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Gregg Weiss is EVP Software Development at Getleaf.co and Founder of CannaHoldings.com
Listen in as Gregg gives a boots-on-the-ground update of the legalization movement in Florida.
[1:28] – Gregg’s background
[2:21] – What is Leaf
[5:01] – What is CannaHoldings
[8:04] – Cannabis life in Florida before and after
[14:36] – Fixing Florida’s cannabis laws
[16:03] – Gregg talks about John Morgan investing
[18:21] – Gregg talks about his decision to leave Florida
[20:24] – Wrong perceptions of creating an app
[22:37] – Gregg talks about the most successful in terms of monetization
[25:00] – Gregg discusses most common questions from doctors
[27:28] – Gregg answers some personal development questions
[38:22] – Gregg’s contact details
What are the 5 Trends That Will Disrupt the Cannabis Industry in The Next Five Years? Find out with this FREE Cheat Sheet at https://www.cannainsider.com/trends
While the West Coast of the United States and Canada seem to be stealing the headlines with sweeping stories of the Green Rush into cannabis, Florida, America’s third most populous state with 20 million people is moving forward with its legalization plan. The question that remains to be answered is will Florida have a functional market or is it mired in governmental incompetence and bureaucracy. Here to help us sort us sort through Florida’s red tape is Gregg Weiss, EVP of Software Development at Leaf, and Founder of Canna Holdings. Gregg, welcome to CannaInsider.
Gregg: Good to be here. Thanks Matt.
Matthew: Give us a sense of geography. Where are you in the world today?
Gregg: I am in South Florida, Palm Beach County in the town of Willington.
Matthew: Are you in Del Boca Visa Phase 2?
Gregg: Del Boca Vista.
Matthew: That’s a Seinfeld reference for anybody listening.
Gregg: Definitely a Seinfeld fan, but it’s been a while. No, I’m not.
Matthew: I guess I could probably stop using 20 year old references. That might help a little bit. What’s your background? How did you get into the cannabis world?
Gregg: My background is in technology. I started an app development company about eight years ago or so when the app store first started. Actually, previously was a web development company. I sold that company about a year and a half ago with in interest in getting into this cannabis industry, as it was starting to develop in 2014-15 here in Florida. Like a lot of the entrepreneurs who got into this huge market and decided that this is where I wanted to be. Also I’m an advocate for specifically medical marijuana and all the uses and the conditions that it can help.
Matthew: Okay. We’ve had Yoni Ofir, Founder of Leaf on the show before, but give us a reminder of what Leaf, and what role you play there?
Gregg: Leaf is a plug and plant cannabis grow system, also grows vegetables. We just completed a $2.5 million Series A raise on Seed Invest, which we’re really excited about. It’s the only one of its kind with a climate controlled system, LED lights, hydroponic grow system and yields anywhere between three to four ounces per grow.
Matthew: That’s amazing. It really is. There’s few products in the cannabis space, I can probably only think about two or three others that kind of create a craving for it when you see it. The only thing I can say it’s similar to is maybe an Apple product or even some cars where you’re just like you look at it and it’s like, “I want that.” I don’t know where it comes from, but I do really want to get one of those. It looks so cool. There’s so much excitement around it. I know since you’re involved with the app, it’s going to be very clean and work well. I’m really excited about that. That’s a massive raise on Seed Invest too. How much bigger is that than the average seed invest raise, because I’ve seen other Seed Invest raises and they don’t seem nearly as big. Is that one much bigger, or am I crazy?
Gregg: No it is. I don’t know officially, compared to what the rest of the companies on Seed Invest have done. I know there’s one or two that have raised north of $2 million. I think very few. Seed Invest is a relatively new platform for equity crowd funding. It’s only been legally around with the FCC, being able to do that in the last year, year and a half. Yeah, we’ve had a lot of great success with it. We had over 600 people who have invested, with the majority of them being non-accredited investors. That’s really the big opportunity. If you want to invest in a company, a non-accredited investors previously didn’t have a chance to get in to a startup. They can invest anywhere from $1,000 to $20,000. The majority have been $1,000, $2,000, smaller investors, which has been great because then you have brand ambassadors for your product. It’s been a really good experience. We weren’t really sure how it was going to work out, but we’re very happy that we got involved.
Matthew: What is CannaHoldings?
Gregg: CannaHoldings is a company that I created last year before I actually started with Leaf last summer here in Florida, as things started to progress. Amendment 2 last summer was on the ballot, but it didn’t pass, but it did pass in November, as we know. I started CannaHoldings as a way to start educating our local physicians. Every state is different, but in Florida a physician needs to take an eight hour course in order to become a recommending physician. As we know, physicians in the United States are not taught anything in medical school about the endocannabinoid system, or how cannabis works as medicine. They’re very skeptical.
In order for Florida to become the medical market that everyone is predicting, you need to have a top down approach and the physicians need to be onboard. They need to take this eight hour course, otherwise you’re going to have a very small amount of doctors writing the recommendations, and then it’s going to turn into a sort of “Pot Doc” than a speech type of atmosphere, which no one really wants.
Matthew: That’s exactly what I thought of too. I thought of (6.27 unclear) beach and $40 and you’re like, “Oh, I’m having trouble sleeping?” Yep that’s it. On your way, young man.
Gregg: Yeah, girls on roller skates with pot leaf tank tops handing out little promo cards for $30, exactly. In fact, that’s some of the imagery that the No one 2 Campaign, No one Amendment 2 used heavily with their ads, and they literally said, we don’t want this to turn into California. The top down approach is really just getting physicians onboard and really starting with education. Again, this was before I joined Leaf last summer. I did a first symposium, invited a few physicians, presenters, Al, Dr. Sue Sicily [ph] was one of them, Dr. Greg (7.20 unclear). I did a free event in Palm Beach County. We had over 100 physicians attend. This was in September. Had a couple of sponsors. I thought you know what, if Amendment 2 passes in November, I think there’s going to be even a greater need. It did pass. I did a second one in March in South Florida that was a full, and then this past weekend was the third symposium in Orlando, where we had over 200 physicians attend. It was very well received.
Matthew: Let’s just rewind a little bit because you’re so immersed in this day-to-day. Let’s just go over that one more time. What happened? What was cannabis life in Florida before the November election and then after?
Gregg: In 2014, the Florida legislature passed what’s known as Senate Bill 1030, also known as the Compassionate Medical Cannabis Act of 2014, which allowed qualified patients to use the low THC, also known as Charlotte’s Web, mainly for seizures and epilepsy. It was a very limited program. Then in March of 2016, last year, the state legislature then passed House Bill 307, which is known as the Medical Use of Cannabis, which allowed for THC and expanded the use for patients that were terminal. Prior to November, with the Amendment 2, November of 2016, if you qualified, the only qualifying conditions were you’re terminal or you have seizures or epilepsy.
Amendment 2, which 71 percent of Floridians voted yes for, it added around 10 debilitating additions such as, HIV, PTSD, Parkinson’s, MS, ALS, etc., a couple of others. Floridians voted overwhelmingly 71 percent yes for that. Now in 2017, it’s funny because I’ve learned so much about how government works from being in the cannabis industry. Way more than I learned in my history class in high school or college. Now, the session, the legislative session just finished, and unfortunately they did not pass a bill. It got to the last day, and they did not pass the bill to implement the rules for Amendment 2. This is actually pretty timely because this past Friday, Governor Scott here in Florida, called for a special session, which is going to start this week. I believe Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. Called everybody back to discuss the budget because there were a couple of things out of the session that did not get passed. The budget was one of them. Medical marijuana was another one.
Unfortunately, medical marijuana is not on the agenda for the special session, which is really confusing and people in this industry here are like, why are they not addressing this. Apparently they’re not going to address it, which means it’s up to the Department of Health to write the rules. The Department of Health to write the rules. The Department of Health is consisted of appointees by Governor Scott. They’re not legislators. They don’t represent the people of Florida. It’s really frustrating and sort of backwards the way that Florida government works with regards to implementing that goal, marijuana.
Matthew: Yeah, it almost sounds like you’re saying these government bureaucrats have not done an optimal job in representing their constituencies Gregg. Is that the allegation at hand?
Gregg: In my opinion, yes, you’re absolutely correct.
Matthew: Shocking, I’m shocked.
Gregg: There’s just so much lobbying happening. You have seven existing license holders. Florida is a vertically integrated market, which in other states that have come before Florida have tried vertical integration, have proven that it really doesn’t work and they’ve gone horizontal. I want to say in Florida, it’s really expensive to get your medicine, and it’s almost half the price in other states , like Colorado, to get the same oil. When you have very few outlets to get this it drives up the price, and that doesn’t help patients who are paying cash and really can’t afford it in the first place. We know that their health insurance doesn’t cover it.
Matthew: This is why I really hope we don’t have universal healthcare coverage at the national level. If we’re going to have it, have it at the state level. Then if all these laboratories kind of trying out things, some work, and the ones that work make the other ones just look ridiculous because you could just point to Colorado and say look they’re doing it and then look this state over here is doing it, and even conservative states are doing it ten times better. This argument that it’s complex and the peons don’t understand all the esoteric knowledge and debates going on at the legislature. That kind of is a point. I kind of went off on a tangent there, but I think eventually Florida is going to have to come around because the citizens see functional markets all around them. They’re saying, can you just do what they’re doing in this state over here? Don’t reinvent the wheel.
Gregg: Yeah, I mean, people that really need it is just going to move out of Florida.
Matthew: Although it seems like the trend is the exact opposite. It seems like there’s a flood of people from the Northeast moving to Florida right now. It’s amazing. It’s like the wildebeest migration in the Serengeti Plains. There’s this flood, and huge dust storms of people pouring out of high tax, cold states, down to Florida.
Gregg: Yeah, it is a great quality of life. It’s a great place to live. There is no state tax so that’s a plus as well.
Matthew: Florida is making a lot of mistakes. The jury is still out when they’re going to fix them, but it sounds like this regulatory body is going to start making decisions in the absence of clear laws from the state legislature.
Gregg: That’s right. The amendment that did pass, Amendment 2, it states that if the state legislator can’t get it done, which they can’t, they didn’t, that it’s up to the Department of Health to promulgate the rules of how this program is going to roll out. I believe by July 3rd, if I’m getting this correctly. Then issue cards by October. I think they’ve already started issuing cards. There are some key dates that they have to have this implemented by. I think July 3rd is the next one. They basically have about a month, and there’s only a handful of people in the Office of Compassionate Use to get this done. They haven’t allocated a budget for it. The state has not given them the money that they actually need to roll this out. Hopefully, a special session this week, they are going to discuss and hopefully pass the budget, and hopefully they will allocate some dollars to the Office of Compassionate Use to roll this out.
Matthew: We’ve had John Morgan on the show, a lawyer that’s really prominent in Florida, that’s been a big advocate for responsible adult use cannabis, particularly for medical use. I think I’ve read a couple of things that he’s made some investments or he’s going to deploy capital. Have you heard anything about that?
Gregg: Yes, which is contrary to his whole agenda prior to Amendment 2, saying I don’t have any interest in the industry. I don’t own a grow. I’m really just doing this for my brother and it’s the right thing to do, and I’ve invested millions of dollars. You were there in Orlando at MJ Biz when he gave the keynote. I think he hasn’t even spoke after that. That was the first time I saw him speak. I was blown away. I was like, wow, he’s really doing the right thing. I believe him. Then the state legislature didn’t get it done, and Ben (16.45 unclear) who is his campaign manager. He publically shamed and blamed it on him, which is unfortunate. I can’t say that it’s his fault.
Then I read that he is going to invest some money. I also heard that he has 100 acres somewhere in Florida that he wants to build a grow. It’s just contrary to everything that he’s “ran on” even though he wasn’t running, over the last year and a half to kind of get this done. So, it kind of makes you wonder.
Matthew: It does make you wonder. At the same time, I’ll play the devil’s advocate and just say, he possibly changed his mind. That could happen too.
