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In this interview, Ana Hory of Enlucem discusses the data she has collected from interviewing over 1500 customers that have visited dispensaries for the very first time. What do they buy, what gender are they, how old are they? Find out in this interview.
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Matthew: Hi, I'm Matthew Kind. Every Monday look for a fresh new episode where I'll take you behind the scenes and interview the insiders that are shaping the rapidly evolving cannabis industry. Learn more at cannainsider.com. That's C-A-N-N-A insider.com. Now, here's your program.
Just a quick reminder before we get started. In this episode, me and the guests will talk a little bit about dosaging with cannabis, and this is provided just for informational purposes only. Please speak with your doctor before considering taking cannabis, how much or whether to do it at all.
We often talk about existing cannabis customers on this program, but who are the brand new customers who are trying cannabis legally for the first time and making their first dispensary purchases? We're going to find out the answer to this question in our interview today with Ana Hori from the Enlucem. Ana, welcome to CannaInsider .
Ana: Thank you.
Matthew: Give us a sense of geography. Where are you today?
Ana: I'm in Sunny Los Angeles, California.
Matthew: Okay, and what is Enlucem?
Ana: Enlucmn is an online community. The idea is to have a place where patients who have benefited from using cannabis to treat illness or reduce side effects with pharmaceutical meds, to share their stories so that other people who find themselves in similar situations or having similar ailments to learn from those experiences directly from other users.
Matthew: Okay. And what got you into this business? What were you doing before and what was kind of the motivation to spark this idea?
Ana: My background is in product and brand development. I have a passion for creating new products, new ideas, and the cannabis industry caught my attention a few years ago when I came across a book about the industry called "We the people". And there was the first really interaction when I learned a lot of details on how cannabis was using, was helping a lot of consumers to treat ailments, so that got my attention.
Matthew: Okay. And you've spoken with a lot of people in different geographies about their cannabis use and gathered data. Can you tell us about that?
Ana: I've conducted two quantitative studies across five largest legal cannabis states, including California, Colorado, Washington state, Oregon, and Nevada. A total of 1800 people, both users and non-users of cannabis.
Matthew: Okay, and what have been your illuminating insights or any kind of trends or things that you pop out?
Ana: One of the things that I've learned was that the first-time users are very different than current users. It's interesting because...well, there's a little small slice of the population that is still not understanding the benefits on...are concerned that since it's not legally federally, that might be a problem with it and that's like 17% of the population. Everybody else, 83% are like talk to me, they're either users or they've used in the past which is really exciting.
Matthew: Okay. So let's just kind of contrast first-time users and existing users. What, what is the real difference between the two? I imagined that existing users feel more comfortable with how much of their purchasing and things like that?
Ana: Absolutely. What we find is that the ones that use on a regular basis, are very familiar with the type of products, some benefits, they've used for many years, so cannabis is not new to them. But the ones that are newbies in this space, the first-time users, which is about 21% of consumers, they are mostly female, about 67% of them. Their age range is between...like the core is 45-65, so they're slightly older than the current users, which tend to skew a little younger. But they're curious, they want to learn more about the benefits of cannabis. It's the grandma who has arthritis and has been using opioids to treat it and doesn't like that experience. It's the mom who's overworked, keeping the house organized, the kids on their schedules and has a full-time job, but suffers from insomnia. It's also men who lead stressful lives and are looking to find ways to unwind. Or the 50-year-old who suffers from back thing and he's looking for healthier alternatives to treat it. Those are the first time enthusiastic that I learned from my studies.
Matthew: Okay. So let's say I'm a dispensary owner and I'm trying to coach a budtender on how to welcome new customers differently than existing cannabis enthusiasts. What would your suggestion be if you were looking over a budtender's arm and the customer says, "I've never used cannabis before." How would you approach that person?
Ana: You know, it's really, really important for the budtender to be very knowledgeable and to listen a lot to what that patient is telling them. So I would suggest first thing, engage him or her and understand what they're looking for. Is it an ailment? How long that have they had it, have they talked to a physician, has the physician given recommendation. And then understand what comfort level they have with different types of products. Are they open to smoking? Have they smoked weed before? So for example, if smoking is a preferred format for a first-time a dispensary consumer, if it's a format that are open but they haven't smoked before, maybe a pre-roll, may be more easier for them to experience cannabis.
