, kind of, jumping in to fill that gap. Is that what I'm understanding?
Nicole: To some degree, yes. I mean, all of the cannabinoids tend to operate on different cannabinoid receptors or, in some cases, different receptors in the body altogether like the TRPV receptor, which is what CBD now is really being studied for in addressing pain.
Matthew: Okay. And I wanna dig into the extraction a little bit because to get these, kind of, outcomes that you have with cannabinoids and this customization that you're going for, you really have to know what you're doing with the extraction. Can you just tell us a little bit about the extraction operation and how you think about extraction?
Nicole: Yeah. As I mentioned, you know, Evolab is truly a pioneer in the industry. I don't know many companies with nearly a decade of experience and specifically in CO2 extraction. So we use CO2 to not only extract our cannabinoids and our important cannabis oils, but also to take the terpene profile from the plant off in the beginning of the process. And additionally, one of the things that makes this unique is that we also use other parts of the cannabis plant that we extract as our cutting agent or what we call our cannabis-derived cutting agent so that when we make our vape products, we're only putting cannabis in the cart.
Matthew: Okay. So let's just kinda run through all the things you're doing at Evolab. Can you tell us what FreshTerps are and why they're important?
Nicole: Yeah. FreshTerps is really the example or the epitome of what we really can do as a company. It's pulling that strain-specific profile off of the plant and offering that as a dabable product or somebody could add that maybe to a joint or something else, but it really is that key to what we do, which is take that strain profile off first.
Matthew: Okay. So if I were to take some FreshTerps and then just kinda dip some onto a joint before rolling it, what kind of experiences could I expect?
Nicole: Yeah, you're gonna get a really in-depth flavor profile. And you will influence whatever you're smoking to the direction of the strain that you selected in FreshTerps.
Matthew: Okay. So with FreshTerps is how do I kinda select my sensation? Does it go by terpenes like limonene or myrcene or does it go by kinda mood or how do you kind gauge what you're gonna experience?
Nicole: Yeah. So that's interesting. FreshTerps is really considered a connoisseur product. And so we don't do as much education in selecting the product, per se. We just leave it up to the connoisseur to select the strain of choice or flavor profile of choice.
Matthew: Okay. And what about Alchemy? What's that?
Nicole: So Alchemy is our premium cannabis oil with FreshTerps in our vape products.
Matthew: Okay. And how do you see people using that? What's important to know about that?
Nicole: Alchemy, again, the differentiator is that it's strain-specific. And, again, like I said, nothing but cannabis in the cartridge. It's a premium CO2 oil, very potent, very flavorful, and, just again, a great all-around vape product. I would really like to see more people smoking Alchemy than anything else, to be honest.
Matthew: So you kinda hit on a point there. You're saying it's pure cannabis oil. You know, with a vape cartridge or vape pen, there has to be some, like, a homogenous liquid that has some sort of viscosity so you can get over the atomizer and have the atomizer, you know, vaporize this. So how do you get the cannabis oil to be viscous in the right way so you have a good experience vaping? How does that work?
Nicole: Yeah. So that's one of the amazing things that Evolab has, again, pioneered, which is using only the cannabis plant. So we use a combination of terpenes and sequester terpenes that are derived from the plant extraction itself, to make our own proprietary cutting agent that we call CDCA. And that's what we use to create that viscosity as opposed to other cutting agents like PG or VG or even purchased terpenes.
Matthew: Okay. So that's very interesting. I see the market is somewhat moving to that way. So propylene glycol has, kind of, been the standard de facto for a long time, and it's somewhat controversial. Some people say it's nothing to worry about. Other people say it is something to worry about, but I think everybody would like to see us go to a natural solution. Is your cutting agent then, the natural terpenes? Does it allow it to be more liquid or is it more syrupy so you are getting something natural, but it's a little bit more syrupy, and it's maybe hard to move around or is it just as viscous as propylene glycol cutting agent?
Nicole: Yeah. So we work very hard to make sure that the product is viscous, but we also have worked to custom design our hardware to support the viscosity of the oil in the cart.
Matthew: Okay. And do you get any kind of feedback from the people using the cartridge and what they're saying? Are these high-end connoisseurs who are really into this or they're just casual users or is it kinda run the gamut?
Nicole: It really runs the gamut. I think it certainly depends on the type of product. So, of course, we make a Chroma, which is our base cannabis oil without the strain-specific terpenes, which is one of our most popular products, but then we also produce a colors product, which is with naturally-derived fruit flavors, which is the only exception to our only cannabis in the cart rule. And across that board, we really cater to the entire vape market with one type of product or another.
Matthew: And when you're developing these products, are you talking with dispensary owners or customers or are you really kinda doing the Apple computer model and you're just scratching your own itch, creating something that will delight you? Where does it kinda fall?
Nicole: No, absolutely. We definitely poll our consumers and our store managers and budtenders and store owners for feedback continually to help in the development process. And, of course, you know, our own product development team works, you know, very hard to make sure that it's a product, first and foremost, that they think they would appreciate. But yes, we definitely make sure that it's something that we know our consumers will appreciate. And we always take feedback in helping to make even better products.
Matthew: So when you go from concept then to finished product, there's some steps in between there. Are you showing people your target market like, "Hey, what do you think of this? What do you think of this now? What do you think of this now," or do you kinda take the initial feedback and then create a prototype and ask them what they think or what does that look like? I ask this because you're very savvy at marketing. And I don't think there's a lot of mistakes going on here. There's definitely a plan that looks very polished when you're done with it. And I'm just trying to understand how you arrive at it.
Nicole: Yeah. We certainly start with discussion, you know, and conversation and then we concept out the products. We test them internally. Of course, our employees make a great beta test group. And we have, you know, over 50 of them now. So that gives us a nice built-in test base. And if we can get them past the first couple of rounds of prototyping to something that we all collectively as a company feel strongly about, then yes, we'll take the prototypes out into the market and test them with family and friends and, as you mentioned, store owners and other people in the industry. And if at that point we feel that the product is strong, then yes, we put that marketing engine to work and create all of the collateral needed to launch the new product.