Gregg: Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, he’s an entrepreneur as well. He’s a businessperson. He not only has his big, national firm, personal injury law firm, but he owns restaurants. He owns entertainment things. With my entrepreneurial hat I would say, why wouldn’t you invest in the industry. If you spent all this money trying to get Amendment 2 passed and medical marijuana passed, and now it’s passed, why wouldn’t you invest and capitalize on this billion dollar industry in Florida. It would almost be stupid for him not to.
Matthew: Yeah, you could definitely make that argument. You’re leaving Florida. Why is that?
Gregg: It’s looking like I’m going to be relocating to Boulder and really head up the Leaf office there, in the next probably 60 days, now that we’ve closed on this round of funding through Seed Invest. That is really the primary reason. If I were to stay in Florida, there’s a lot of testing that needs to happen with these Leaf units. We have two engineers in Colorado that have a lab and have about a dozen Leaf units that are currently growing. We have units in Israel that are growing. I was brought on last year to really head up the software side of Leaf, and I hired two guys to work on the app in the backend, and that’s my experience from running Blue L Apps, the company that I sold a year and a half ago. Building software teams and building apps.
Being able to test with the app and a Leaf unit legally in Colorado is another big deal. Otherwise I would just be here in Florida growing tomatoes. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but this unit is really optimized to grow cannabis. That’s what we’re trying to do. So, that’s a big part of it.
Matthew: I don’t often talk with people that have the depth of skill you do in developing apps. What do you think the public’s idea is of developing an app, and then what the reality is, for someone that knows. We kind of look into the fish bowl and say oh, they just write some code and it’s done. I know it’s more difficult than that, but what does the public perceive about creating an app that’s wrong.
Gregg: There are many things. Number one, that it’s cheap and it’s easy and you could go offshore and hire someone from India for example and get it done really quick. You can even get an estimate offshore, and it will be cheap, but the quality of the product and what you’re going to get is not going to be good. It is a process. Every app, just like I always use the housing analogy. Someone wants to build a house and say build me a house. Okay well, how many stories is it? Is there a pool? Do you have granite in the kitchen? There’s all these details of it that you really need to figure out before you can give someone an estimate on what it’s going to cost to build a house.
An app is sort of a generic name. There’s social media apps. There’s simple calculator apps. It’s a very wide range of complexity in what you’re building. The app store is now, I want to say, almost 10 years old. I think the iPhone just had its 10 year anniversary this, and then the app store came a couple years later. It’s very difficult to not only build an app, but then get it in the hands of people who are actually going to use it. Marketing and promotion of your app. The days of build it and the user will come, but I don’t have a business model or my business model is I’m going to make money on advertising once I have millions of people and hope that I can sustain that business model is very difficult. You really have to have a business model with an app, if you’re an entrepreneur. You have that sort of app idea.
Matthew: Right. What have you seen be the most successful in terms of monetization? Is it something that’s an upgrade, like a freemium model? Is that the best way to go because ad support sounds hard?
Gregg: The freemium model is definitely good because that removes the barrier of the 99 cents or whatever you’re going to charge, and it gets people to try it and use it and have your app become sticky in a sense. Then you have some premium, paid for, whether it’s contented or features in it. That has worked very well. Advertising works well, if you have more of a utility type of app that people are using. Maybe it’s a weather app or that sort of thing. Again it’s very difficult to monetize an app. What a lot of people are doing now is apps for businesses.
These are the apps that you and I don’t see as consumers. When I ran my app development company we did build a lot of these internal company process driven apps, whether it’s an iPad for a guy who is out in the field, and he needs to take some notes and send it back to the back office. Previously he was doing that on a piece of paper and then going back to the office at 5 o’clock and then reentering everything in a desktop tool. Well now he can go out in the field, enter everything in, do what he needs to do and it’s done, and it really provides for a lot of corporate efficiencies. I think a lot of business and companies are really moving to mobile apps to help them run their businesses, and that’s really where a lot of this value is taking place.
Matthew: That’s a great point. You don’t hear about that as much because usually we’re all focused on consumer apps, but that is amazing efficiency you can gain from that. I would love to have you back on when Leaf’s up and running and we can talk more about the app later. That’s a future conversation. Circling back to some of the education events you’ve done with doctors and so forth in Florida. Is there a question they have that you see comes up or a concern? What’s their pushback or general thoughts about, I know you said they weren’t familiar with the endocannabinoid system. What are their other thoughts in general or obstacles or resistance would you say?
Gregg: I’d say the number one is that they don’t find that there’s enough research and the triple blinded studies that they’re used to that are done with millions of dollars in the pharmaceutical companies and the package insert that says dose this or take this three times a day for seven days. We know that medical cannabis is not like that. It’s unique to every person’s condition and every person’s different situation. It’s a different paradigm. It’s an herb. It’s not a synthetic pharmaceutical that has gone through all these controlled trials, at least not yet in this country. In several other countries they are doing those studies.
The last symposium we had last weekend we had Dr. Sue Sicily and she was talking about her study that she just started for PTSD on whole plant with the veterans. Her study is the first triple blinded control study for whole plant marijuana for PTSD for veterans. That’s going to be going on for another year and a half. It was great for her to present some of these findings and what she’s doing to this audience of somewhat skeptical physicians. We had an audience of 200, and for them to go, oh there is actually a study here. It took her seven years to get to a point where she could actually study that.
Matthew: I’ve had her on the show, and I know she’s been very persistent and come up with some corporate interest that do not want to see her succeed in what she’s doing. So I give her all the credit in the world. She’s also a very nice person. I wish her the best. Gregg, I know you have to get going so I want to ask you a couple more questions before we close. I like to ask some personal development related questions. Is there a book that has had a big impact on your life or way of thinking that you would like to share with listeners?
Gregg: I mean just with regards to agile software development and apps and hardware/software. I think the Lean Startup. I’m sure everybody would probably mention that in this field, by Eric Rice. That’s a really great one which hammers home the idea of proving your assumptions. Every startup, every entrepreneur has a great idea and then they have assumptions that are, everyone’s going to like this or pay for this because of XY and Z. You have to find a way to prove those without spending a lot of money or raising a lot of money, only to find out that maybe you were wrong. Gone I think are the days of let’s raise a ton of money. Let’s build this thing and then test it and see if people want it, and we’ll pay for it. If they don’t, we just lost a lot of money.
That has had a profound impact I think not just for myself, but a lot of people. Pivoting, based on your customer feedback. There’s been a lot of great examples of companies who have pivoted. Then also just the Law of Attraction books, just that whole thing. I was first introduced to that about 10 years ago. I saw the film, someone introduced me. That kind of changed my life in terms of business and personal and just the way you think and your mindset and all that. I think that’s important.
Matthew: I’m glad you mentioned that because you’ve got two very different examples there. One’s kind of a very—We got the yin and yang, The yang being the technical, objective things with the Lean Startup and more yin energy there with the Secret. I think we don’t talk about those type of intangibles that much because we can’t measure it. We can’t measure it, we can’t touch it. So it must not be important, but it is.
Gregg: It’s so important. I can’t tell you, we don’t have time now, but I can tell you how by employing the mindset of the Secret and the Law of Attraction and all of that, and some people, Ah I’ve heard of that. It’s this or that. They have their own opinion of it. I can’t tell you how many examples that for me I’ve worked both personally and career-wise that I can attribute to learning from that, and having a really big impact on my personal life and my career life. There’s just so many. I’m a big fan of that.
Matthew: There’s a related topic to that called, Lorenzo’s Butterfly, which if you do a Google Image search, you can see a diagram of what this looks like. Essentially it puts in math how whatever you’re putting out there, whatever you’re putting into the universe, it comes back to you in greater mass. So if you’re putting out positive energy, you’ll get this back. If you’re having thought about a startup you want to create, all these new thoughts will come and surround that. There you have a very intangible theoretical idea backed with something objective for the two type of listeners that are out there that are some saying, I want proof, and some saying, I like the softer side. Really glad you mentioned both of those things. Is there a tool web based or otherwise that you consider indispensible to your day to day life, I’ll say besides Leaf.
Gregg: It funny, one may think coming from the app world, that I’m the most techy guy and I use all these different apps. I really don’t. I use, and this is something I thought of, I was like man, I got to have some great answer for Matt that I use all these crazy apps. I use iCal the most. I use my calendar as many people do. They kind of plan their day. If it’s 11 o’clock at night and there’s something that I think about that I need to do, I’ll just add it in my calendar, little notes, because I live by my calendar. I think that’s really important. On personal development I learned TM, Transcendental Meditation a couple of years ago. When you do that in the morning, you’re supposed to do it for 20 minutes twice a day. Admittedly I very rarely get to do it at the end of the day. I try to do it in the morning when I first wake when everything is quiet, and it really sets the tone for your day. And just learning that has been a really great, personal benefit, and I would definitely recommend it.
Matthew: Don’t they give you your own mantra when you go through that process?
Gregg: They do yeah.
Matthew: What is your mantra? Do you mind sharing that?
Gregg: I cannot share my mantra, no. You’re not supposed to tell anybody.
Matthew: Oh really. (whispers) Gregg, it’s just me and you. No one is listening.
Gregg: They tell you that when you do the training. The training is four days. The first day is two hours and they have to be consecutive days. The guy that taught me was actually trained by Maharishi in Spain in the seventies. Back then he did this retreat there. I never asked him, but he’s probably in his seventies, but he looks like he’s my age. He looks like he’s in his forties. It’s definitely beneficial. We got our 14 year old son to do it. He does it because he’s 14, but we hope that as he grows up he’ll be able to use this tool like he’s been taught when he feels like he needs it. I wish I was taught it when I was in high school or college and be able to draw from that. I would definitely recommend it anybody.
Matthew: Was there a lot of anticipation when they revealed what your mantra was, because I can just only think okay they’re going to do the grand reveal now. It is, duh-ta-duh, and the whisper in your ear, Gregg, your mantra is Pop Tart. You’re like wait a second, I can’t be thinking about a Pop Tart the whole time when I’m meditating. I’m going to be craving Pop Tarts. It’s nothing like that is it?
Gregg: No, I think they’re all Sanskrit words. The mantra is not supposed to have meaning. It’s not a word. I found myself trying to analyze what it is. If you told me what it was and I was like well how do you spell it. What does it mean? He’s like, I’m not going to tell you how to spell it. I’m just going to say it again. I was like, well should I say it fast. Should I say it, you know, you don’t say it. You internalize it in your head, and have all these questions. There’s no right or wrong. You just repeat it as your mantra.
Matthew: That is hilarious. It seems like the people that are into Transcendental Meditation stick with it much more than other kinds of meditation, and I think it’s because they put this money into it upfront, and they’re like, hey I’ve invested in this. I’m going to make sure I get return on my investment. Do you think that’s why?
Gregg: I don’t think that’s why. I think it’s just very different than mindfulness, all those other types of meditation. There are some people that would be like, you don’t have to spend the money to do it, but there’s a lot of science and research behind TM. When you go to the initial consult there’s all these pamphlets and stuff that they give you. It’s backed by science. It helps with blood pressure. It helps with stress. It helps with a lot of medical conditions. It’s real. I’m not exactly sure why. That is the number one thing of why people don’t do it, because it is expensive to do. If you really want to do it, there are grants that you can get and you can get it paid for if you really want to.
Matthew: I had an amazing experience at a Korean Buddhist Temple, and I went in there for a meditation session and they said, okay you mind, like most people’s is kind of polluted with this river of thought, and there’s really no way to turn it off, but we have some things that can help. We want you to do this 100 times before we start meditating. You have to sit down, then get on your knees and then stand up, then bow. It was something like that and I did it 100 times, and they said, okay by the end of that your mind has gotten rid of most of it. I was like okay, well this seems a little strange. After that they led me through a meditation, and I had this experience where I didn’t fall asleep or feel tired at all, but just time kind of stood still for an hour and without any thoughts. It’s just such a rare thing to be awake and not have thoughts going through your head, that the first time it happens, it’s so restful. You feel like you’re recharged somehow. I can’t explain it any other way than that.