But chances are this first-time user also want to... When a consumer carry products that are more discreet and if they are open-minded to smoking, they'll probably want something like a vape pen because you know, the scent of cannabis is not as strong. But from my studies, they generally prefer other types of formats. Edibles and topicals first versus smoking in general. Next, it's very important that the budtender shows different types of products, explain dosage, how much should they start from? It's really important that they start with a low dose, maybe three to five milligrams of THC. So that the consumer learns what's their tolerance level to make sure that they have a good experience with the product. And lastly, they should be knowledgeable enough to answer any questions that the patient might have.
Matthew: There's kind of like an ecosystem shame to the people who have never tried cannabis before where they say, "Hey, if I pull this out in front of my friends who also have never tried before, do I look like I'm a crazy person?" So they're not going to be doing dabs with a crowd if they're a first-time cannabis user, they're not going to be doing, you know, maybe offering, you know...wax or things like this are not appropriate, because they have this, you know, they're pulling out this, this product and they, they're kind of sensitive to what their, perhaps their friends or their family or their spouse might think. Which kind of leads me to the next question. How do people...first-time users consume? Do they do that at home? Do they do it outside with a spouse, a friend, in the car at work? What have you come up with?
Ana: Absolutely, 95% of users use it at home, which is interesting, I was surprised. It's pretty consistent across all states.
Matthew: That's high.
Ana: It's really high, it's mostly something they do at home. About half the time they do it alone, half the time they do with other family members or friends. And the current users actually, even though they...half the time they're using with friends, it seemed to shrink. It seems like the using it by themselves tends to be a preferred format than with others, which was surprising to me.
Matthew: I guess they want to kind of figure out how it's going to affect their behavior before they think of their friends.
Ana: I think so, too.
Matthew: Yeah. Okay, so I can almost think of how you can position this to a new dispensary customer. You can, you know, you mentioned they're using it at home so you could say so when you get back home, whether you're using this with your spouse or your significant other, you know, and then you walk in how to use it. Like just press the vape pen, screw it in and there you go. The pre-rolls, you know, I've been looking at the data of what sells in dispensaries and the pre-rolls are just unbelievably popular and I think it's just because they're so easy, and it's taken something that used to be hard, especially if you have fumbling Mr. Maggio fingers like me, and you're trying to roll a joint and then you've got those beautiful pre-rolls that looks like, you know, Zeus or some mythical figure did it for you and it's just perfect. You're like, "Gosh, this used to be something that was hard. Now look how beautiful this is. And it's cheap." Sometimes it's given as a little bonus, too. Its like, "Hey, you bought $50 worth of stuff. You get a free pre-roll."
Now, in terms of, you know, we talked a little bit about people coming in and trying to treat a specific symptom, but is there, can you kind of break down what the biggest symptoms are kind of like if we're looking at a pie chart, why new customers are coming into dispensary's and what it is they want, like what's their desired outcome?
Ana: It's interesting that for this particular question, both current users and future users or people that are interested in using, they say that they are interested in using or use it for the exact same reasons in the same proportion. So the number one thing is to relax, that's the one thing that they're looking for. The second thing is pain relief, and it's across the board. Next, is anxiety relief and then treating insomnia. Those are the top four reasons why people use cannabis and it's pretty consistent across states and users and non-users.
Matthew: I wonder why we have so much anxiety in our culture now. Do you have any clue there? I mean because things are changing so rapidly. There's no kind of anything, any steady or stabilizing things in our lives, it's all just up in the air?
Ana: No, I've read a lot about just consumer behavior in general, and I think people lead stressful lives, you know, if you're live in a large city you're faced with traffic and you drive far and if you have kids and you're married, that aspect of it. There's the financials, there's the political environment we are in today. So everything that we're exposed to on a daily basis generates some type of stress and anxiety and people manage anxiety differently.
Matthew: Yeah Now, let's talk a little bit more about the breakdown of how the consumption takes place, because you mentioned pre-rolls, you mentioned vape pens, but do you have any kind of numbers or anything around them so we can get kind of an idea of how much the first time consumer likes to consume each one of those?
Ana: So for the first time consumer, and that's very different from the current user, 55% of them are planning to have edibles, which is not surprising. Edibles to your point earlier saying that they probably don't want to show people that they're using, it's very discreet, it doesn't smell, you can just have it in the a convenience of your home. And then 55% of them are interested in using topicals, lotions and 35% tinctures. When you look at the population of current users, that changes dramatically, 69% of them smoke flower, 50% edibles, 44% pre-rolls, 30% vape pens, 25% concentrates, 25% topicals, 22% drinks and 17% tinctures. So you can see how very different, even though edibles is somewhat similar, everything else is very different.