Matthew: And then in terms of coming up with a price point, how do you arrive at that? I mean, how sensitive is this market for vape cartridges and oils? I mean, you have a unique selling proposition here in terms of what you're doing with the natural cannabis oil blends and kinda the terpene profiles and such, but how do you arrive at the price points? Do you go for a little bit higher end or do you just try and get to the base of the pyramid of as many customers as possible? How do you think about it?
Nicole: Yeah, we definitely don't use situations like that to determine pricing. We tend to use the cost of goods that goes into the cart and then, you know, the margin so the company survives. Really we're basing products and pricing to suit as many people as possible. As you know, it's a highly competitive market. Vape is the most competitive market, but I've never believed in price gouging, but I also believe in supporting the industry. And companies that tend to just try to feed at the bottom of the barrel in order to build a customer base don't last in the industry very long either. So pricing is definitely a very strategic play in the industry because you have to stay healthy as an organization, but you also have to support your customers and your patients and ensure that they are getting high-quality products at an affordable price.
Matthew: How about Ihit? What is Ihit?
Nicole: Ihit is our disposable vape hardware. So it's a 250-milligram disposable product that doesn't need recharged.
Matthew: Okay. And it comes charged already. So you're ready to go.
Nicole: Yeah. You're ready to go.
Matthew: And in terms of popularity, which is the most popular of these? Is the Ihit the most popular, the Alchemy, the FreshTerps? Where does it all lie?
Nicole: So Chroma, which is our standard 80% THC cart, is still by far our flagship product. And in terms of hardware, our folks still tend to lean towards the 500-milligram carts.
Matthew: Okay. And why do you think there's such a big focus on terpenes right now? I talk about terpenes a lot, but what's your take on terpenes?
Nicole: I think terpenes are just very understudied. Again, as the cannabis industry is evolving, of course, cannabis and cannabinoids have continued to be studied, but terpenes are still very nascent. And what we do know is that they're the building blocks of cannabinoids. And as that, we know that there's a benefit to the terpenes that is just really uncovered. Some people talk about entourage effect and some of these other things, which I think terpenes play a critical role. But what we do know is things like beta-caryophyllene not only is a terpene, but also is a CB1 antagonist or an axis [SP] cannabinoid I should say, right?
Matthew: Okay. And why is that important for someone that's not familiar with some of those terms?
Nicole: It's important because it's increasing the efficacy of the medicine or the cannabis medicine that they're consuming.
Matthew: Okay. Now the vape cartridge, I, kind of, stuck on this topic because if you would look at, let's say, BDS analytics or some of these dispensary data companies, the vape cartridge is such a huge part of it, not only from the profit piece, but also in California, which is now we're starting to get data. And there's just so much vape cartridge sales that it's amazing. And when I think where we were just a couple of years ago and where we are now, it makes me wonder where are we going? I mean, where do you think the vape cartridge market's gonna be two years from now because two years ago, it was just like propylene glycol. There was very few companies that were saying, "Oh, you can use terpenes as cutting agents and you don't need the propylene glycol." And it's really evolved into a much more natural vape cartridge or at least having those options. So where do we go from here?
Nicole: Yeah. I think quite simply it's just much higher consumer standards. I think that customers just aren't going to tolerate low quality or plastics or cutting agents anymore. I think as the industry is evolving and products are becoming better, I also think that customers are becoming more educated and making smarter choices, as well.
Matthew: Yeah. I don't know if the market's there yet. Maybe you can tell me, but, you know, when I drink a Coca-Cola, I know it's like exactly the same every time no matter where I am in the world. It tastes exactly the same. How far away do you think we are from just getting that just completely dialed in where the experience is 100% identical with no variance from time to time?
Nicole: You know, I think we're gonna be a ways away from that. First and foremost, I mean, it's very difficult, as you know or as I know, to make a product in multiple states that you can't, you know, transport across state lines to have manufacturing in multiple facilities or multiple states. It's certainly a challenge, although we've been working to actually be able to make things like our cannabis drive cutting agent and some of our technologies available to other places to ensure quality products or the same type of product is being produced in different states.
Matthew: Now, I was just reading this past week that it's by some estimates in Oregon that they think there is gonna be three times as much cannabis produced as the market demands. And as we start to see some of these distortions of a market coming into the public for the first time, it's really important to have a sharp edge as an entrepreneur and do something differently because I was worried about what's happening now starting to happen in terms of people that are just 'me too' entrepreneurs. They're not doing anything different. All of a sudden, they're finding themselves lowering their price, lowering their price, because they don't have a unique offering. And it's no fun to be the in that position, to have no margin. So how do you think about this as you look and see what's happening in the cannabis marketplace and how to be different because you're always, kind of, trying new things and novel approaches? I mean, are you starting to look at markets and see overproduction and maybe too many entrepreneurs come in where there might be a flush-out? And how do you generally think about this?
Nicole: Yeah. I mean, certainly in terms of cultivation, we predicted this happening, you know, many years ago, as we saw that that was really everybody's first place, you know, or first thought is, "I'm gonna get in the cannabis industry and I'm going to grow cannabis." And so there's been a lot of investment, particularly in cultivation. So we do see that overproduction. I do think that productization is truly the way that cannabis entrepreneurs will win in the industry. So yes, unique formulations and novel products and meeting the demands of the cannabis consumer will always reign supreme in that arena, but certainly, yes, there is a ton of competition. It is very difficult for companies to weigh out folks that are willing to price gouge essentially, or not price gouge, but flood the market with an expensive product simply to stay alive. But the reality is those companies just won't be there much longer. And companies like ours, like I said, nearly a decade in the industry, continue to be the mainstay for customers. And, you know, we look to continue to do that. But yes, it certainly is a problem. And it is something I think that just time will really start to adjust and level out.
Matthew: Yeah. And where can people buy Evolab products now, Alchemy and Chroma and Colors and Ihit?