Gregg: You’re absolutely right. That’s what it is. You can experience it for five seconds or a minute or five minutes. The goal is that every time that you meditate you get into that state. Some days you have a lot of thoughts. Some days you don’t. Some days you don’t even get into that state. Yeah we’re really going off on a tangent here.
Matthew: We’re going off on a tangent. People love it. Everybody, let Gregg know that you love it. Gregg, how can they reach out to you and learn more about Leaf and learn more about CannnaHoldings and all the things you’re up to? Is there any way?
Gregg: Sure. The website for Leaf is www.getleaf.co and we’re still taking pre-orders. The website for CannaHoldings is www.cannaholdings.com, which I’m actually going to have a website up in the next couple of months. Right now that just redirects to Event Bright, which is the last symposium that we did.
Matthew: We went all over the place today, but it was a fun conversation. I appreciate you coming on. Good luck with your move to Boulder and everything you’re working on.
Gregg: Thank you Matt. I appreciate it.
Jim McAlpine is the Executive Director of The New West Summit. Jim and Matthew discuss how Jim’s Bay Area conference is attracting the best and brightest in cannabis tech and media.
[1:03] – What’s the New West Summit
[1:20] – Jim’s background
[2:45] – Jim talks about the first New West Summit
[5:18] – The experience of a New West Summit
[6:57] – Unique things at the New West Summit
[9:30] – What are the 420 Games
[14:08] – Jim gives a shout out to businesses that attended New West Summit
[17:26] – Jim talks about big opportunities for entrepreneurs in the market
[19:03] – What’s Powerhouse Gym
[21:59] – Jim talks about the California government affairs
[25:33] – How to be a successful exhibitor at a New West Summit
[27:12] – Jim answers some personal development questions
[30:08] – Contact details for New West Summit
As the cannabis market continues its upward surge into the billions of dollars in revenue, many businesses and entrepreneurs are trying to understand how technology can enable and accelerate business success. Jim McAlpine created the New West Summit to highlight and bring together those that are creating the technological change in the cannabis space. Jim, welcome to CannaInsider.
Jim: Thanks for having me. I’m a big fan of your podcast.
Matthew: Thank you. Give us a sense of geography. Where are you in the world today?
Jim: Currently I’m in lovely Northern California, in particular, Marin County. I also work in the ski industry and spend a lot of time in Lake Tahoe, but I’m in Marin today.
Matthew: Okay. What’s the New West Summit, at a high level?
Jim: It’s a B2B conference that focuses on technology, media and investment in the cannabis space.
Matthew: Okay. You mentioned you’re involved in the ski industry, but tell us more about your background and why you created the New West Summit.
Jim: Well, so, I’ve been an entrepreneur my whole life. For about 20 years I’ve owned and run a company called, Snowbound.com, which is an internet based company that offers ticketing services and marketing services for the ski industry. That’s kind of what made me jump into the cannabis space because the snow stopped falling out here in Northern California for several years, four straight years and really impacted our business in the snow industry. I kind of call it the one positive thing for me that came out of the drought, which it inspired me to get into this amazing industry of cannabis.
Matthew: Yeah. I skied heavenly in Squaw Valley and I really enjoyed that, some years back, but is the snow finally returned now this year?
Jim: Yeah, this year’s been an amazing year. Actually more snow than we’ve seen in decades up in Lake Tahoe. Yeah, we had a great year finally again, so that will be good for Snowbound. Cannabis and skiing go together pretty well. I like to merge both of those worlds together.
Matthew: Yeah. You can really smell it in Colorado when you’re behind someone on the ski lift. There’s this draft as you go up the mountain.
Jim: That’s not just in Colorado. I’m sure it’s more in Colorado.
Matthew: You had your first New West Summit a short time back. Where was that and what was it like?
Jim: The first New West Summit was two years ago. It was in 2015. It was at the Park 55 Hotel in San Francisco. It was great. Our first event was really well received, because there wasn’t anything like what we did in the industry, focusing on the tech aspects. It really went well. Last year we did it at the Hyatt Regency at San Francisco, and then this year we’ve moved it over to the Marriot and the Oakland Convention Center in Oakland because we’ve grown out of the space of the others.
Matthew: Wow. Oakland’s really transformed quite a bit too over the years. I remember the first time I went there. It was sketchy. This was years ago, but it’s really kind of transformed. How have you seen it change?
Jim: First of all San Francisco is I think the most expensive city in the country. It’s surpassed New York. It’s incredibly expensive to live in San Francisco. I think a lot of people began to look at Oakland as an option to not have to pay as much. Truthfully Oakland, more so than San Francisco, is the center in Northern California or California of the cannabis industry. It’s just over the water, but Oakland is really—Harbor Side is there, and it’s kind of been the real center in the Bay Area of the cannabis movement.
Matthew: If you’re a nerd like me, you look at a seismology map and it’s bright red in Oakland. If there’s an earthquake, Oakland is going down. Would you agree with that?
Jim: When you live in earthquake country you’re not scared of earthquakes, but you’re terrified of hurricanes and tornados and all that. I’ve been through many. I was at the World Series when the big one hit here. We don’t really think about it too much, to be honest with you.
Matthew: I lived in Chile for a time and experienced many earthquakes, and I’m still nervous about them. So, you got one on me. That’s good. You must be properly medicated. Is that what it is?
Jim: No, no. I have not medicated this morning yet, but it’s just one of those things. We grew up our whole lives here doing earthquake drills and all that. You just get kind of used to it. I’m sure that the people that live in hurricane, like I said, are way more scared of earthquakes, and they know they just go into their basement and wait it out. You just get used to it, used to what you’re living around I guess.
Matthew: Yeah, I grew up with tornadoes, and they didn’t bother me, but they freak people out that aren’t used to them.
Jim: The thought of a tornado scares the hell out of me. So, you got me beat on that one.
Matthew: Describe a little bit what people experience. If I was a fly on the wall at a New West Summit, what’s it like? What am I hearing? What am I seeing?
Jim: It’s really been the first conference to focus with a laser on technology, and how that technology will be the driver of the future of this industry in every aspect. It looks like a typical conference. It’s got panel tracks. It’s got exhibiters and keynotes and all that kind of stuff. The real differentiator to me is that we focus graduate level curriculum versus the one-on-one curriculum you see at a lot of other shows. Instead of how to open a dispensary, we’re going to have drilled down speakers and topics on agri tech, hydro tech, lighting tech, distribution technologies, point of sale systems. It’s just definitively a little bit more complex than some of the other conferences. The brighter minds of the industry have picked up, and I think that’s what’s kind of made people like us and separated us from the other shows.
Matthew: So you’re kind of skipping the base of the pyramid. You assume when people come to New West that they know what the introductory topics are and kind of assimilated that and digested it already.
Jim: Yeah exactly. I was just going to say, it’s not that beginners aren’t welcome, but yeah this whole curriculum has been fashioned for people what have at least a decent baseline, if not a strong baseline, of cannabis understanding in most aspects.
Matthew: What experiences do you try to weave in the Summit in order to have people walking away talking about or having something they want to talk about? What do they see that they can’t see anywhere else?
Jim: What I’ve tried to do is weave in non-endemic cannabis companies, and more so non-endemic speakers to the cannabis industry. An example is last year we had Susan Bennett who is the voice of Siri on the iPhone come and speak about her experience in the tech field of recording all that stuff, and there was some fun cannabis integration of that talk. We had Richard Branson last year, who kind of gave more of an all encompassing talk about the global legalization potential of cannabis. Really having people come from outside of cannabis and that are successful technology disrupters. Having speakers come from Salesforce, from Uber, from Go Pro helmet cam, and really talk about those fundamental philosophies of how to move the needle using technology. I think that really separates us too because usually at other shows it’s just the same names that you see and it’s all cannabis people. So, bringing big business and successful companies and speakers in from outside, I think really excites people, and they hear new information that’s going to help them. That’s another reason I think people separate us as kind of a graduate level curriculum, if you will.
Matthew: Well, well done getting Richard Branson to come to your event. That’s really got to be a big draw. Is that hard to get someone of that caliber to come? How does that work?
Jim: Yeah. Richard actually Skyped a live Skype from Necker Island, and did a speech and a Q&A session. He did it as a favor for us. His feed to speak is very, very expensive. He was a cool enough guy that he saw what we were doing and we didn’t have the money to pay his usual speaking fee, so he worked with us for less because he cares about this whole industry.
Matthew: That’s cool.
Jim: He’s a great guy. He’s an idol of mine for sure.
Matthew: Yeah, me too. He’s kind of like a business leader, Gandhi and Yoda all wrapped up into one. He seems to have achieved success not just in business, but in other areas.
Jim: Yes, spiritually. I’m the 420 Games Guy and Richard’s a great outdoor adventurer and athlete. So that’s another thing that I like about him is he gets out kite surfing and does some cool stuff.
Matthew: Any chance you’re going to make it to Necker Island?
Jim: That is definitely on my bucket list. I plan to someday make it there, yes.
Matthew: Gosh. That sounds like a great experience there. Well you mentioned the 420 Games. What are the 420 Games?
Jim: The 420 Games were actually my first foray into this industry, when I decided to jump in. In simple format, they’re athletic events formulated to destigmatize both the plant cannabis and the people that use it via athletic achievement. We tour around the country. This year we have eight events in six different states, seven different states. They’re 4.20 mile runs. So they kind of look like your typical 5k advocacy runs, whether it was for breast cancer or a woman’s right for abortion or whatever it may be. These are just advocacy runs, and we don’t smoke at the events. They’re family friendly. There’s kids out there. It’s really to change that perception of if you use marijuana, that you’re a stoner.
Matthew: Yeah. We had Seibo Shen, CEO of VapeXhale, on the show and he talked about how he sees a lot of NFL athletes, MMA athletes who are cannabis enthusiasts. What’s your experience around athletes at that level consuming cannabis?
Jim: (A) Seibo is one of my best friends. He’s actually an amazing athlete and a jujitsu guy and is pretty high level himself. There’s so many athletes that’ I’ve met through the 420 Games and that are advocating for acceptance of cannabis. In particular, I was just out at Harvard medical school and I moderated a panel with Ricky Williams. Eban Britton, Nate Jackson and Lance Johnstone who are all ex-NFL players, as well as a couple of doctors. We had about 400 doctors in the room listening to us speak on cannabis as an alternative for opiates, because many NFL players are forced to take opiates because of their injuries and they’re not allowed to use cannabis and become addicted.
It was a really forward moving thing to have these doctors at Harvard really intently listening to us and asking questions, and you can tell they were engaged. I think having these athletes that have come onboard really helps move the needle because people really want to listen, and they respect someone who is a professional athlete in a different way than if it was you or me talking about it.
Matthew: Yeah, the NFL athletes really seem to be trying to get the message out there lately. Does it sound like that message is being well received, apart from the doctors in the room?
Jim: Yeah. Unfortunately the one guy that needs to get it is Rodger Goodell. We also did the same similar panel at the Super Bowl literally to address the NFL and Roger Goodell to get them to hear our message. So, I think across the board the football players are putting out a really articulate message, which is also important. They’re all really smart guys that I’ve worked with that share the message about what cannabis can be as medicine in a way that people hear and take in that changes their opinions if they’re doubters. Yeah I think having these professional athletes, even outside of football, it’s been focused on the CT and concussion stuff in the NFL. As Seibo was talking about, these fighters are out there taking big head hits, and a lot of the UFC guys have become big advocates for cannabis as well. Joe Rogan talks about it all the time. I think almost in all sports it’s becoming looked at as an alternative for pain relief versus taking pharmaceuticals, which at the root of it makes me really happy to see people understand that this is medicine and not just something we use to get high.