Matthew: Interesting. Gosh, you know, the topicals, that's higher than I would've thought, so that's good to get that data. Okay. And any insight onto what strains or what type of flowers being smoked for the first-time consumers?
Ana: Well, first-time consumers, they're really not open as much to smoking flowers and so strains and the different types of strains doesn't really impact them as much as current users. Current users they like the traditional ones. Blue Dream, Gorilla Glue, GSC, those are the most popular strains. But for the newbies, they are not very aware or familiar with strains. They're looking to solve, to get the effect or something that will help heal what they're going through, or trying to heal, so the strain is secondary.
Matthew: Okay. And how big a concern is dosage? What can you tell us about initial first-time cannabis consumers dosage questions or preferences or anything around dosage?
Ana: You know, this is one of the most important pieces I find. I, myself, experienced a lot of different situation, especially with edibles, where I'm given something that, let's say, has 100 milligrams and I have to cut it in pieces and it's never precise, right? So sometimes I don't get enough, sometimes I get too much. So for them it's the difference between having a really good experience to having a very bad experience. So my recommendation to first-time consumers, it's always just start small and to look for, let's just say edibles as an example. Edibles that are tested by piece. So for example, let's just say I buy a bag of gummies, and that bag has 100 milligrams of THC. I'm looking for a product that has 10 gummies inside, so I know that each one should have 10 milligrams and even then I cut it in half so that the dosing is small. So tested and certified that each piece has that dosage ist very, very important.
Explaining to them to start small and to wait before having more. As you know, edibles take longer to digest because they're absorbed in the stomach, so they can take anywhere from 30 minutes to two hours depending on not only the... And how the patient, if have they just eaten? Is their stomach full? How big are they? What's their weight like? So all of these things combined can make a difference. So that's why it varies greatly from person to person.
And then we'll just talk about topicals for example. If the problem is inflammation or pain, you're looking for a topical that has high CBD content. The higher, the CBD content, the quicker acting it will be. And the advantage of the topicals is that you don't have any psychoactive effect, which I think it makes people more willing to try, especially if it's something on your skin or in your muscles. It makes absolute sense to do so.
Matthew: And that's does work. I've tried some topicals and some family members have and, you know, it does work for soreness and so forth. So I think that is kind of a good entry. I thought, you know, we might be farther along in terms of people knowing dosages, but I guess a kind of a first-time dosage of people. Many people call it like a rookie cookie or a bar would be five milligrams, but still, there's lots of instances everyday of people taking, you know, 100 milligrams and freaking out and hallucinating and things like that. So what typically happens for people that are listening that are not aware is that, you know, you take some, you wait an hour and they say...someone says, "Nothing's happened. Nothing's happened." So they take more. And then when it comes on, it all comes on at once and you hope you got the right dosage.
So it really is much better to start slow and I'm not... And just think like, "Hey, I might have too little tonight." And that's okay because the alternative cannot be...can be unpleasant if you go that route and start eating more, taking more edibles. I like some of these new things are coming to market, these low-dose, like individual candies and stuff from like Kiva confections, I think they're called Petra, they're...I don't know if you've seen those, but I think they're mostly in California, but they're designed just for what you're talking about, it to be kind of like this maintenance mode type of effect. It's not like, you're not going heavy. It's just like you're hitting a single there. Is that, is that what your experience is?
Ana: Yeah, that's my experience. And that's what I tell everybody. I'll have a lot of friends that approached me asking how should I do it. How should I start? And I always tell them, start small, start with something that you know exactly what the dosage is going to be, and that's when you have the best experiences for sure.
Matthew: Okay. What have you seen since legalization began in California? Anything interesting there? What's it...is it...is the Wild West being tamed?
Ana: It's interesting, I think people thought, you know, in California, it's been medicinally legal for 20, almost 22 years. So I had no idea that that was the case, I didn't even know it existed. So a lot of people thought, "Oh, now it's going to become recreationally legal and it's gonna, you know, mayhem." No, there's, there's no real change. I think the biggest challenge is that there's a lot of dispenses who are still not fully licensed in this new...they all had to get new licenses, which has been a process. So I think it's been just very slow. And for consumers themselves, it's really hard, they don't know where to go. Often times they call me, do you know what dispensary opened that I can go buy product? And I have to just call them up and find out because it's not even displayed on their websites, oftentimes you don't know. So it's been a slow process and hopefully things will improve. But I heard a number a few weeks ago that, I think there's about 2,000 or so dispensaries in California and back like a month ago, there were only like 300 or 400 that had a license.