Nicole: Yeah. Right now, just in Colorado. And you can find all of the products or where they're being sold on our website at evolab.com.
Matthew: Now, when you look at California and it's just such a big market, do you have any general thoughts about it in terms of what's going on there and you're looking at it? And how do you compare and contrast it to Colorado?
Nicole: I think that it's chaos, to be honest. And I think that it would be...I don't even think it's organized chaos at the moment. I think that it will be quite a while before that market finds its level. And I think that there's an immense amount of competition that, like we were just discussing, is going to strangle each other out over the coming years here for sure.
Matthew: And one thing I've noticed is that when the industry was much smaller and, kind of, raging against the man or the government that was making it illegal, there was kind of this Kumbaya. Everybody was in arms together working to create this industry. But now, it seems a little bit like it's turning into a more competitive model where once was like, "Hey, this was a friendly collaboration in this community," I'm seeing... I wouldn't say anybody's unfriendly, but it's getting more competitive is my observation. Do you see that at all or is it just me?
Nicole: No, it's certainly become more competitive. I would say that what I would call industry pioneers or folks that have been in the industry for many years still have that sense of friendly collaboration, which is nice, but certainly as new folks come in and new money and outside companies and I think also folks that don't have maybe the same understanding or longevity, there certainly is a cut-throat competition there.
Matthew: Okay. Let's pivot to some personal development questions, Nicole. I wanna ask you some questions that would help listeners get a better sense of who you are personally. With that, is there a book that has had a big impact on your life or your way of thinking that you'd like to share?
Nicole: I think probably one of the biggest is, "The Emperor Wears No Clothes."
Matthew: Okay. And why is that?
Nicole: I think certainly it was one of the first books I read as I was investigating and getting into the cannabis industry. And, of course, really understanding why cannabis was made illegal in the first place is definitely a very motivating factor to wanna work against that corruption that made it illegal in the first place.
Matthew: Now, who wrote that book? I think I know, but I'm trying to remember.
Nicole: Jack Herer.
Matthew: Right. Right. That's right. Jack Herer, a famous kinda activist.
Matthew: Yeah. And how about...is there a tool, web-based or otherwise, that you consider vital to your productivity?
Nicole: Oh, my gosh. We've integrated so many in the last few months, but I think probably for just team collaboration, we do almost everything on Basecamp nowadays. We don't send any internal company email. Everything all goes through this collaboration tool called Basecamp.
Matthew: That's a great tool. I'm also big fans of the founders, David Heinemeier Hansson and Jason Fried. They have a great book called "Rework" about how they work, which is really incredible, those two. So I would also suggest that. So that's really cool. Now, you always seem like you've got so much going on, so much you're trying to do and accomplish in such a short period of time. Any advice on how to stay sane and keep your priorities straight and, you know, have fun along the way?
Nicole: You know, I think what was successful for me and it probably isn't for everyone is I've just figured out how to integrate work basically into everything I do, right? I don't try to box work hours or when I, you know, accomplish things into a set timeframe of the day. I just, kind of, allow those things to happen. I find, you know, inspiration maybe early in the morning or very late at night, but I find if I just continually am open to just getting things done, then everything seems to find its own balance.
Matthew: Well, Nicole, as we close, how can listeners find Evolab online and in dispensaries?
Nicole: Yeah, of course. So www.evolab.com. Of course, E-V-O-L-A-B .com.
Matthew: Great. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show and educating us Nicole. And we wish you all the best.
Nicole: Thank you so much.
Why grow huge gardens of cannabis plants when you take gene samples of the cannabis compounds you want and grow them in yeast? This is the argument Kevin Chen of Hyasynth Bio presents.
– Kevin’s scientific education and background
– Growing cannabis compounds in yeast
– Why growing whole plants in 12 weeks when you can grow compounds in 1 week
– The most desirable cannabis compounds clients are asking for
– Why the future of cannabis is in laboratory, not a grow
Learn more at
What are the five trends that are disrupting the cannabis industry?Find out with your free cheat sheet at https://www.cannainsider.com/trends
While many in the cannabis industry are looking for new and more efficient ways to grow, some biohackers with biology and chemistry backgrounds are creating new ways to access the essence of the cannabis plant without growing a full plant. Here to tell us more is Kevin Chen of Hyasynth Bio. Kevin, welcome to CannaInsider.
Kevin: Hi, yeah, great to be on the podcast.
Matthew: Okay. Well, give us a sense of geography. Where are you in the world today?
Kevin: We're based in Montreal, Canada, which is pretty cold right now, it's the winter time and, yeah, but it's a nice city. I like it a lot.
Matthew: Yeah. There's some dish there with like potatoes and cheese curds or something like that that people love. What's that all about?
Kevin: Yeah. The potato is something that is definitely here and you can get it in large quantities and there's some pretty good stuff around here, too. It's not necessarily a delicacy, but some people think of it as that. But it is a great fruit to have after a long night of partying or maybe on a cold winter day for example.
Matthew: Yeah. It looks good. It looks like a real comfort food. So it's like potato, it's like French fries, gravy, and like a cheese curd, which sounds gross but actually, it looks really good.
Kevin: Yup. And you can get that in all kinds of sizes and in all kinds of flavors and with that I mean cheese curds and gravy is the most basic one and then the most, you know, you can get into stuff that has smoked meat on it or it has stuff that is more like Mexican theme or there's salsa and avocados on it and then, yeah, pretty much whatever you want on fries, you can probably find it around here.
Matthew: Oh, good. Hey, at a very high level, what is Hyasynth Bio, so people can get a sense of what you're doing?
Kevin: Yup. So what we're doing is we're looking at engineering strains of yeast that will then be able to produce the cannabinoids like THC and another thing is in Cannabidiol, of course, CBD. And so our goal is to not have to depend on growing plants to make these compounds and also to be able to produce a wider range of compounds in the plants, it can do just on its own. So there's all kinds of different reasons for why this is important in the industry and, you know, from looking at it from our perspective and being up in Canada, we have maybe different scene than in the U.S., but in general, across the cannabis industry, there are a lot of questions of quality and of scale and if you're developing more serious therapeutics, and the FDA doesn't necessarily like that you're growing it from cannabis, they have certain regulations around that. So we're hoping to address a lot of these questions by changing the manufacturing system from, you know, depending on these plants and these big fields that have all these quality issues to something that's much more like a pharmaceutical manufacturing process.