Matthew: So, you’re seeing it more as pain management than performance enhancements, just in anecdotal experience?
Jim: Yeah, absolutely. I think athletes use cannabis. When I speak about this I always talk about the two genres of use. It’s focus and recovery. Myself, I like to use cannabis before I go skiing or surfing or on a bike ride. It really just helps me in the gym too to stay focused and enjoy what I’m doing more, instead of feeling the pain and being like oh this sucks, I want to quit. It makes me more engaged. The other side of it is what you mentioned and I think more people use it for, which is recovery. Instead of putting a pill in your mouth, you can use a cannabis topical, you can use pills. You don’t have to smoke, or you can smoke, and all of those ways bring relief to athletes after they’ve hurt their muscles or they’ve got sore joints.
Matthew: Is there a couple businesses or entrepreneurs you want to highlight that were at the last New West Summit that you think are noteworthy that you can tell us a little bit about?
Jim: Yeah, absolutely. To start off I’ll say, when we first started this two years ago, the delivery company Ease really stood out with their deliver app. That was something that seemed to really blow people’s mind that you could order your cannabis on your iPhone and someone would knock on your door to deliver it within 10 or 15 minutes. I think at the first one the delivery apps and that kind of stuff really stood out, and it’s been fun to watch the progression. This last year it was more on the growth side.
There’s three companies that would stick out in my head. There’s a company called Flourish Farms. They have these really interesting lighting pods. In essence you can grow outdoor with indoor controls, and there are these pods that allow you to basically put the pods over the plants and they refract light through these kind of solar like panels and bring all of the outdoor true sunlight into your plant while protecting it from the elements. It can almost amplify the sunlight. It’s an amazing way to increase the efficiencies of outdoor grows, and there’s a huge amount of interest in that.
There was a company called Grownetics that’s really an automated grow tech system that helps people with adjusting their lighting or their CO2 or whatever it is in their grow. That seemed to work really well. It had a lot of people interested in it. The last one was Flow Hub. It’s a seed to sale company and point of sale company out of Colorado, that really seems to be challenging and bringing perhaps a better product to the market than the MJ Freeways and other point of sale systems out there right now. It’s been cool to see the shift of focus. At first it was the apps and the integrative stuff to order your marijuana, and now it’s been focusing more on, or more interest on the actual grow tech in the last year.
Matthew: That’s cool. I actually went to the offices of the Flow Hub guys, and they said we want to show you how to use the software, but instead of explaining it to you, they just put this device in my hand and said, use this to move a plant from this room to this room. They had me doing it like that (snaps), out of the box without any training or anything. I thought that was pretty revolutionary what they were doing there. That’s interesting.
Jim: Yeah absolutely. The guys that created Firefly, the vaporizer, came from Apple and I recently read that Apple has a couple of patents on vaporizers. I’m excited for the day where we can have Apple with their vaporizer at the New West Summit, and truly integrate the worlds of tech and cannabis by having a company like Apple making products for us.
Matthew: Gosh, that would be cool if they did something like that, but at the same time it seems like they’re a little conservative. It might be a few years before they do something like that, but they do have a patent, so they’re obviously working on it.
Jim: Yeah, who knows. The future is bright, they say. So, I’m waiting and excited to see what comes out.
Matthew: If you were going to clone yourself and create a business in the tech space, some product or service apart from New West Summit, do you have any ideas that you want to throw out there for entrepreneurs that you see big opportunities if they can address some aspect of the market?
Jim: I think looking for—my philosophy in business has always been what is a solution that’s not as good as it needs to be. Instead of being the guy that invents something from the ground up, I’ve always like to say, here’s something that’s pretty cool, but it could be a lot cooler, and take that kind of head start. I think in the cannabis industry there are many companies, I’m not going to name anybody, but across the board from each sect of the cannabis industry, whether it’s the grow side, it’s the dispensary side, it’s the distribution side or any of the other tech stuff, there’s a lot of opportunity where people aren’t doing things quite to the A plus level yet. If someone’s out there with a good idea but they’re not doing it right, that’s really to me an amazing opportunity to step in and quickly make a difference. My philosophy has always been look around, see who’s doing something, but not doing it well that you could do better. Again, I don’t want to say any names, but there’s a lot of things out there that are not yet to the level they need to be, which means there’s a lot of opportunity for people that understand tech.
Matthew: Yeah that’s a good point. Alleviate a pain point, rather than create a new market. There is some incumbance in different areas of the tech scene in cannabis that just happened to be first on the scene, but are not necessarily the best or optimal that could be displaced pretty readily, if they understand the pain point. Tell us a little bit about Powerhouse Gym. What’s that?
Jim: Power Plant Fitness, that’s another one of our ventures in the cannabis athletic space.
Matthew: Power Plant Fitness, sorry about that.
Jim: That’s okay. No problem. I think there is a Powerhouse Gym from back in the day, kind of like a Gold’s or something. Power Plant obviously a double (19.22 unclear) there. We’re still raising money. It’s been an arduous process. When Donald Trump and Jeff Sessions came into power here a lot of the traditional money that we were expecting to come in for that venture got pulled back, because they were scared of the administration. So, I’m still currently raising funds for Power Plant Fitness. We’ve got a location in San Francisco that we would like to get opened here by the end of the year. It’s been one of those slow going raises that hasn’t happened as quickly as we would like. So, we’re still in that raising money phase.
Matthew: Yeah I’ve heard that feedback across the board that Jeff Session’s appointment was like a huge wet blanket. Things are still going on, but it just slowed everything down because no one wants to invest until they see. I think they’re seeing that perhaps he’s not as bad as they thought, but it’s still not clear.
Jim: I think he’s as bad as we all thought, but I don’t think he’s going to be as powerful as he hopes he could be. So that’s the way I look at it. To me what Jeff Sessions has done, for me, he made the big, real money investors back off, but in the big picture it’s not going to kill California, Oregon, Washington or the legal states, but what it’s going to sadly do is slow down the legalization in the states that need it and that aren’t there yet. I feel badly for those states that were getting close to legalization. With Sessions in office, I think it’s going to slow that down and probably have to come later. Later in the next administration for the states that don’t have any form of medical or recreational cannabis legal yet.
Matthew: I mean, I know you’re not a government expert or anything like that, but I was just reading yesterday that 250,000 tax payers left California last year, and it’s kind of a state of dichotomies in that you’ve got really wealthy tech investors and smart people that know how to make a lot of money. Then there’s the other side of that where there’s a lot of people not making much money there. The middle class seems to be leaving the state, from what I’m reading, largely because the high income tax rate. I think the top wants 13 percent. Just really high real estate prices, and a state government that’s not very business friendly. Do you see California, in the next ten years, having a positive outcome as these pension benefits spiral out of control and the state budget deficits get larger, or do you think it’s a non-issue that will resolve itself somehow?
Jim: It’s hard to say. I think California definitely has a bit of a mess on its hands, especially in the class system and the financial disparities that we have. I’m living right in the middle of it, and I’ve personally thought about leaving the state just because it’s so expensive here. I love living in California, and they say you get what you pay for, but it’s starting to hit that point where it almost doesn’t make sense trying to keep up with the Jones’ down here. I really don’t know. The one thing I do know is I’m a huge fan of Gavin Newsom, I’ve supported his campaign and been to his fundraisers. So, I would love to get Gavin, as he’s cannabis friendly and a forward moving, really strong thinker. Gavin is going to have his hands full. I think he’ll be the one to fix California, if we can do that. I wish I had the answers to those things, but I don’t really.
Matthew: I don’t know. If the Bay Area could somehow secede from the state of California, I think it would be a marvel. Something crazy would happen there between the technology and the capital and the innovative thinking. It would just go, it would become its own universe.
Jim: Yeah, no. It is crazy living here to see how much progression and things that are going on. It’s a really exciting place to be. To kind of turn the corner here, talking just outside of states and now talking countries, I’ve been really interested in Justin Trudeau and Canada and the opportunities up there in the cannabis industry, as we move forward. I think a lot of the investment money in the US that was going to go into US companies has began to go north into Canada.
Matthew: Yeah, it really is much easier there in Canada with the banking being legal. I think the only missing piece and the raising capital, those two things, but the only missing piece is dispensaries. Now I know they have dispensaries in Vancouver, but they’re essentially illegal. If they went away from this male-only thing, I think that would be huge. That would be the final missing puzzle piece that would just move the whole pole of the cannabis universe to Canada. So, with you on that. The population seems to have accepted it more. We have two poles in the US where we have people who totally accept it, and then it seems like people are against it. I mean I guess we’re winning some over into the acceptance side, but Canada seems more moderate about it. That could just be my perception.
Jim: I agree with you. There’s some disparities and weirdness in the laws with the dispensaries. I know there’s a lot of ones that were opening and getting shut down and just a bad, gray area. I think they’re addressing that now and moving into next year, that’s not going be a big issue in Canada. I’ve been excited to have a lot of the bigger Canadian companies start to come down to New West because they know that a lot of investors come to our events and they’re looking for American money now. So, the Canadian companies know that the American investors are interested in them, and because of that we’ve seen an influx of Canadian companies this year signing up for New West Summit. Honestly I don’t think we’ll get him, but I put in a request to see if Justin Trudeau would be able to come speak at New West Summit. I’m not holding any high hopes on that, but he would be an amazing guy to come talk as well.
Matthew: Oh yeah, that would be great. Now what do exhibitors achieve, what kind of exposure do they get? How do you become a successful exhibitor at a New West Summit and get the most out of it?
Jim: I think the first question is what are you looking for out of being an exhibitor. When I sell a booth that’s what I ask people. What do you want out of this show? Many bigger companies are just looking for branding and for people to know their name and see their name everywhere. Smaller companies many times are looking for an ROI. If they’re going to spend X, they need to make X back in new business from the event. Across the board I think the biggest things would be potentially meeting investors, as there’s a lot of investors at tech conferences. You see a lot of those kind of bigger money, traditional VC guys at our events sniffing around to try and figure out the landscape. So I think investment is a big one.
A lot of the growers and dispensary owners and people that are the executives of the industry are there. Those guys are looking for opportunities, whether it’s a new point of sale system like Flow Hub or it’s a new lighting system. So, a lot of the companies coming there are there poised to do business, and they do a lot of business. Our first year of New West Summit blew me away. One of the extractor companies, Genius Extractions, did over a quarter million dollars of business at our show in two days.
Matthew: Wow. That’s great.
Jim: Yeah, I mean, that’s what we want to do is put both sides in the room. The people providing the technology but also the people that want to purchase and use that technology.
Matthew: Jim, I like to ask some personal development questions to let listeners get a better sense of who you are personally. With that, is there a book that has had a big impact on your life or way of thinking that you would like to share with listeners?
Jim: I shouldn’t admit this, but I’m not a huge reader. I love reading magazines and short stuff, but I’m not a big, long book reader, but the ones that have kind of kept my attention and that I remember, I think the most impactful book for me that I’ve read has been called The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, by Dr. Stephen Covey. It’s been really good for me as an entrepreneur to just have some baselines of how to operate. That book goes outside of business and is philosophically on how to live your life and be successful. I’ve always tended to, I don’t want to use the word self-help, but I like reading books that teach me something.
Matthew: Yeah, I still think about that book all the time because he has these four quadrants where the things—Two of the quadrants I remember. There’s important and urgent and another one was urgent, but not important. I’m thinking to myself, yes, this thing has come up on my schedule or has popped into my life for some reason. It seems urgent, but it’s not important. You can just choose to ignore those things. You don’t have to do them. Instead focus on the things that are important and just take care of them. Because if it’s not important, what does it matter if it’s urgent?