Matthew: Oh, wow!
Ana: Which is not good, but they have until July 1st.
Matthew: Yeah, that's not good. And I know some of the different marketing platforms aren't even...are being told the by judges not to show the unlicensed dispensaries. So it's kind of getting interesting now as this all... So I guess these companies will fall in line or kind of go by the wayside. So this is interesting. Now I know some flour producers, cannabis growers in California, they call their product organic. Can you call cannabis flour organic in California?
Ana: You can't. And here's why, and it's such a shame. So the agency that gives the organic certification is the USDA, which is a federal entity and since cannabis is not legal federally, they can't issue organic certifications. So the right way to do is for farmers to say it's pesticide free and cannabis users, consumers, they understand that that's the case, but the ones that are saying it they will not be able to say it now...that it's...with a new licensing rules, they're being a lot more strict. And it's unfortunate that you can't call it organic.
Matthew: I think it'd be great if we did with food is call food grown with pesticides say grown with pesticides and then say pesticide free because then people, I mean, this organic labeling is great, but I think just doing it that way, grown with pesticides. You might say, "Oh, I don't want that."
Ana: You're absolutely right. People would stop buying for sure. That would help us tremendously, help us by, I mean, people that are more health oriented or, you know, healthy eating.
Matthew: Now, do you see the initial cannabis consumer preferences evolving over the next few years? Any kind of trends or things you see in motion that kind of piqued your interest in how things might unfold?
Ana: Yeah, absolutely. Within the legal states, the brands will likely start consolidating, and what are we going to start to see is clear winners that have not only launched strong products and brands, but they are introducing innovation and a delivering consumption experiences that are seamless with products that are consistent and reliable, easy to find. What we find so far is that you find a product you like and it's really hard to, when you go back to the same dispensary, to find that product there. So with time I think that will stop happening because then it's just going to have solid brands that will continue to build their presence. And then you can also, the way I see it, if you want to think of how is it going to look like three to five years from now, it's going to start behaving more like a consumer product goods companies.
So if you look at how their products have evolved through time, that's what we should expect. So for example, there'll be new product segments, there will be segments that are low sugar, non-dairy, there'll be new formats, extra strength for example, flavors, consumption methods even, portable storage, things that are more social for social use, packaging, different value sizes, bigger, smaller, things like that. So that's what I expect, and then when we talk about other states, as more states move to legalize cannabis, there'll be a lot of licensing opportunities for established brands in these current legal states to expand to these new states.
Matthew: Yeah, that makes sense. A lot of them are starting to do that now, we're starting to hear about that. It's challenging, though, I mean, think about how all the unnecessary work these brands have to do because it's not federally legal like I can give you all the intellectual property, but you just aad the, you know, THC there on site. It's really a shame. I think they could really, we could be moving a lot faster if it was federally legal, but at the same time it is kind of nice that it's Balkanized like this because there's no massive, massive brands yet, so a lot of different people can get involved and participate still. So I guess there's trade-offs there.
Matthew: Well, Ana, I'd like to ask a few personal development questions to help listeners get a better sense of who you are personally. So with that, is there a book that has had a big impact on your life or way of thinking that you'd like to share?
Ana: I would say books by Malcolm Gladwell, particularly "The Tipping Point and Outliers." I liked the way he writes. He's very, I would say casual, he writes it in a way that's almost like he's talking to you and I've seen him speak also. So to me his books help spark ideas on how we could approach new markets or strategize and better understand market dynamics. So it's been very useful to me.
Matthew: Okay. Is there a tool, web-based or otherwise, that you consider vital to your day-to-day productivity that you'd like to share?
Ana: Yeah, we use Base Camp. Base Camp as a software and it's a great way to keep everyone on the team informed on key projects, milestones, deliverables. It's a good way for me to track who's doing what. I don't like wasting time and I think sometimes work can be duplicated unless it's very clear who's owning each piece of it, and it's also a great place to upload documents and shared. It's also a very easy interface, I like it a lot. Though it can get a bit pricey, they do charge a monthly fee.