Matthew: That's really interesting. We'll get into more detail there, but first what's your background? How did you come to have this idea and what's your education that allows you to think this way?
Kevin: Yeah. So my background is in biochemistry and I started on this track just by, I mean, started by being enthusiastic about genetic engineering in general, and that came from doing a undergraduate competition called the International Genetically Engineered Machine competition which is, kind of, like an engineering design competition where you're building like a boat or a car but instead, in this case, you're building organisms that do all kinds of different things, maybe it's just all for the environmental problem or maybe it's to make a certain product. Anyways that was, you know, several years ago that I first got enthusiastic about genetic engineering and about working in small teams on very, you know, problem solution focused projects
And so after that experience, I really wanted to keep doing that kind of thing where I'm working on projects that have very specific, you know, goals and impact and that work in a very fast pace. And so my longer story short, did an undergrad degree in biochemistry and started master's degree then started a company, and withdrew from the master's degree just to focus on that company since it master a lot of my interest and what I wanted to do, you know, in science and in general.
Matthew: Now, are you familiar with this CRISPR/Cas9 genome editing technology that's kind of emerging?
Kevin: Yup. That is all the rage now and it's super fascinating to, you know, watch that unfold and I mean, not just from, like, you know, how we could use it in our genetic engineering at work, but also how, you know, lots of other people can use it and there's some people pushing boundaries in terms of human experiments and that's super interesting to see as well because it's kind of pushing that, you know, limits of sci-fi and everything and it's more of a problem for the FDA and negative than it is for me personally, but I've got some friends who are like very into that scene and it's super fascinating.
Matthew: Yeah. The FDA is kind of slow on picking up on new technologies, it seems. Tell me, how do you understand the CRISPR/Cas9 because I want people to be able to understand what that is because it's this emerging technology that has huge impacts and it's being used now as we speak, but I don't, it's not really covered in mainstream media and people don't really understand it. It's kind of emerging and it's hard to digest what's happening, so maybe you could just give us an overview for the layperson.
Kevin: Yeah. So simply put, it has to do with editing genomes in general. So there's a few different ways that you can modify an organism but if you want to make that modification permanent, then you want it to be in the genome of that organism. So I think of, let me see if there's an example that comes to mind. If I just think of, like, let's say, engineering humans, and this is a case for using this technology, in cystic fibrosis, let's say, where it's a very specific mutation in the person's genome that causes them to have cystic fibrosis. If you had a way to edit the person's genome to remove that mutation, then suddenly they'll be healthy again. They don't need to have any kind of transplants or use very intense drugs. Their body will just naturally be the same as it would if they didn't have that mutation. And so that, I mean, the CRISPR itself, the reason why it's so interesting is that we've always been able to do a lot of gene editing and genome editing to some extent, but the CRISPR/Cas system helps make it a lot more precise where you're editing very specific points of a genome and you can do that with at least enough consistency that, you know, one can imagine using this at large scales.
So historically, there was a case, and I'm being tested on my timeline now. I'm gonna say the 1980s, 1990s, where the gene therapy was first becoming a thing and they had to use viruses to, you know, take fragments of DNA and distribute them throughout the human body and it ended up being that one of the patients that was being tested with this, you know, viral DNA transfer technique ended up dying because of complications from that virus. And so that was a big, you know, negative impact on gene editing and now it's all coming back again because now we have these new techniques and they're gonna be more precise and we can actually have a lot more options for how we want to do genetic modifications to a human being or to another animal or to a plant or to a microbe if you want to make, yeah, make a microbe, make a bunch of THC for example. And that's basically it. So I mean CRISPR/Cas is like the specific name for the system. I like to call it all just like genome editing technologies and there's other ones that exist, too, that are also pretty revolutionary and CRISPR doesn't always work in every single organism, but the idea here is that genome editing and having a genetic engineering being a lot easier thanks to this system this is what's happening.
Matthew: Okay. Now, let's circle back to what you're doing at Hyasynth Bio, but I want to frame this and paint a picture of what you're doing in the lab and how it's different or better than a traditional grower because there's people listening and they're saying, "Hey, well, you know, we have our grow all optimized and everything and, yeah, but it's 10,000 square feet and it requires all these inputs." How is what you're doing different or better than what a traditional cannabis grower might be doing?
Kevin: Yeah. It's physically different in the way that we're not really growing any plants. So we've got a pretty small lab and what we're growing is cultures of yeast. So we have either glass or stainless steel tanks that grow the...that you actually put the, you know, grow the yeast in. And each of these tanks looks maybe a bit like, you know, what you'd see if you were visiting a microbrew facility where there's, you know, some pipes that go in, some pipes that go out, and you're feeding different kinds of materials at different times of the process and keeping it all at the right temperature to actually grow the yeast that you want. And so that's what our process looks like physically. And what that means is that, you know, the yeast grows a lot faster than a plant so where it's actually like, you know, one-week turnaround to actually grow a yeast strain up to its full, you know, volume. Whereas with plants it's more like a few months. And then, yeah, there's not a whole lot of like, you know, green in our space. It's like you'd have a big room and a big stainless steel tank and that's kind of where you'd be producing your yeast and then you have a lot more, I think in general we'd have a lot more knobs and buttons that would go into the system just because there's some like finer points of control and this has been like, you know, inside a pharmaceutical like GMP manufacturing for such a long time that that's how things are done with this kind of technology. Whereas with the cannabis you can sometimes maybe just grow it in like a pot and then you're not really trying that many knobs and buttons but you're controlling the environments, I guess.
Kevin: But that's kind of how, yeah, how this would go.