Jim: Absolutely. That makes me think about my email inbox that’s way too flooded and not trying to get back to every email. I’m starting to realize you need to pick and choose your battles. You can’t get back to everybody. That book, and I live by lists. My biggest tool personally for success is just having a pad of paper and every day I write a list of what I want to accomplish. It’s funny, if I do something that wasn’t on the list, I’ll write it on the list and cross it out just so I can see that I did that and feel more accomplished. I think just the very simple task of list making is really important and most successful people do that.
Matthew: Yeah, I like the list too. I have one that kind of syncs with my phone and my laptop. I wonder sometimes if I put too much on the list. Do you have a lot of things on there, or do you try to keep it down to two or three things, but somehow it seems to grow?
Jim: Yeah, I’ve got a little note pad. I try to make it never be more than one page, I guess is the best way to put it. Like you said, I try and pick the stuff that’s important and prioritize it, so I’ve got the less important stuff below and the most important stuff at the top, and if I don’t get to the bottom, that’s okay.
Matthew: Okay. As we close, can you tell listeners how they learn more about New West Summit, both when the next one is and how to register, how to become and how to connect with you in general?
Jim: Yeah absolutely. Before I do that, I would love to share one other thing. You had asked me an earlier question just about different ideas and New West Summit. What I’m starting to see at New West Summit and really excited to see more of, and as we talk about technology on a podcast like yours, hemp is such an amazing piece of the cannabis industry that not a lot of people are looking at right now because it’s more about the cannabis as a plant, using it recreationally or medicinally. That piece of cannabis and the hemp industry in and of itself is going to be, in my opinion, the next big rush in this industry that a lot of people aren’t looking at or thinking about.
Everyone knows that you can make paper, but you can make hemp fuel and replace petroleum. You can use hempcrete. You can build houses and fuel your car with hemp. I just wanted to iterate to everybody out there that it’s great to smoke marijuana or eat it or use it however you want to use it for that benefit, but the plant itself has so many more things that it’s going to go for us in society and humanity over the next few decades that I think a lot of people are going to be surprised and have their eyes opened at the possibility of hemp, and I wanted to make sure to share that today.
Matthew: Yeah, hemp is kind of the behind the scenes celebrity. I’ve read how Mercedes is making door panels and bumpers out of hemp resins now. As supply chains for different products try to become more transparent and sustainable, they’re using hemp and resins and things like that for industrial uses. You mentioned hempcrete. Hemp insulation, that’s a big one too. So many uses, so you’re right. It’s kind of the hidden star, hidden game changer. Hemp.
Jim: Yeah, so thank you for letting me share that at the end here because I think that’s important for people to begin to think about and look into. On the New West Summit it’s pretty straight forward. It’s just www.newwestsummit.com.
Matthew: Well Jim, thanks so much for coming on today and educating us about your events. They sound like a lot of fun and good luck with Power Plant and the 420 Games.
Jim: Thank you so much. I’ve enjoyed being on your podcast.
Kristi Knoblich Palmer is co-founder and COO of Kiva Confections. Kiva is one of the top brands of infused products in California. Kiva’s quality, ingredients, and reputation is allowing Kristi and her husband to expand beyond the state lines of California. Listen in as Kristi describes the challenges and opportunities associated with infused products.
Learn more at:
[1:13] – What is Kiva Confections
[1:46] – Kristi’s background
[3:02] – What changed for cannabis businesses on election day
[3:52] – Market progression for Kiva Confections
[5:13] – The birth of Kiva Confections
[6:38] – Different categories of the California cannabis market
[10:21] – Cannabis prices in California
[13:22] – Kiva Confections’ product line
[16:13] – Kristi talks about a CBD only line
[18:21] – Concerns around CBD extracted from hemp
[21:22] – Kristi talks about two frustrations she would eliminate from operating a business
[23:38] – Kristi predicts the future of the edibles market in California
[25:00] – Kristi talks about expansion plans
[26:29] – Kristi answers some personal development questions
[31:37] – Contact details for Kiva Confections
What are the 5 trends that will disrupt the cannabis industry in the next five years?Find out with your free cheat sheet at https://www.cannainsider.com/trends
The citizens of California have cast their ballots and voted for recreational cannabis. As the market turns from medical to recreation, edibles companies that already have a footprint in brand recognition in California have an early adopter advantage. Here to give us the lay of the land in the California edibles market is Kristi Knoblich Palmer of Kiva Confections. Kristi, welcome to CannaInsider.
Kristi: Thanks for having me Matt.
Matthew: Kristi, give us a sense of geography. Where are you in the world today?
Kristi: Sure, so Kiva Confections is located in Northern California. So we’re in the Bay Area, and we serve the entire California marketplace. We also have our products available in Arizona and Nevada and just recently in Illinois.
Matthew: Yes, I read about that yesterday. Congratulations.
Kristi: Thank you.
Matthew: What is Kiva Confections? What do you make?
Kristi: Kiva Confections is a chocolate manufacturing company. So, we infuse medical cannabis with chocolate. We just stepped out of chocolate for the first time with a mint. And really our goal has been to kind of redefine what a cannabis confection is and make products that are safe and tested and delicious and also professionally packaged.
Matthew: Okay. And what’s your background? How did you get into this business and come to start Kiva?
Kristi: So, we don’t really necessarily have backgrounds in food or really even in business. My partner and I got started in 2010, the end of the year. And we graduated from photography school, needed another source of income so we started a cultivation in our garden shed, and we needed another way to stand out in the cannabis world. So, back then people were cultivating and providing their plants and their flowers to the dispensaries, but we really noticed that there wasn’t a safe, trusted, reliable, edible product that we ourselves would buy or that I might share with my friends or with my mother-in-law for example. So, we really identified edibles had a lot of potential and a lot of opportunity for improvement.
Matthew: Okay. So that explains the photography. So do you do your own photography for your website and everything like that?
Kristi: You know what, not so much anymore, but we used to.
Matthew: Okay. And can you give us an overview of what changed for cannabis businesses and consumers on election day back in November?
Kristi: So what changed in November is now we have, now in California we have recreational cannabis. So, at this point, and that was six months ago, so six months later we have the system for sales of recreational cannabis is not yet implemented. That is expected to come in January of 2018. So, what you can do right now, what has changed so far is adults over 21 can have cannabis in their possession and they can gift it to each other. So, we don’t have a sales system just yet, but it is legal to possess.
Matthew: Can you take us back to what the California market was like for Kiva when you started and then compare it to what it’s like now?
Kristi: In 2010, cannabis was very underground. People, businesses and patients alike were afraid for their safety. You didn’t want to be the company with a billboard next to the freeway or even a magazine ad in one of the cannabis publications. So, it was very underground. The foundation for businesses and for patients was a bit shaky to say the least. And so people didn’t really feel comfortable in the marketplace. And so I think now, fast forward six years, people are really starting to understand how cannabis is going to fit into our culture. It’s becoming more and more normalized, and we’ve got laws coming very soon, which those regulations and laws for cannabis businesses are going to give that sturdy foundation that we’ve been lacking for so long.
Matthew: You probably had one idea what the infused product business would be like when you started Kiva. It was just an idea and then a totally different idea once you’re in it day and day, in the trenches. How did it differ from what you thought it would be and what it’s actually like?
Kristi: Well when we started it certainly wasn’t easy. We started in our home kitchen and we worked as many hours as we had to to make deliveries and to make the product and to bring it to our dispensary customers. So, early on I knew it was going to be really hard and a lot of work. That part of it certainly hasn’t changed, but what has changed is I think the opportunity in the marketplace is incredible, and I don’t think I really ever could look that far into the future back then to really try and understand how big the marketplace was going to be.
Matthew: Now are you vertically integrated in grow your own plants? How does that work.
Kristi: So, we’re not vertically integrated. We do our own distribution, but we do not do our own cultivation. So, we work with cultivators to grow up to our standards and provide us with materials that meet the specs that we are happy to put into our products.
Matthew: Now the California legislators have created a lot of different categories of cannabis businesses. Can you tell us about a few of those and what you think about the different categories?
Kristi: Sure. The few main categories that stand out are cultivation, manufacturing, distribution, testing and dispensary, which includes delivery service as well. I think one that stands out, which I think is a great category, is the small manufacturer. And a lot of cities, for example, have a cottage license for small companies that are looking to get into the industry on a very small level. So, I think that is great for entrepreneurialism. I always think back to how when we got started, we were tiny, and that opportunity should be accessible by people of all levels.
The other one that’s unique is the distributor. The distributor is very controversial right now because in the medical laws it says that manufacturers but not also be able to distribute. One of Kiva’s ways of getting into the marketplace was both manufacturing its products and doing distribution. So, we’re fighting really hard to protect our ability to also distribute our own products and the products of other companies.
Matthew: Yeah, you say it’s controversial. I’ve heard other people use not so neutral words, like they swear when they talk about it and they’re frustrated because it’s like, hey this is not plutonium here. We don’t need a separate category of distribution. Do you think that’s just going to add cost to the market?
Kristi: Yeah. Cost is a big concern, also stifling innovation. So, Kiva for example, we may try out a new flavor and we want to take that flavor to maybe ten of our dispensary customers in the market and see what think. Do they like the flavor? Collect their feedback. But if you’re going through a large manufacturer, sorry a large distributor, there isn’t a lot of incentive for them to perform those types of tests for you. Also they’re working on a much larger scale. So, if you’re a small company and all you can serve are ten dispensaries to start off with, what distributor is going to be able to bring you into their fold if you’re on such a small scale and they’re on such a large scale.
So, I see that allowing manufacturers, I think they can hold the distribution license. I don’t think the license category needs to go away. They should just also be able to do both functions, and I really feel very passionate that that’s the right way for the industry to grow and to flourish, and I think it’s the best way for us to move forward.
Matthew: Are legislators getting that feedback or is this pretty much set in stone that there’s going to be this distributor level or category?
Kristi: They are getting the feedback. I think the opposition was a little bit louder and came before us. So, a lot of the legislators that you speak with they haven’t necessarily heard our side of the argument yet. So, we’re still kind of fighting that uphill battle, but I think, I really feel we’re on the winning side of the argument, and we have the interest of the greater industry and that’s starting to catch on with the legislators.
Matthew: How do you feel about the price of cannabis, particularly in California where it’s such a big market? Do you feel anecdotally that it’s going down at the wholesale level or what’s happening to prices, under pressure?
Kristi: Pricing is going to be a really interesting thing to follow over the next few years while regulations are unveiled. So, I think if California continued on a path that it’s on without regulations we would see cannabis continue to fall in price, but I think the industry is in for a really big shock come January 2018 when regulations do roll out. There are a lot of regulations that are very strict and will require some additional talent to manage those. Some of the elements in track and trace, for example, or in inventory reconciliation. So, I think the price of cannabis is going to potentially go up for a short time, while regulations are being put into place, and people and businesses are figuring out how to handle those new costs.
Matthew: Okay, so at least initially it will rise, then maybe the dust will settle and the dynamic might change, but that’s interesting. We saw some of that in Colorado too when there was growers that met the testing requirements and they were able to charge a premium for a period of time, and then for six months thereafter maybe then the price started to plunge. So, I will be interested to see what happens. Particularly California has so much capital, so much technology and such a strong agriculture background, the confluence of those three things, in the long term, who knows about the short term or immediate term, I’m concerned it’s just going to really go down. Thoughts around that.
Kristi: Yeah. I think if the prices went down, that I would hope that quality would stay steady or continue to increase. So I think if prices fell, but quality stayed or got better, then that would be okay. Also if cost goes down, that means it’s more accessible to more people, and I think that’s a great thing for cannabis in general because it really has the ability to help so many people. So, if more people had access to it, I think that would be okay too.
Matthew: I want to hear more about your products, but before we do that I have one confession. Twice I did this at your booth at the Marijuana Business Conference in Las Vegas. I would go to your booth. I would get a sample of chocolate, then as to not look like I’m eating too much of your samples, I would boomerang around the whole Expo Center and then come back and take another one like I was coming for the first time.
Kristi: No problem.
Matthew: I just had to get that off my chest. So, tell us a little bit more about your products; your bars and mints and bites and so forth.