Matthew: Yeah. I'm a big fan of those guys. The two founders, Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson. They're both interesting characters and also fun to follow on Twitter, they have a whole...a book that I read called "Redesign". I think it's called "Redesign" or "Rework." I can't remember, but it's all about like don't have meetings. You don't need meetings and just because your Outlook calendar books, you know, meetings in 30-minute chunks or 60-minute chunks. He's like you don't have to book them in those time periods. You could book it for 13 minutes, but just by default there, you know, Outlooks says 30 minutes or 60 minutes, so they have all these the counter-intuitive ways of thinking that I find really helpful. But you're right, Base Camp, I think they've just raised their price quite a bit, too, for new customers even so that's good. Do they have a chat function in there, too?
Ana: I'm not familiar with...I don't know, and if they do, I haven't used it.
Matthew: Okay, cool. Well, Ana, tells us one more time how listeners can reach out to you and find out more about your business.
Ana: I can be reached on my website its www.enlucem.com. I will spell it out, its E-N-L-U-C-E-M.com. There's a contact form page, so I will be more than happy to interact and answer any questions.
Matthew: Well, Ana, thanks so much for coming on CannInsider today and educating us about new cannabis consumers' preferences. That was very enlightening.
Ana: Thank you for having me.
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Daniel Yazbeck is founder and CEO of MyDx Inc (MYDX). Today, Daniel shares how his company has grown from one product, a cannabis analyzer to a new product and platform. The new product the EcoSmartPen and MyDx360 allows start-up cannabis brands launch and track their customer’s preferences so they can achieve true product/market fit.
You can hear Daniels 2015 interview here:
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What are the five trends disrupting the cannabis industry?
Find out with your free cheat sheet at cannainsider.com/trends
Warren Bravo is CEO of Green Relief in Ontario Canada. Warren and his partners embarked on a 2.5-year journey to master growing cannabis in an aquaponics system.
Most remarkable is Warren’s ability to leverage his aquaponics system to produce cannabis for under one dollar per gram. Growers of tomorrow or going to be competing with people like Warren and will most likely will go out of business unless they are planning now to produce quality cannabis at massive scale.
[1:25]: Warren Bravo’s background and operation
[5:30]: What is aquaponics?
[11:59]: The business side of aquaponics
[19:13]: Other sustainability measures
[27:00]: Nanobubbling and other aquaponics grow details
[33:00]: University Light Study [36:19]: Extraction technology
[40:30]: Advice for innovators and entrepreneurs
[43:10]: Warren’s recommendations and words of wisdom
Learn more at
What are the five trends disrupting the cannabis industry?
Find out with your free report at https://www.cannainsider.com/trends
Matthew: The late Steve Jobs challenged all of us to think differently. One cannabis entrepreneur in Canada is doing just that. Warren Bravo is here to tell us how he is using aquaponics in his cannabis grow to be more sustainable and resourceful. Warren, welcome to CannaInsider.
Warren: Thank you very much, Matt. It’s a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me on.
Matthew: Give us a sense of geography; where are you in the world today?
Warren: We’re in beautiful Hamilton, or just outside beautiful Hamilton, in Southern Ontario. We are in kind of the hub, the Golden Horseshoe, the major population of Canada. We’re about 40-45 minutes west of Toronto.
Matthew: And I am in Central Mexico right now and it’s been invaded by Canucks who are seeking sun and shelter from the snow down here. It’s interesting to see.
Warren: I wish I was there, and I don’t blame then a bit. It’s still bloody cold up here. We’re waiting, with today being the first day of spring, looking forward to that spring weather up here.
Matthew: So what is Green Relief? Can you introduce what you do?
Warren: Yeah. So Green Relief is the only scaled North American producer of medical cannabis using aquaponics as their growing medium. We are an environmentally and socially responsible company. We are here to help people with the medicinal value of the cannabis plant, and also trying to be a model of environmental stewardship. We want to help people, and we want to help the environment.
Matthew: And what’s your background? What brought you to start Green Relief?
Warren: I’m a third generation concrete contractor, so I grew up in the construction world. Right out of my post-secondary education, right into the family business. Commercial industrial institutional concrete floors, so that’s what I’ve done. I’ve poured concrete all of my life. Cannabis is something new for me, especially the aquaponics portion of it. I’ve been around cannabis all my life, but certainly as a business this is something new and exciting. Certainly different than the construction world that I grew up in.