Matthew: So people are I'm sure still scratching their head like, "Okay, Kevin is growing yeast and he's got a cannabis culture in here. Why yeast and what's the output of this? What does this do for people that want cannabis material, or is this allow them to do?" Can you talk about that a little?
Kevin: Yeah. So this allows people to produce something like CBD or THC or another cannabinoid at pretty large scales. So you can choose which cannabinoid you want and in what quantity or if you want a combination then that's possible, too. And then you can also scale this up to volumes that would be enough to treat, you know, millions of people who might have a certain disease or need a very specific combination of cannabinoids. And those are the main, you know, two things that this does and you can have that process be like pretty consistent in high quality, you know, GMP, whatever you want. But the key idea here is that, you know, we can choose what our yeast makes, you know, very precisely. And then that process scales up to actually, you know, supplying an entire country or population that is in the millions whereas you haven't seen that much of that in interest of cannabis.
Matthew: Yes. So this is pretty interesting here because you're isolating the one part of the plant you want and then, let's say, a typical grow cycle is 12 weeks for a plant, you're doing it much more efficiently in one week and getting exactly what you want from the plant. Now, there's people that are listening that are saying, "Well, the entourage effect, you know it's how these cannabinoids work together and interplay to create medicinal output or result." But you're saying you can create that in the lab, in the yeast, you can get that entourage effect. You can create whatever kind of tissue culture or plant culture you want and then put it in the yeast and just grow it in a way that orders of magnitude more efficient, is that correct?
Kevin: Yes, except we're not really growing any kind of tissue of the plant, like, it's just that this grows and it makes cannabinoids and it has all the parts in its genome that are going to produce the cannabinoids. And that's, but, yeah, that's pretty much it, like, we're looking at shorter processing times and being able to make for a specific products, and that's our interest.
Matthew: Okay. So what happens to the yeast then after you get your desired output? Is your output's in the yeast or is the yeast go away somehow? How does that work?
Kevin: Yup. Our output isn't the yeast but we extract a product from the yeast so at that point maybe it starts to look a lot more like what plant growers would do with their, you know, oil production, for example, where, yeah, they're taking a whole lot of plant material, they're mixing it with some kind of solvent maybe that's in oil and then they...or I guess supercritical CO2 is the most popular one that people talk about and you can probably use that same, exact same process for a yeast culture and then still get the same kinds of products out. And so in the end product you're not really...it's not like we're selling the yeast and it has all these, you know, other stuff in it where we're isolating the pure cannabinoids and then that's what would go into an oil or into a pill or into some other product that could go to market.
Matthew: Okay. And how many compounds are you focusing on right now and why did you choose the ones that you are focusing on?
Kevin: So right now we're mainly focused on the cannabinoids that are...and of on or on their way to the market, so like THC and CBD, of course, and then CBG is another target that we're after. The reason why we chose those is partly from like a technology standpoint, like, it would be easier for us to go for those ones than to go for the more like extremely rare ones that haven't really been discovered that much of. But in terms of like where our breadth extends, like, we might end up producing a lot more of these minor cannabinoids than producing the major ones. And so we're not necessarily that interested in producing THC because you can get that pretty easily from plants, but we would be pretty interested in producing something like THCv or CBDv or CBN where it's like not really a plant product and so we can make it definitely more efficiently and be able to serve, you know, people who actually need these materials in larger quantities.
Matthew: Okay. When you say larger quantities, what kind of quantities do you anticipate your customers or your current customers wanting?
Kevin: That ranges from maybe like a few grams if you're a registered university and you want to do something like mouse studies, for example, up to a hundreds or even thousands of kilograms if you're going for like a big pharmaceutical indication. So I think if you do a bit of math around the epilepsy case of like CBD or CBDv that GB Pharmaceuticals is developing, if you look at epilepsy as a whole and if we could treat, you know, everybody that had epilepsy with cannabis, then that's something like 50 million people worldwide. And if each person is using X milligrams per day of a certain product, it ends up coming out to pretty close to like 1500 tons or something crazy like that.
And yeah, when you think about those, you know, quantities and even like, I think, the biggest single growth operation is maybe that's actually running is one or two tons and that is now coming up to maybe tens of tons if you look at the biggest ones. But then that's still making, you know, orders of magnitude too small for this kind of, you know, broad and massive population. So that's kind of the, yeah, the range that we're looking at where it's like, you know, very specific high-quality products that research can use and then on the higher end of things like, you know, these massive supply chains that would be amazing, you know, to supply and to be able to meet that need.
Matthew: Okay. And is there companies that are like nutraceutical companies that are saying, "Hey, I need to add CB, let's say, CBD into some sort of finished product like, let's just say, a protein powder or a hemp protein or something," and they need a certain amount, is that a prospective customer base do you think?
Kevin: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And we've been in touch with a lot of different people in the industry across like, yeah, pharmaceutical and recreational and nutritional as well, of course, so we kind of, we understand like different aspects of marketing, what they're looking for. So that case in particular is pretty interesting for us where, yeah, we can definitely just provide CBD at the larger scales for nutritional products and probably do that in a much more consistent and reliable way than what you can get from hemp because I know that that's one of the biggest issues with the hemp source CBD, is that sometimes it's, you know, maybe it's coming from Europe or maybe it's coming from China or maybe it's coming from somewhere else and then in the end, maybe there isn't that much CBD in it after you buy the actual product or maybe there's like way more than what the label actually says. And so there's some weird issues in that industry that needs to be resolved and we think we can solve them.
Matthew: Yeah. Or just the volume of hemp you need to get down to that CBD oils may seem oppressively large to some people.
Matthew: So you mentioned that the cannabis industry is approaching you, pharma, any other industries that are looking at what you're doing and saying, "Hey, this might be able to help us."