Kristi: Sure. So, we started the company with our Kiva Bars. We started with a 60 mg milk and dark chocolate bars. About six or so months after that we didn’t double, but we tripled the strength for 180 mg bar, and we added some really nice and interesting flavors to those to enhance the taste and kind of cover up the negative effects that you can get from adding so much THC into your products. Shortly after that we came out with our Terra Bites, which are the chocolate covered espresso beans, also the milk chocolate covered blueberries. Those two products are our best sellers currently. Then just recently we launched the mints. So, it’s our Petra Mint product, and it’s a 2.5 mg of THC, so it’s really part of our strategy to encourage micro dosing and the ability for the consumer to control their dose all the way down to that really small amount of 2.5 mg.
Matthew: Tell us more about the mints. That seems like a great discreet option. How did you arrive at creating a mint?
Kristi: So, the mint came because well when we launched the Terra Blueberries we wanted to take micro dosing to the next step. We also wanted to have a product available for consumers that wouldn’t melt and that was even more portable, and actually the equipment that we used for the mints, they’re molded on both sides in a dye. So it really allows for the most amount of accuracy in the dosing. So, the mints are awesome because you can take that tin, put it in your book bag or your purse without worrying about it heating up too much and melting. And then really the ability to dose yourself, just again, to that right amount. Not too much, not too little. It’s really part of a new way for cannabis consumers to use cannabis, especially those ones who are brand new to the industry and have never tried cannabis before.
Matthew: Yeah. You mentioned carrying them in your backpack or purse. I also use a sequence fanny pack, which also is a third option that you didn’t mention. Would it work for that as well?
Kristi: Yes, it will look great in that.
Matthew: Okay good. So, a lot of people are really interested in CBD and for good reason. Any thoughts about a CBD only line or something like that?
Kristi: Yeah, we get a lot of requests for different CBD ratio products. So, yes we’re always considering the feedback that we get and how we can next incorporate that into another new product line. So, we’ve got something that, I can’t promise that it’s going to launch by the end of the year, although I sure hope it does, but we’re looking more and more into CBD and ratios.
Matthew: Okay. Yeah, I mean I hear a lot about the one-to-one. It’s hard to know what the ratio is exactly what people want. How do you think about that? Do you just look in the marketplace? Do you talk to customers, talk to dispensaries and say what are people asking for, or do you just kind of go with your gut there?
Kristi: Yeah so, we definitely ask our dispensaries and our team internally, as well as patients for their feedback and try to really test the waters and see what the right product would be. For Espresso and our Ginger Bars, we landed on a one-to-one ratio because feedback was telling us that we needed to add CBD, but one fear was that if we added more CBD than THC, that there’s still a learning curve with what CBD does in the marketplace. So, it’s a little bit of a buzz word right now. But we didn’t want consumers that didn’t understand CBD to buy the products and be disappointed because it had a lot of CBD in it and they didn’t feel anything. That’s still something that happens as people try CBD, and they go, oh it doesn’t work. I didn’t feel anything. And you’re like, well that actually means it’s working, but if you don’t have any kind of pain or inflammation, then you may not notice anything at all. So, that was part of the reasoning behind that one-to-one was to get people introduced to CBD, but still feel the effects.
Matthew: Now I know there’s people that are concerned about CBD being extracted from hemp and we’re not sure where that hemp comes from or what circumstances it was grown in. Do you have any concerns about that, maybe from competitors or just in the marketplace in general?
Kristi: Yeah, definitely. CBD extracted from hemp, there isn’t anything wrong with CBD coming from hemp, but what the real problem is is where the hemp plants are grown. Hemp plants are put in the ground in places where the soil quality has deteriorated. They do a great job of leeching out of the elements from the soil, both good and bad. So, what we’ve done with our CBD products is we sourced our CBD from California grown cannabis plants. That way we can go up to the farms. We can dig our hands in the soil. We can meet the farmers and make sure that our CBD doesn’t include some of those chemicals that you are afraid that they might can contain when they’re from another country.
Matthew: What is the farming community, I assume this is Northern California, is it Mendocino, where is it in Northern California? Is it Emerald Triangle, something like that?
Kristi: Yeah. So our plants are from the Emerald Triangle from Mendocino, more specifically.
Matthew: Okay. So, what’s the scene like up there? I hear a lot about it. Is it a pretty active community? Is there a lot of great things going on?
Kristi: Extremely active community. Cannabis is the number one source of revenue for those communities up there. So, it’s a very cannabis-centric community. It’s stunningly beautiful up there. It’s incredible. When you go and visit you wonder why you live where you do, where there’s traffic and noise and you don’t have those beautiful sleeping views and the mountains. It’s incredible up there.
Matthew: Gosh, I hear you because sometimes, I’m in a big city right now, and sometimes I’m like this does not seem like an environment for a primate. It seems like we want to be out running around, barefoot, looking at the ocean and being around trees instead of this artificial construction. So, you can kind of feel your blood pressure drop when you get out into the country a little bit.
Kristi: You really do. You really do. I mean, just thinking about it now gives me chills. I mean, it’s so beautiful up there.
Matthew: And you’ve got such good weather. It’s so nice in Northern California. Anyway, got off on a tangent here. I’m just curious about some of the frustrations because there’s a lot of compliance and a lot of, I’ll just call them hassles. I mean you can’t just focus on creating a great product. There’s a lot of hassles you have to put up with in the cannabis industry, and I like to highlight the hassles because if there’s entrepreneurs out there listening that can solve people’s pain points or a problem, everybody wins. If you could wave a magic want and eliminate one frustration you have about operating your business right now, what would that be?
Kristi: I can only choose one, are you sure?
Matthew: Yeah, for now.
Kristi: Well I’m going to pick two. The first frustration is the one that everybody, it’s the low hanging fruit frustration, which is banking. So, banking is like top headache for absolutely everybody, but that’s what everybody is going to say. So, put that one aside. The second one, if I could wave my magic wand and fast forward us a year, where we had regulations that are rolled out, that would be incredible. Because we keep seeing proposed regulations. We have the governor’s trailer bill, budget trailer bill. So, there’s all these potential regulations being thrown up. And as soon as you see one set of rules, everybody just focuses on that and attacks that and you put all of your energy into giving your opinion and writing whitepapers and trying to give feedback, and it’s a lot. Just to see that those regulations may not even be the ones that end up winning in the end. So, if I could wave my magic wand and fast forward us by a year so that we finally have our regulations, which is basically like our playbook. If we know what we can and can’t do, then we’ll do that. We’re the cannabis industry, we’re really good at adapting, in my opinion. So, we’ll adapt, we’ll carve our businesses out around these new regulations and we’ll be compliant, but that would save me a lot of headaches and a lot of sleepless nights.
Matthew: Gosh, I hear you. One thing I don’t feel like the regulators and legislators have in mind when they do these things is that it prevents business owners from investing. You’re holding off until the dust settles a little bit and you say, well when it’s a little clearer I can then invest with confidence. So, you kind of invest as much as you need to, but not everything you would if there was clarity. So, I think that’s something they could think about a little bit.
Kristi: Yeah, certainly. Exactly.
Matthew: So I’m going to ask you a question. What do you think the edibles market will look like in California in five years because it’s a lot the last five years, what is it going to look like five years from now?
Kristi: In five years from now, I think that, as you mentioned before, the dust will have settled and there will be better products on the market in terms of quality and labeling and the testing procedures that companies are using. So, I think that in five years we’ll have a more professional edibles industry, which will, I think, cater to the patients and the consumers that are purchasing them, and it will also really open up the category. And edibles still have that stigma, people still picture that brownie, Saran wrapped with an Avery label that says, “10X”. So, edibles still have that stigma being unreliable and unsafe. So, so I think in five years we will have made some major headway in educating our consumer base on what the new edible is and how to use them so that you can have a controlled and enjoyable experience.
Matthew: And what are your expansion plans to other markets? We talked a little bit about Illinois. What does that look like?
Kristi: Yeah, so we’re continuing to expand the brand to other states. It’s frustrating, but that’s the way it has to be done. Because if you were a regular chocolate manufacturing company, you would have one hub and one manufacturing hub say in California, maybe one more somewhere else in the country on the East Coast or the Midwest, so that you could serve your markets appropriately. So, it’s very expensive and resource intensive and time consuming right now for companies to expand outside of the state that they’re currently in because you have to manufacture the product in that state. Not only do you have to manufacture it there, you also have to comply with the regulations in each state. So, it really feels like you’re starting a new company in every state that you move in to, even if you find a partner there to work with. It’s no simple, easy task. So, I see out of state expansion as being one of those things that maintains top of the challenges list, until we have federal regulations that allow us to ship across state lines.
Matthew: Kristi, I like to ask some personal development questions to help listeners get to know you better on a personal level. With that, is there a book that has had a big impact in your life or way of thinking that you would like to share with listeners?
Kristi: You know what, I’m just over halfway through with a book on Elon Musk. So I just picked it up, but it’s a great book. Elon Musk is very inspiring in his way of doing things. He doesn’t have the best reputation as a, let’s call it, a nice boss, but he certainly knows how to get things done. And he’s really on a mission. And so I’m looking at the way that he runs his business, not necessarily modeling myself after all of it, but I find that book very inspiring because he just has a straightforward way of getting done what he thinks is the most important thing, which when you’re running a business you’ll get lots of opinions from a lot of people. But if you don’t maintain that clear vision as a leader, it’s really easy to get off track.
Matthew: Yeah, and almost lost everything a couple times, and now he’s got, in addition to Space X and Tesla, he’s got the boring company that’s boring huge holes underneath Los Angeles to alleviate traffic and a neuro lace which is going to connect the human brain to software and hardware to expand our capabilities. I mean the guy is… we got to clone him somehow. That last one is a little scary though. I hope it turns out okay. I don’t know it sounds cyborgish.
Kristi: Pretty incredible.
Matthew: Is there a tool, web-based or otherwise, that you consider vital to your day-to-day productivity?
Kristi: Oh man, I would be nothing without my iCal calendar. I would get nothing done if I did not have my calendar. We have a series of shared calendars, one that my business partner and husband use. So I can throw anything on the calendar that we both need to attend. We have shared calendars throughout our facility and throughout our company, specifically for tours and for project management and for marketing. So, yeah, if it’s not on my calendar, it doesn’t exist. So, yes, my calendar is super important.
Matthew: And reminders are just as important for me. It’s like I need to be peppered with reminders that something is going to happen. I feel like I’ve outsourced my brain to Google somehow.
Kristi: Yes, totally, exactly. It’s like my phone dies and it’s out of commission, I don’t know what I would do.
Matthew: Now are you raising capital from investors at all right now?
Kristi: At this current moment, we are not. Our company has been bootstrapped up to this point, but with regulations coming in 2018, we’re going to have to rethink our approach and be able to grow and not miss out on opportunities. So, potentially by the end of the year, we’ll be looking to bring in some investment.
Matthew: That’s really cool because when I go to pitch forums or different places or see companies raising money it’s usually for brand new startups. It’s not for companies that are already successful. This would give an investor a lot more confidence, like oh here’s a business model that works. They just want to grow it, whereas when you’re starting from zero there’s a much bigger question mark like will this company make even one sale or a profitable sale. So this is nice. I’m sure you’re going to get a different level of investor interested when that time comes.
Kristi: Yeah, I think so. It’s really an amazing time for investors to get into the industry. I’ve got a lot of questions around that lately. People asking is it too soon, is it too late, and I’m surprised when people even suggest that it’s too late because the opportunity. We’re barely at the starting line.
Matthew: It’s like the first day, yeah.
Kristi: Yeah exactly. So, I think once regulations hit, that will really be the beginning for investors to get into the industry. There’s a lot of people, colleagues and competitors in the industry that are actively looking for capital and can’t get enough capital to accomplish what they want and get ready for 2018 and all the growth that we’re about to encounter. So, now is the time. The opportunity is really just beginning.