Matthew: I see these little video clips on like Business Insider and Tech Insider, of these robots that are laying bricks and doing interesting things with concrete. Making houses in like twelve hours, or at least the shell of the house. What do you think about all that? Is that upon us?
Warren: Well it’s the evolution. In the construction game, 80% of your cost is labor in most cases, whether you’re a subcontractor like I was. I wasn’t the big general contractor putting up the buildings, I was just a small cog in a big wheel on most projects. But I poured all the floors of all these arena complexes and shopping malls and auto-making plants and other institutional-type jobs. I think it’s the evolution, as all industries, and science, at the end of the day, rules the day, so I think it’s a step in the right direction. Quality and consistency, that’s got to be everyone’s motto, no matter what business you’re in. I think it’s certainly bringing some value into the construction world.
Matthew: Yeah. So how big is your grow up there in Ontario?
Warren: Currently, we’re in a 32,000 square foot building and only have about 4,500 plants inside that 32,000 square feet. Building One is a part of the bigger-picture model for the property that I’m on. I’m on a 50 acre property here outside of Hamilton, Ontario, where we planned three buildings for this site. So Building One was designed as part of three buildings, a larger project. So currently 4,500 plants. It was actually 6,000 plants, but I’ve had to abandon one of my grow rooms to set up a temporary laboratory and extraction area for cannabis oil. We’re in the process of just finalizing our cannabis oil sales license. We should have that any day, so we are very excited about that. We’re going to be expanding. We just started construction on our Phase Two second building, which is 210,000 square feet, giving me 100,000 square feet of canopy, which equates to 100,000 plants. So that’s the next part of the equation of the growth of this specific site, but I also have many satellite models being built in different provinces here in Canada currently as well.
Matthew: Okay. You’re doing some really interesting stuff with aquaponics and I want to dive into that, but before I do, can you remind listeners what that term aquaponics means, and specifically, just an overview of how that’s integrated into your grow?
Warren: Sure. Aquaponics is the symbiotic relationship between fish, water, and plants. It’s a natural ecosystem. We’ve all heard and know about hydroponics, using flood and drain, or deep water culture grow using commercial fertilizers. Well, I don’t use commercial fertilizers in my grow. We use fish and fish waste, fish manure, broken down naturally, as I said, in an ecosystem, where the nitrification process is allowed to happen with the fish manure, converting a nitrite to a nitrate. Nitrates being a useable plant food, in a closed loop, recirculating system, using 90% less water than any other conventional type of growing or any other type of agriculture used in the world today. We’re sustainable; it is the most sustainable form of agriculture in the world today.
Matthew: What was the impetus to integrate aquaponic technology into your grow?
Warren: Well, it all started with an idea from my wife, actually. On this 50 acre property, we built a house. Our home consisted of a walkout basement, and on the back of that walkout basement was going to be a small attached greenhouse with a small aquaponics system, a home use aquaponics system, in the greenhouse portion, just to grow vegetables for our family and extended family year-round. I didn’t think that I’d be… I thought, well that’s a great idea, would love to try it, love to do it. My wife is a landscape architect and she is the tree-hugger of the family. So we investigated the process a little bit, started working with Nelson and Paid Aquaponics from Wisconsin, and the idea just morphed into what we’re doing now, into North America’s largest aquaponics grow facility. So it was just an evolution of an idea.
Matthew: And the fish you grow are mako sharks, correct? I’m just kidding. What kind of fish are they?
Warren: Yeah, mako sharks and piranha. No, they’re actually a tilapia. The aquaculture in an aquaponics system has to match the root temperature of the plant that you’re growing. Although tilapia, people have very strong opinions about the fish that they consume or they eat, tilapia is a good solid source of protein, kind of a medium grade fish, as opposed to say, a higher end fish like a trout or a bass or perch, other things that are more sale-able. But aquaponics, with the cannabis plant and the root temperature of cannabis, lends itself very well to a tilapia water temperature. So tilapia like a 68 to 82 degree water temperature, and cannabis plant roots hover around 70-71 degrees Fahrenheit. So the tilapia are a natural fit for that production. But also, tilapia, we’ll say, has been tried and true and proven, in a farmed environment. They’re a very hardy fish. They’re very disease-resistant fish and worked out really well from an aquaponics standpoint. Currently, it’s tilapia. Building Two, the next building, will have a 10,000 square foot aquaculture experimentation area where we are going to be trying freshwater prawn or shrimp, barramundi out of Australia, koi is a possibility, there are other more sale-able fish that we could be using in the aquaponics system, but right now, what do they say? If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. So right now, tilapia is where we’re at.