Kevin: That pretty well covers it. There's some stuff coming up in the veterinary sciences as well. And I think there's at least a few different researchers or studies or talk about, you know, people using CBD with their pets and maybe it could also be used in an agricultural setting as well for, I mean, there's something like antimicrobial stuff but also behavioral related issues that sometimes come up, I'm not asking, like, "Are you familiar with industrial agriculture and growing animals at large scales?" But there are at least some talk of that, too. Yeah. And that's super interesting. I like to see this, you know, it's a newer idea and I think it has a lot of, like, potential and so I'm super interested in learning more about that.
Matthew: Have you been following what's going on with this company called Memphis Meats that's raised, they've raised a ton of money and they're creating, I guess you would call this...they're creating animal proteins in like a Petri dish essentially without actually having to kill animals to get their meat. Have you heard anything about that?
Kevin: Yeah, for sure. That's like the same scene that we're part of and, yeah, generally, the term that people use for this technology is cellular agriculture. For us, we fall under a few different terms whether that's like synthetic biology or metabolic engineering or cellular agriculture. But the cellular agriculture scene consists a lot of, you know, that kind of technology where it's like we're gonna use this biotechnology technique to produce a food product that normally comes from animal. And so, yeah, Memphis Meats is a great example of exactly that where it's all about, you know, let's get a petri dish that will grow a hamburger or grow a meatball, I guess was their first thing. And yet, it's capital intensive. It takes a lot of money to get that to, you know, produce that like a relevant price point because I think the first one that got made, like, whatever, a few years back, was a few hundred thousand dollars and now it's still maybe $10,000 for a hamburger that was produced this way and they're pushing that limit of price. But yeah, it takes capital and...but once it gets up to that kind of scale that can compete with industrial, you know, growing of cows, that should happen pretty soon and it will be super interesting to see how that unfolds.
Matthew: Yeah. I mean it's kind of a chicken and the egg problem in that customers probably are a little bit standoffish about lab grown meats, but if they can get the palatability right, it could be a big win-win for everybody. These animals wouldn't have to die. We don't have to have all these, you know, all these waste around, you know, agriculture and animal husbandry and so forth, so...
Matthew: ...it sounds a little weird in some ways, but I think this is definitely the future.
Kevin: Yeah, it does. And I think it is for sure. And having spent enough time around that scene, like, the more weird thing or this to me it feels more weird to talk about how viable industrial agriculture actually is where it's like, "Okay, we're gonna grow, you know, this many millions of cows in this way and then we're gonna have these machines that will slaughter them for us and then we'll have these people that are gonna cut them open and do this oil processing." And you're gonna run that at that large scales like that, and then, yeah, it seems almost more alien to me than like, you know, why don't we just use biotechnology to make the stuff and then that sounds way, way simpler even though it's, you know, the lab idea is a bit foreign, but I think the idea of industrial agriculture is also...and what actually happens there is very disconnected from what people will actually, you know, buy on the shelf. Like, I don't think that many people are aware of, you know, the issues that do come up and why it's so cheap to buy chicken from the store whereas if you thought about growing your chicken yourself, it'd be like really difficult.
Yeah. But anyway, that's kind of an interesting side issue that I think people should be more aware there like, you know, production methods and where their products are actually coming from and what kind of work goes into it, and the impact that it has on the rest of the planet. And then suddenly all these technologies that industrial agricultural build upon don't make that much sense and the technologies that are coming up now, like the cellular agriculture make a lot of sense. And they're extremely cost-efficient and extremely efficient for the environment and so on.
Matthew: It seems like every industry is right for disruption now, nothing is secure anymore so you got to disrupt yourself before you get disrupted, so...
Matthew: You're in the right field here. Okay, so is what you're doing at Hyasynth Bio, is that patentable and do you have any patents right now you applied for?
Kevin: Yup. So we do have a patent application in and in terms of our...and our process is overall patentable. And beyond that there's sometimes that I can say publicly about, you know, what our patents look like and our strategy right now aside from that, but it is interesting to look at the patent landscape for cannabis and for cannabinoids in general and there's, you know, on one hand, a lot of potential for new technologies and new patents to come out. On the other hand, there's kind of these regulatory conflicts where it's sort of hard to develop a new technology because you need maybe clearance and you also can't necessarily patent your strains of cannabis yet because the FDA or the, I guess the...is still like an illegal substance in some sense.
So, yeah, that's the situation and I mean, one thing that we are super keen on is looking at, you know, what areas of specific formulations and combinations of cannabinoids will make sense and what IP or patents could be developed around those because, of course, for, you know, if you're following the rules of nutritional pharma which a lot of people have different opinions on that, I'm not sure how your listeners feel about like big pharma and how evil or good they are.
But if you follow those rules then they have a lot of value in being able to patent their products and the culminations and the structures that they want to bring to market. And I think that, you know, when it comes to cannabis and cannabinoids there shouldn't be that much resistance towards, you know, that because that's what it leads to like the big cures and that's what leads to, you know, GW Pharmaceuticals Epidiolex product and that's the next product that they brought to market a while ago and so, you know, that's something that we would be able to do better than people who are just trying to breed new strains, let's say.
Matthew: Yeah. And how do you think what you're doing might be able to help the opioid crisis if it all?
Kevin: Yeah. I should hope that the crisis is resolved by the time we get to market and get up to that kind of scale. But assuming that the opioid crisis does stick around for another few years, I mean, we know that in quite a lot of cases people are reducing their consumption of either opioids or other prescription drugs when they've started using medical cannabis. And I can probably follow-up with some references around this specifically, but this is quite a few different companies in Canada that do, you know, sell large amounts of product legally, like, this is what they've been noticing. And, you know, if that's the case and that ends up being true for a lot of cases and people are getting relief on that then, you know, it would be amazing if we could divert, you know, 50% of the opioids that are going to market and replace those with cannabinoids which are more safe and less addictive. And then, like, it seems like a lot of the cause of the opioid crisis is because of like, you know, pretty generous prescribing of opioids where if you have like, you know, just some mild pain, maybe then you're getting prescribed an opioid and you don't really need it. But it's there if you want to use it, but if we can prescribe a cannabinoid in that case and have, you know, similar kind of relief for a lot of those cases, then we only need to prescribe opioids in the very extreme cases where they will be more useful than a cannabinoid. But pain is also a very complicated disease and it's hard to, you know, develop anything that just treats pain. Yeah.