Matthew: Now, if there’s any accredited investors out there listening, should they just go to the contact area of your website, if they want to reach out to you about investing? What’s the best way?
Kristi: Yeah the best way to reach us is on our website, www.kivaconfections.com. Yeah, they can fill out the… send us an email at email@example.com or we have a contact page on there as well. Yeah, that’s also where listeners can find us online and find all of our dispensary contacts that we work with, where they can find our stores or our products in stores.
Matthew: Great, well Kristi, thanks so much for coming on the show today. We really appreciate it. Good luck to you and your husband, and I can’t wait to see you again at the next Marijuana Business Conference and Expo. I might just put out a chair or a chaise lounge and just nibble bits instead of pretending I’m not coming back and eating over and over.
Kristi: Come on by. I love giving people samples, and no one is eating more chocolate at the booth than I am. That is guaranteed.
Matthew: Well thanks, and best of luck to you.
Kristi: Thanks so much Matt. I really appreciate the opportunity.
Matt Gaboury is head of Design and Systems for CalyxKing. Listen in as Matt describes the most high-tech and efficient grow rooms he creates. He also describes the grow room of the future.
[0:59] – What is Calyx King
[1:57] – Matt’s background
[3:21] – Matt talks about what his work entails
[4:57] – Planning a cannabis grow facility
[11:02] – Biggest mistakes when planning a cannabis grow facility
[13:55] – Matt talks about technology in optimizing workflow
[16:53] – Matt talks about carbon neutral growing
[21:56] – Using intellectual property to help clients
[22:44] – Matt talks about mistakes amateurs make in writing SOPs
[23:31] – Matt’s partners
[24:24] – Grow room of the future
[27:34] – Pursuing a cultivation license
[28:52] – Matt answers some personal development questions
[33:20] – Contact details for Calyx King
Learn more at:
Free Cheat Sheet
The Five Trends That Will Disrupt The Cannabis Industry
How do you design a cannabis cultivation plan that does everything you need to optimize plant health and profit out of the gate? Matt Gaboury from Calyx King is going to help us answer that question today. Matt, welcome to CannaInsider.
Matt: Thank you so much for having me.
Matthew: Give us a sense of geography. Where in the world are you today?
Matt: Today I’m in my hometown of Seattle, Washington.
Matthew: Very cool and I’m in Vienna, Austria today.
Matt: I wish I could switch with you.
Matthew: Before we dive in on everything you do, can you tell us what Calyx King is?
Matt: Yes absolutely. So, Calyx King is a seed to sale service provider. We are comprised of various different professionals who offer consulting and professional services related to the cannabis, primarily, production and processing. Our main focus is helping individuals in new and beginning marketplaces enter into the new regulated industry through application support, the creation of (1.29 unclear) and employee manuals, as well as what my primary focus is, which is the design, the permitting and the help facilitating the build of these cannabis production processing facilities.
Matthew: And I really want to get into the permitting and specifically the build too and doing that the right way, but before we do that, give us a little bit about your background. What were you doing before Calyx King and how did you come to get started in this?
Matt: Absolutely. We started Calyx King back in 2012. However, prior to that, I was always a bit of cannabis enthusiast. It’s something that’s been around into my life for pretty much as long as I can remember. From inception, my parents were very into cannabis as well, so it was something that has naturally passed along to me. I was an avid user for a very long time, and then I started growing very small scale, probably a little over ten years ago with this one tiny light in my basement.
From there I went back to school for architecture and almost immediately started applying those tools and tips of the trade to designing and building cannabis production facilities. It started off with my own basement by making that a more efficient design and me helping out a friend or two in their basement. And then that evolved into a smaller garage and then into a warehouse and then into some smaller, light industrial type buildings and then we’ve had the opportunity in the last five or six years to grow that in scale, to now have the opportunity to design about 2 million square feet for people around the United States.
Matthew: Wow. Now if we were to look over your shoulder as you work day-to-day, what does your work look like?
Matt: That would completely depend on the actual day, if you were a fly on the wall. It’s definitely a very variable schedule, depending on what’s going on in that particular period. At Calyx we’re very responsive to the rules and regulations that are being released all around the United States, and therefore our business is very much attuned to those changes. So as a new marketplace opens up, let’s say for example most recently Pennsylvania and Florida, we get a big influx of individuals looking for existence in those new states.
So a lot of times my day is dependent upon what is actually happening around the United States. But to kind of boil it down in basic terms, I spend a lot of time in front of my computer and using programs like Auto CAD and REV IT to help design and model these facilities. I’m a really big proponent of pre-planning. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. So we definitely spend a lot of time doing site visits and a lot of hands on with our clients in order to make sure that we design the best and most appropriate facility for them.
Matthew: When you’re starting to plan for a cannabis cultivation facility, can you give us a sense of how you’re thinking about it, what’s your top considerations and challenges are in your mind and maybe what lenses you’re using to think about it? Because I’m sure the way you’re thinking about it and the way someone who is listening to this right now are very different. So let us borrow your brain for a moment and just think about when there’s a new project. What are you thinking about when you’re thinking about the cultivation?
Matt: Sure. First and foremost it comes down to the site and the location, because no two sites are the same. No two projects really start off on the same design foot. So you really need to start there. You need to start with that foundation. The foundation isn’t really the foundation of the building. No pun intended. You’re looking at the environment conditions, it’s really important looking at the site characteristics, what the opportunities there are, what some of the limitations may be and that could be the actual site itself, the topography, the sun orientation.
In addition, something that I highly recommend people looking into is also your utility providers. What sort of power, water is coming to that site? What sort of sewage requirements are going to be necessary and what some of those permitting and code hurdles may be, because every site has a different building department and every building department is also slightly different in how they look at cannabis facilities. And then in addition to that, we also really like to start at the top level of the business strategy. So, no two cannabis businesses are exactly the same in what they produce, the strains that they grow and the methodologies that they use in order to accomplish that.
So, we really like to start with that specific business’s goals. For example, if your goal is to produce, let’s say, CO2 for vaporization and that is your main product offering, then the way in which you design that facility is going to be much different than if your main product offering is a high class dried flower product. And that’s going to come down and dictate the size of the space and that’s going to dictate the flow. That’s going to dictate a lot of different design elements. So, to wrap that back up, I definitely encourage all people to start off at the very macro level, whether that be the macro level of the site or the macro level of your business strategy and then reverse engineer your plan to make it appropriate for what you’re trying to do.
Matthew: Okay. So, that’s kind of stage one there, and then you kind of look at the limitations. You look at the foundation. You look at utilities, all those things. What’s your optimal cultivation facility look like? You’ve started with that as your foundation. These are all the things I need to know. I have to fill in all the blanks so I know what I’m dealing with and then how do you go about creating the after photo from the before?
Matt: Once you get a lot of those parameters and once you have quantifications on a lot of those elements that we just talked about, then you kind of have your playbook. And once you have your playbook you can start to design what is the most appropriate for those different conditions. Like I said earlier, that’s all going to depend on what you’re trying to do. And because as you and as a lot of the listeners are probably familiar with, there’s many different ways to go about skinning a cat when it comes to cannabis production. Even from the methodology that you incorporate, whether that be a greenhouse, whether that’s full outdoor or a highly tuned indoor environment.
So let’s say you go with an indoor structure, you’re in an environment where that’s necessary, or even a hybrid greenhouse. What I would then encourage people to do is look at the systems that are going to be associated with that because every building type has a different set of systems that work the best for that building. So for example, the HVAC or the cooling or heating system that you may put in a greenhouse is going to be very different than the system that you would choose to go into a building. And even within that building itself, depending upon that building’s insulation values, depending upon its materials and its finishes, that could also affect those systems too.
So starting off with what that angle is, then that helps you define what that ideal facility is. Other things that I really encourage people to think about during this part of the design phase is efficiencies in resources and efficiencies in movement. Those two things are very big when you’re starting that design process, because ultimately those are two things that are very difficult to go back and change in the future. So when I say that, it’s really looking at that design and how it’s laid out to maximize the use of your employee’s time, to maximize their use of their movement around the facility as well as, like I said earlier, to look at those resources as well, your energy usage, your water usage and look if there’s ways that you can reduce that through either implementing architectural elements like regenerating power or more efficient fixtures or looking at methodologies with your local county in order to reduce that.
So a lot of times they’ll let you do off peak hours to reduce your load. They’ll potentially have incentives for certain technologies and certain equipments that you may be able to put in, but all of this is required to be done first before you build the building. Like I said earlier, it’s really difficult to go back and change those things. So in order to create that optimal cultivation facility, having a little bit of pre-thought in design goes a very long way.
Matthew: Now everybody, not everybody, but most people coming into the industry are new. Maybe some people are listening right now that are creating their own grow facility or they’re going to be soon or they’re considering applying for a license and they don’t have an architectural background or just practical growing practice. If you were to kind of stack rank the number one, two and three mistakes that people make when considering how to make a grow facility, is it that easy to put them into buckets as the most common and second most common?
Matt: Yeah. We definitely see a few general mistakes that people go through, and I would say that the biggest ones are just the transitioning of scale. A lot of people now are scaling up from what I would say the hobby scale or the light commercial scale to something that’s more industrial. And when you go and make that jump there’s a lot that’s lost in translation. So I really encourage people to look into the different more industrial equipment that can be at your disposal when you get to that larger scale, and don’t hold on to those old concepts, because those old concepts are only at the small scale. As soon as you try to replicate that at the larger scale, you’re going to be losing a lot of efficiencies and you’re also not going to be capitalizing on all of the industrial scaled materials and equipment that are at your disposal then.
In addition to that I would say another big bucket that people generally fall into is not considering what the local code and permit restrictions are. Because every single municipality has a slightly different perspective on their building codes, nevertheless how cannabis is being perceived and how cannabis is being implied to those building codes, there is almost always very specific limitations, and that can be limitations to your site. That can be limitations on how and what you can build, and those are all things you need to be considering first and foremost. I’ve seen a lot of people go down a path of action that they thought that they could accomplish only to then be delayed and cycled by the code or the inspector because they didn’t properly look at the code and the permitting restrictions prior to trying to implement that design.
Matthew: Good points. So people, they might have two or three plants and they think oh I can scale up now to hundreds and it’s as different than riding a bike and then the space shuttle. So there’s all these ideas of plant management and managing a much larger amount of inputs and outputs that just change the whole game entirely. So people struggle with that when the scale changes. I can see that. I mean in terms of plant management, when you get into much larger grows, I mean is there anything interesting happening with the technology there? I’ve heard people use flood tables. I’ve heard where people have these rolling tables and little, not assembly lines, but the way that kind of tables work together to manage everything from trimming to watering to curing and so forth. Do you see anything like that in terms of optimizing the workflow?
Matt: Yes absolutely. It first starts off with that layout. So to make sure that you’re designing something that has the proper flow to it. I think that’s just drawn from general manufacturing principles. Looking at efficiencies that happen in Japanese manufacturing and drawing some of those principles in how the management structure is laying out not only the physical flow but also the management flow of those materials. And then some of that technology that really helps with that. You mentioned a couple of those. The big ones for me are a good ERP solution or good inventory management software.
When you’re at a small scale it’s really easy for your master grower to keep track I think of a lot of these things and I would say that most people who are at a smaller scale or a smaller commercial scale are doing a lot of these things either through their head, just keeping these notes internally or they’re writing them down on paper. It’s not as organized as is necessary for when you go to that larger scale. When you’re at that larger scale, and especially in these regulated industries, all the plants have to be tagged, all the plants have to be recorded and you have to very accurately manage that as that plant goes through its lifecycle.