Matthew: Now you gave a nice overview of what aquaponics are, but could you just go into a little more detail for an entry-level novice in terms of how the water gets cleaned and how that feeds the plant, exactly. What’s happening there, that interchange?
Warren: Absolutely. The fish waste is produced because we feed our fish, currently, in our 800 gallon tanks, three times a day. The fish create waste, solid waste or fish manure. Through a series of clarifying tanks, mineralizing tanks, bioreactor, off-gas tanks, basically water flowing from the fish tanks to another tank, to another tank, and all the way around through the tanks that I just mentioned. That solid waste is mineralized, converts to a nitrite. That nitrite in my bioreactor converts to a nitrate. That nitrate is a useable plant food. After the nitrate is created, it’s to the off-gas tank, where any of the remaining CO2 or ammonia that’s in the water is bubbled off, off-gassed into the air and out my HVAC system. Then basically the water flows from my off-gas tank through my growing rafts, where the plants are suspended on Styrofoam and about 20 inches of water height. So these plants that are suspended in pots on Styrofoam, the roots are allowed to just kind of dangle in the water, absorb whatever nutrient they want for whatever phase of growth they’re in. The water circulates through the plant roots, so the plant roots now are taking the nitrates out of the water, cleaning the water, returning the water directly back from the grow beds right to the fish tanks. So closed loop, recirculating system, and I’m only topping up water through evaporation and transpiration, very small volumes, at a monthly basis. So as I said, 90% less water resource than any other type of agriculture used in the world today. It’s that symbiotic relationship with fish and plants. It’s just an ecosystem. So like any freshwater lake you’ve ever taken a canoe through, and you see a lily pad growing or a bulrush or milfoil or anything that grows in water, it’s fertilized by the aquaculture, by the fish that live in that body of water. So like any freshwater lake, it’s the same ecosystem as a freshwater lake that we would be using, except our system is scale-able. It’s all about science-based systems, it’s about stocking densities, flow rates, water temperature, bacteria, parts per mil of fertilizer in the water at any given time. It’s that symbiotic relationship.
Matthew: Putting on your business owner hat, what kind of impact does aquaponics have on your bottom line, both in terms of up-front cost and then return on investment?
Warren: Well, going into this that was a big variable for us. We had an idea on how much it’s going to cost us to run the system, but now that we’ve been running for three years growing cannabis, we have the lowest cost of goods sold in the industry in Canada currently. So we are producing a gram of cannabis for $1.43 today in our small 4,500 plant grow. Once Building Two is up and we’re at our next 100,000 plants, we are well below $1.20 a gram, and when Building Three is up, we’ll be at $0.85 cents a gram cost of sales. And I don’t care how you grow cannabis, nobody in North America is producing real, organic or naturally grown product for under a dollar a gram. And keep in mind, that’s Canadian dollars, so take 30% for the American dollar.
Matthew: Wow, that’s crazy. So when you started on this journey about aquaponics, you really have to be…
Warren: Take one step back and just a quick explanation because people are going to say, well, how do you get to those numbers? Just keep in mind that 20-30 percent of the cost of goods for a cannabis plant is fertilizer. Well I have tilapia, I have fish in my system, that I sell. So it offsets all of my fertilizer costs. So I net-revenue zero from fertilizer cost standpoint, so I don’t have any fertilizer costs, so there’s 20% ahead. My grow is all LED lighting and I think we’ll talk about that a little bit later, so I’m saving a lot of hydro as well, 35% hydro cost right off the top, compared to the 1,000 watt high pressure metal highlight lights that are predominant in the industry. So from a cost to sales standpoint, we didn’t realize the impact and the cost, we actually donate all of our fish from our facility to homeless shelters in the greater Toronto area. We get a tax receipt for that, so that tax receipt does offset all of our costs for fertilizer.
Matthew: So aquaponics, you introduced it at a high level that makes sense, but there’s a lot of nitty gritty details, and you’ve got to get everything right or your fish can die or your plants don’t get the right nutrients. What did you learn about creating a successful harmony and synergy between the plants and the fish when setting this system up out of the gate?