Matthew: Yeah. Especially, you know, Tom Petty just died and they said, I don't know if you saw that but it looked like he had some opioids in his body and so forth. It's pretty much the same type of situation as Prince. And it's like, wow, how much of this is going on and it's just a huge, huge problem, so I hope it gets resolved. Now, tell us, Kevin, where are you in the investing process or raising capital, should I say? Where are you in that process with Hyasynth?
Kevin: Yup. So we did our second seed round at the end of last year in November and so with that wrapped up, we haven't opened a new round yet, but we're setting this up and thinking about, you know, what that's gonna look like and who we want to bring on our investors. And so we'd be looking at maybe in a few months or towards the middle of this year to open up for another round of funding and by that point, you know, we'd be looking at a larger series, a kind of round that's we're really, you know, bringing products to market and scaling up.
Matthew: Okay. Now, if there's accredited investors that are listening that are interested in investing, is there a way they can reach out to you or Hyasynth in general?
Kevin: Yup. They can just write to me directly or write to the, I guess we have a generic email address which is email@example.com and that goes to someone on my team if not directly to me. It goes directly to me now because that's how we're a small company and I'm the one that receives those emails, and but otherwise that's the fastest and easiest way for people to reach out.
Matthew: So that's hyasynthbio.com?
Kevin: That's correct.
Matthew: Okay. And, you know, there's a lot of...you're a young guy yourself, do you mind me asking how old you are?
Kevin: Yeah. I am 26.
Matthew: Yeah. Well done, kudos to you for hitting the books and making all these happen at such a young age. I was not a 26 thinking this seriously about stuff. So how about interns? I mean, there's a lot of young people that are really interested in getting involved in this industry and maybe they're saying, "Hey, it's still early in the year 2018, is there a way I could intern at some place like Hyasynth Bio or do you look for interns in the summer or at any time?" Are you only drafting from like the McGill University area there in Montreal, or is there anything that you could say around that?
Kevin: Yup. So we're still figuring what we want to do this summer if we want to bring on summer interns this time around or not. But at any given time, like, people can send us any notes to that same address and we'll keep it in our hiring logs and when the next opportunity for hiring comes up then it'll get busted out to those people. Or if we do find, you know, specific people that we really want to bring on, maybe not right now but maybe in the nearest future, then it's always good to have that Rolodex lined up so that we're not, you know, we don't have to go out and do a lot of promotions for our own recruitments. And in general, it's great to just hear from people and hear about what their interests are and always happy to connect. Yeah.
Matthew: Let's pivot to some personal development questions. I like to ask a few personal development questions to help listeners get a better sense of who you are personally. With that, is there a book that has had a big impact on your life or way of thinking that you'd like to share?
Kevin: Yeah, for sure. There's a few that are out there that I came to mind and a few that are in the same category. There's one that's called "Future Perfect" from Steven Johnson and then also a book called "Abundance" and a book called "Bold" that are from Peter Diamandis and Steven Kotler and a few...have you read this one?
Matthew: I've read all of those.
Kevin: Okay, cool.
Matthew: They're great.
Kevin: Yeah. So they're super interesting just because it's, I mean on one hand they do subscribe to the...they're intense like, you know, hype of a lot of startups and a Silicon Valley kind of thing which there's pros and cons to that sort of logic. But on the other hand it is proposing like very different ways of thinking about starting business and solving problems and using what's available to you in more unique ways and embracing that we do live on a very connected planet which means that, you know, if I wanted to tomorrow, I could do a face to face, like, video call with somebody in India and figure out how we're going to, you know, supply the next big medication for disease areas there for example, and that's like perfectly reasonable to say like right now but that was not, it's just not possible, like, you know, 10, 20 years ago or it's like much weren't heard of, and it's...on the topic of cannabis, it's also really interesting to see a lot of different kind of companies, like, I mean, you've heard Modern...it turned up Modern Meadow, thinking about...yeah, Meadow MD on your show, and there's HelloMD which is another company in California, it's dealing with the interesting stuff, and websites like Leafly and Lyft who are creating communities and promoting and creating these networks where you can find places to buy products or get reviews, and even though it's still kind of legal, this is the world that we live in. It's like this is how connected we are. And there's a lot of stuff where you can learn and embrace by using these kinds of technologies. So those books, I think are really, really interesting for that.
Matthew: Yeah. I really, I would say "Abundance," I read "Abundance" first then "Bold" and they really had an impact on me in terms of getting across how poorly our primate mind understands exponential growth and that after a period of not growing in an exponential way there's all these technologies that are coming together at once that are going into this hockey stick moment where they're just growing exponentially because exponential growth curves are kind of tricky. They sneak up on you. At first, they just look, you know, a little bit like linear growth but then all of a sudden it's, you know, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64 and it's just going straight up like a rocket ship and, you know, I think we're starting to see some of that with the fields you're in, you know, also a 3D printing, also AI. They're all coming together at once and people are, kind of, they're lulled into a sense of complacency because they're thinking, "Oh, I've heard about AI here for a decade or two and nothing has really changed." And then in the next five, seven years, it's, you know, it's gonna level industries that we thought would never change are gonna be gone, just gone.
Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and it's amazing, it's great to have people think more in that way, I think overall and whether you're an entrepreneur or if you're running like, you know, Fortune 500 company it's important to, you know, embrace like this is what technology allows us to do and we can use technology in so many different ways to solve our problems and, you know, the...like, the examples that they give you sometimes are like Airbnb and Uber and stuff where it's like, "Okay, now, if I had this car and some spare time I can go and drive people around and make money off of it and that's just a very simple piece of software that does that.
And now, with, I guess the other weird thing that's coming up is the cryptocurrency scene which I don't want to get to in depth about, but that's kind of its own weird and interesting technology scene that aims to somewhat revolutionize how financial transactions might be done. And that, you know, we'll see what that looks like in the next like two, three years.