There’s where having a software solution that can manage that and automate some of those things, I feel it is huge and really reduces a lot of that human error and a lot of that thrown in on your upper management. In addition, I think that there’s a lot of great technology that you can utilize within the rooms to reduce your employee output, as well as, make that management of a large group of plants a lot easier. One of the things that you had mentioned that I think is great are the rolling benches, rolling agricultural benches. We definitely recommend those, whether it’s indoor/outdoor greenhouse, because it maximizes your footprint and it allows you to get more plants into a smaller space.
In addition to that I think an automated watering system. So, whether you use an ebb and flow or drip system, some sort of automated watering system that you can reduce the amount of hand watering that’s necessary is going to be huge in reducing your employee costs. Because watering represents probably one of the largest operational costs once you get to a large plant count. And then in addition it’s going to enable consistency, and when you talk about some of the pitfalls of large quantities of plant management one of the biggest ones is consistency. Consistency in the amount of water each one of those plants gets, consistency in the amount of love each one of those plants get. So, by automating some of those systems, it gives your farmers more time to actually focus on plant health and plant maintenance.
Matthew: Is it possible to have carbon neutral growing?
Matt: I absolutely believe that that’s not only possible, but that should be something that we all strive toward. One of my personal passions is sustainability in cannabis. Right now we are just energy hogs because the profit margins are so high and a lot of these efficiencies there hasn’t been a necessity to have to find those or to have to utilize those. However, I think that there’s going to be big negative media backlash that’s going to be associated with all the power we use, and I think that anything that we can do to not only stifle that is going to help the industry in general, but it’s also going to help each individual proprietor reduce their costs. So I’m a big fan of trying to utilize any sort of sustainable or green methods into the growing facility.
The biggest, and it may sound to be the easiest, is really just making sure that your operational flow is as streamlined as possible. This goes back to what we were just talking about with an appropriate layout and design. If you can design that manufacturing process to be as streamlined and as smooth as possible, then you reduce a lot of your employee waste, and that’s the biggest one that almost any business can do. You don’t have to go out there and buy any expensive technology. All you need to do is really put a lot of thought into how your employees move around and handle your materials. Let’s say somebody has to take an extra ten steps every time they perform a task and they perform that task multiple times a day, then that ten steps could extrapolate to thousands of steps by the end of the year and that is thousands of minutes of wasted time and ultimately a less efficient facility.
So that first and foremost is just how you look at your employees and your employee resources. In addition to that there’s a lot of new, exciting technology and equipment that can be utilized into these growing facilities. I think one of the most exciting ones and one of the most easy is just all the new efficient lighting fixtures that are out in the marketplace. Conventionally, up until about five years ago, we all grew with either 600 watts, 1,000 watts HPS fixtures and it was quite typical to use 1,000 watt metal highlights for your veg. Now there’s a wide range of plasma, LED, induction, (19.17 unclear), all these different fixtures that have a very comparable par and lighting spectrum but have a reduced wattage. And they’re really easy to get, they’re really easy to switch out into your facility. They usually don’t require a lot of addition infrastructure because you’re actually using a lesser load. And addition to that there’s usually incentives or rebates being offered by a lot of the local municipalities to help reduce the initial cost for that business in going and purchasing those and implementing them into their facility.
Besides that there are all sorts of different, more effective and green strategies, whether that be the poly covering on your greenhouse or different feeding systems, different HVAC systems that are more effective. Another big one is renewable energy sources. So we’re definitely seeing a big push now for wind, geothermic, as well as solar renewable energy being implemented in these facilities. And then the last concept I like to talk about is called districting, and that’s basically using your grow facility to help aid your community around you. And what we’re seeing and what we’re trying to kind of design the wave of the future is instead of a grow facility that is pushed out into the perimeters and buffered away from everyone else, they actually start to implement these into more of a community environment where you could, let’s say, purchase on large solar array that powers maybe your grow facility during certain hours when the lights are on, but it can also power let’s say some apartments or some mixed use commercial areas.
You could also then share the heat, so the heat that’s generated, the excess heat that’s generated by your light fixtures could be shuttled over to let’s say your living areas, your living buildings and then used as radiant ambient heating throughout the facility. And then this whole acts as an ecosystem, and if that can occur, then reaching carbon neutral is even easier because then you’re not just alone by yourself at the single facility, but you’re actually sharing some of your responsibilities with your neighbors around you and there’s a lot of synergies that can happen to allow that carbon neutral effort to be even easier.
Matthew: Do you use any specific intellectual property to help your clients?
Matt: Yes, I think that that’s something that we’ve been developing over years is some specific IP that we have. A lot of that is specific to the growing methodologies. We’ve definitely developed what I think is a pretty unique way of production and processing that goes back to that manufacturing streamline that we talked about earlier. So we have just developed that process as well as the equipment associated with it into our own Calyx King package, so to speak. It’s not anything that you couldn’t go out there and get yourself. It’s more how you put all these different components together I think is the IP that we offer.
Matthew: In terms of creating standard operating procedures of SOPs, where do you see amateurs fall short in terms of thinking how a cultivation facility ought to be run?
Matt: I think a lot of times it is because people are trying to capture what they’re currently doing and not trying to theorize about how it’s done better. I think when you write SOPs that gives you the prime opportunity to do so. Part of SOPs is capturing what is currently happening, but like I said I think it’s this prime opportunity to expand upon that and to make it a more ideal situation. So I would definitely encourage people when they do write those SOPs try to think about how to better that process and how to then standardize that in a way that makes it for everyone.
Matthew: What about your partners at Calyx King? What do they do?
Matt: I’m very fortunate to be partners with a very diverse group of professionals. We are comprised of some lawyers, operational managers, long time horticulturists. I run the architectural and design department in which we have two other trained architects, as well as several individuals from the construction and project management field. So, we are very fortunate to have a pretty wide spectrum of skillsets underneath our roof.
Matthew: You talked about some of the latest developments in technology for grow rooms, but what do you think the grow room of the future will look like? You mentioned districting, which is a unique idea I haven’t heard before. Is there any other vision you have about how the grow room of the future will look?
Matt: Yeah, I definitely think the grow room of the future in my perspective or what I would love to see is that carbon neutral grow room where you are using as little resources as possible, and it’s as automated as can be. So, we’re definitely seeing some very good advancements in that technology in order to accomplish that in the last, I would say, three to five years. And I really think that now it’s just the process of putting all that together and having the capital to do it right properly from the beginning. I think a lot of people getting into the industry are hamstrung and don’t have the capital that’s necessary a lot of times to perform some of these more expensive methods or purchase some of this more capital expensive equipment. But it definitely goes a long way and I think that’s the grow rooms of the future and the grow facilities of the future are becoming much more sophisticated. They’re starting with a lot more capital so they can accomplish these things. They’re not having to be revised.
They’re starting off with all the proper mechanisms at first, and they’re being able to then maximize that. So, my ideal grow room, and I’ll be a little more specific with it, my ideal grow room would be a system that is being cooled in a passive manner and heated in a passive manner. So, ideally that would be located in a geographic area where you could capitalize on geothermic loop in order to accomplish that. The grow methodology would be something that was without soil or without a soiless medium. So what my preference is is deep water culture and an organic deep water culture. So in an organic deep water culture setup you could use very little water and very little nutrients, so that reduces both of those loads.
Then this would be a facility that would be a hybrid. So you would be able to utilize the sun’s natural solar radiation. So it has a roof systems that has the ability to control its opaqueness. And then lastly, you would have an automated basically moving system so that your components are then automated on track moving through your facility. Therefore you’re reducing any sort of employee resources of having to transplant and then change those plants as they are going through that lifecycle. This is something that you see very commonly in really large agriculture with the moving bench system. So my grow room of the future you would be utilizing the very top pieces of technology from all of your different categories and seamlessly tying those together to have the most, in my opinion, efficient and effective room and production facility.
Matthew: That’s fascinating. If there’s listeners thinking about pursuing a cultivation license, what are the most important things they should do to make that happen, in your opinion?
Matt: Yeah, I think it’s going to come down to the individual state in which they reside, in which they are looking to get that license. And I say that only because all these different license processes are so different, depending on where you live. But once you actually look at that and look at what the specifics are for your local, then I would start to look at your site. I think your site is so important. I always tell people that it takes three things to really be successful in the cultivation side of things and that is you need the right IP and the right gardeners, number one. You need the right genetics and strains, number two. And then you need the right tools in order to accomplish that, number three. And your building and your site is your number one tool.
So you definitely want to put a lot of emphasis on where that is and making sure that that’s proper because if you don’t have that right tool, then you’re not going to be able to maximize your strain and your farmer is not going to be able to do his job properly.
Matthew: Matt, I like to ask a few personal development questions to let people get to know you a bit. With that, is there a book that has had a big impact on your life or your way of thinking that you would like to share with listeners?
Matt: Wow, you know, there’s a book. It may not be applicable to cannabis or to growing as some may expect, but it has been very influential in just the business management and the effectiveness for me and it’s a book called the Effective Executive. I think a lot of individual… and the reason I read this book is because what I see a lot, talking with people all over the United States who are interested in getting into this industry, it’s a lot of new business owners. It’s a lot of people starting a business for the first time or a lot of people looking to expand their business. One of the most difficult elements that I’ve seen people struggle with is just that management from general business terms and general business perspectives. The Effective Executive has been a very good book for myself to be able to tackle some of those general business ideas and to do things in a better sense and in a more effective sense as a manager of a corporation and a company.
Matthew: Yeah that’s a great suggestion. We could all use any advice there possible. Is there one thing that sticks out to you that you use often from that book?
Matt: Yes I think it is how do you properly attain your goals, and it gives some really good pointers. Especially about writing things down, creating succinct and smart business plans. Being able to isolate things, being able to not what I call chase butterflies, which I think a lot of people run into in this industry because there’s so many opportunities. But to really look at how to focus and target your efforts in what you want to do to accomplish your goals in the best way possible.
Matthew: Is there a tool, web-based or otherwise, that you consider vital to your day-to-day productivity?
Matt: There are several tools that I use that are specific to the architecture side of things that are indispensable, but may not be as applicable just for normal people getting into the industry and those are some of the more architectural programs, Auto CAD REV IT. We do a lot with Bin Modeling, which I feel has definitely revolutionized our ability to plan these facilities. Bin Modeling is building information modeling, so it’s basically in the computer in a 3D environment. You are putting in as many parameters as possible. So, we actually like to create the whole building inside the computer. We put the actual mechanical systems in there and then through certain programs and algorithms, you can run simulations on your building.
So, you can run heating simulations. You can run your light simulations to see how that affects your insulation for example or your vapor barrier. And you can really start to find any sort of bugs or hiccups in the computer before you actually build it, and we’ve found that that’s been very advantageous in saving money in the field.
Matthew: Wow, so it creates a simulation of what the live finished building would look like and how it works.
Matt: Exactly, and it really helps too with testing concepts with a lot of things. One of the major architectural elements that we have been doing a lot of advancement on in the last five years is the HVAC and the environmental condition controls because there’s so many different ways to go about it. There’s forced air, there’s chill systems, there’s VRS and they all on paper do something very similar, but they all do it in a different way. So, it’s been really helpful, especially with that to be able to model these different HVAC systems into a building to see how that influences those interior environmental controls, as well as its impact on the electricity usage of the building or you can even structurally be able to model these things. So you could model your rooftop unit and that could tell you structurally what additional supports you may need and then what the cost associated with that is. So it just allows us to flush out a lot of those design concepts before actually having to put a hammer on a nail out in the field.
Matthew: Great, great information here Matt. I appreciate that. Before we close, can you tell listeners how they can connect with you and learn more about Calyx King?
Matt: Yeah, absolutely. You can find us online at www.calyxking.com. We have a contact form there through the website. We also have the contact information for all the different partners. If you have a specific question, you can contact one of us directly, depending upon our skillset, or just through that general info tab there on the website is easiest.
Matthew: Would you mind spelling the url?
Matt: Absolutely. That’s www.calyxking.com.
Matthew: Well Matt, thanks so much for coming on the show today and educating us. We really appreciate it.