Matthew: What's funny is that even before a company like an Airbnb or Uber could potentially go public they could start to get disrupted by a blockchain company that says, "We do Airbnb but as a blockchain token and we've disintermediated Airbnb, they're making 15% profit, let's say, let's take that down to 1.5% and all participants in the ecosystem would get the value from that instead of it being so lopsided to an Airbnb or Uber."
Kevin: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It'll be of interesting to see how that unfolds. I mean in the end to some extent with those cases it is still software that has to drive it and some of these has to pay for, I mean, the service maybe and for some kind of validation but, yeah, it will be interesting to see, you know, what sticks around and where we are in the hype cycle and I guess, you know, maybe we are at the peak level of hype for this kind of stuff and then it'll dry up in the next year and then come back again with more real stuff. But it's at least, you know, it's worth paying attention because it is kind of different and it is probably, you know, maybe to some extent this is how my parents or grandparents felt when the internet came out where it's like the internet is now a thing and they can, you know, look at websites and get all this information suddenly and it kind of changes how people run businesses and do all kinds of stuff. And in the next five years maybe you'll be that kind of person where you're like looking at cryptocurrencies and its suddenly, like, everything uses cryptocurrencies for some reason and you don't fully understand it or you get into it now and then maybe you're part of that technology that grows very quickly. Yeah.
Matthew: Yeah. It's definitely interesting. I feel like there's a lot of hype around it, but there's no applications that everybody is really using yet but they're...except where I'll say the ICO market which is how a lot of entrepreneurs are starting to raise capital where they'll put out a smart contract and people can send in some cryptocurrencies to the smart contract and then when the contract executes tokens for that company, which could be considered like shares, are sent back to the wallet that sent the cryptocurrencies in and you essentially become like a shareholder in whatever companies doing that capital raise totally disintermediating Wall Street, which is really interesting. And that application is live now and people are using that, but I don't see a lot of other applications yet. But a lot of promise about what's to come, who knows how long that'll take, but this is definitely a rabbit hole.
Kevin: Yeah, it is.
Matthew: That could go down deeply.
Kevin: The only other thought from the standpoint of, I mean, thinking about currency in general and how in some, let's say, developing countries, the currency can also be, you know, extremely volatile and I know that it's always been a proposed, maybe hypothesis or ideas has been tossed around that. You know, these countries that do have these highly volatile currencies can actually adopt cryptocurrencies instead and then reduce the amount of, you know, fraud or other issues that would be causing this kind of volatility in their regular currency and then overall improve, like, the situation when it comes to the value of the currency and how that relates to other currencies and the value of, you know, the products and so on.
And those are, you know, those kinds of cases will be interesting to see if, you know, those come to real life and we can look at these kinds of cases being like, "Okay, now, this is something that did have a really big impact for a lot of people."
Matthew: Yeah. Well, how about, is there a tool web-based or a physical that helps you with your productivity that people might be interested in?
Kevin: Yeah. That's a good question and it's a, I've experimented with all kinds of different software and what is good or is not good. I mean, I can't really pin it down as like one thing that I do all the time that improves my productivity. There's the usual, like, business software tools that people use nowadays like Google Drive and Slack and those are fantastic, and various CRMs. I mean, the thing that's out of all of these that I think is important to take home when it comes to thinking about productivity is to get plenty of food and rest and to make sure that that's not like something that you're losing and I think you're definitely more productive when you're well rested and well fed and that's a lot of, you know, what if early entrepreneurs like myself gave up, like, first is like, "Oh, man, I got to work really hard, got to step up all night and then skip breakfast to get this thing done so that they can, you know, push this to next semester or whatever."
But actually, yeah, that's the message that I would leave it with that after doing this for a few years now. It's like, okay, people talk a lot about that kind of thing as being like, "Man, these entrepreneurs, they don't sleep, they don't eat, they just like work super crazy." It's like, well, actually, you know, try sleeping and eating and making sure that that's covered and then also focus a lot on your work. And that's better than...
Matthew: Good points. Let's just cover the basics, right, sleeping and eating. We don't do that very much. I always I'm like, "Maybe there's an app or some software that can make me superhuman. I can edit my genes and then I'll be able to stay up all night. I can work twice as much.
Kevin: Yeah. There's all this stuff in like, I mean, some people talk about this stuff in cannabis because it's also like, you know, mood modulators or the caffeine pills and these other things that are out there that you can try out, too, and I have some friends that will 100% vouch for that as like this is the key. But I haven't done too much of that and I definitely had my sprees of drinking too much coffee and that doesn't really work for me in terms of productivity so, yeah.
Matthew: Me too. I've done the same. Well, Kevin, as we close, tell listeners how they can reach out to you one more time and find Hyasynth Bio and connect with you.
Kevin: Yup. So plenty of different ways, our website is hyasynthbio.com. We've got a blog there that should be kicking up and becoming more lively in the next few months, so keep an eye for that because we do want to talk about more science and more of the community around this stuff. And then you can always write to us at firstname.lastname@example.org and that email goes directly to me for now and that might change whereas, you know, or hopefully that will change because maybe we just get too many emails that I can't handle them all. But for now, it goes to me and people can ask me questions and usually, I have time to answer for, yeah, just a few minutes answer your questions. So that's what I'll say.
Matthew: Do you think you could grow baking in your lab with yeast? I think that would be a hit, CBD baking.
Kevin: CBD baking, that would be a really great Saturday morning breakfast, I think. It's...we'll see. I'll have to write to them, Fitbits [SP] and they will open a collaboration or something like that.
Matthew: I think that should be the top priority for Hyasynth Bio, boom.
Kevin: Yeah. Baking is on the top list for some of these companies that are doing this meat stuff actually. That's a true statement.
Matthew: Well, Kevin, thanks so much for coming on the show and educating us. We wish you well in Montreal with Hyasynth Bio and stay warm.
Kevin: Yeah. It's been fun. Looking forward to hearing from the listeners and, yeah, I'll keep you posted.