Warren: What I learned is patience. That’s the main thing that I learned, is be patient. You can’t rush Mother Nature, nor could I rush my ecosystem or the balance of my ecosystem. It’s as I said, that symbiotic relationship with the water, plants and fish. It takes time to develop natural bacteria. Here I am, a concrete contract, third generation of pouring concrete floors. So I go in and pour a Walmart floor, we’ll say, and I’m on the end of a chute of a concrete truck, pouring a slab of concrete. Here I’ve got this concrete like pea soup, like water in the morning, and you can have a dance on it that night because it hardens that quickly. My life has been instant gratification, instant results from my construction business. Here, I really had to learn how to be patient. Took a long time for me to wrap my head around using aquaponics. But patience, once you get to that eco-balance, and once you have that fulsome system of bacteria and microbes that are generating and growing your plants, it’s such a satisfying, gratifying system, and that benefit is that I get 20-30% more product than any other grower growing this plant in the same space and in the same time frame. So there have been a few exciting developments just through osmosis and using the system that have developed out of our use of aquaponics.
Matthew: Okay. And you mentioned who you purchased it from, some company in Wisconsin. Can you say that name again?
Warren: That’s correct. It’s Nelson and Paid Aquaponics. And Rebecca Nelson and John Paid have been a huge resource for me. They spent 20 years of their life developing these aquaponics systems, turn-key aquaponics systems for vegetable production. So Green Relief was their first cannabis client. They were very reluctant dealing with me on using their aquaponics systems for cannabis, they did realize that it’s something that’s not going to go away, and it’s only going to become a larger industry, so they took a gamble on me and my word that I’m going to be doing something that’s going to be noteworthy in the industry, and something new and exciting, so Rebecca and John and I developed a very tight, very close relationship, and they have been a huge resource for me in getting to know how to grow cannabis in an aquaponics system. I gotta tell you, at the beginning of charging the system and trying to get cannabis to grow, when we told people we were growing aquaponically, we were laughed at. When I was doing my tours down in Colorado and California and Oregon. Everywhere I went, when I told people I was growing aquaponically, they said it can’t be done. They said it’s impossible, you can’t get enough parts per million of nutrient in the water, cannabis is too fast a growing plant with very specific nutrient demands at very specific phases of growth, and how do you do that aquaponically? How do you get enough nutrients in the water, and how do you adjust for those changes and grow patterns? Well, nobody wanted to take the time to figure it out. It took us two and a half years to learn how to grow cannabis successfully in aquaponics. It’s not for the squeamish. That time we spent and millions of dollars in R&D trying to figure that out. Now we have figured out, we’re the veterans in the industry, and nobody grows cannabis as naturally and prolifically as we do, all with the help of Rebecca Nelson, John Paid, many of the people who developed the aquaponics world and vegetable productions. Dr. Nick Savidov at Left Bridge University in Canada here, Dr. Racosi in the British Virgin Islands, Charlie Shultz down in Texas, all these, we’ll say, the grandfathers of the aquaponics industry. They’ve all been to our facility, they absolutely love our program and have helped us exponentially to get to where we are now. So it’s not me. I’m no academic. I’m a concrete contractor and a ham-and-egger. I’m one of those guys who has been able to take the bull by the horns and get things done, but I’m not a scientist, I don’t have a scientific bone in my body. Fortunately, I know all the people in the industry that do, and the people that work for us, the PhDs and the chemists and all the other people, a very smart, academic, dynamic young people that work here, have all helped and made us the success we are today.
Matthew: You’ve really minimized the expense of your inputs and so your cost of goods sold is really coming down, and that’s impressive. You still have some inputs left though, like electricity, and that powers the LED lights and maintaining the temperature in your grow room at different seasons. Have you thought about geothermal at all, and putting coils into the ground to use the earth’s natural temperature?
Warren: Absolutely, we looked at all of the great natural sources of energy that we can to be able to take advantage of a reduced cost of electricity. Electricity in Ontario is very expensive. Currently, we are on the grid. Our second building, we are going to be totally off the grid. We are going to be doing a microgenerating station with the use of natural gas and green environmental sustainable methods of creating electricity, all off the grid. So all of our satellite facilities, we’re building two. Anywhere else we build into the world globally will be all off the grid and not dependent on hydro usage in traditional means. So it is important for us. Geothermal, even though it is something to take advantage of from a cooling standpoint, we didn’t incorporate that into our buildings because of the green technology that we’re going to be using for generating our own power as we advance our platform here.
Matthew: Okay. You talked about your background in concrete. Have you used the knowledge of that material to do anything different in your grow, or interesting?
Warren: I can’t say that I have, because were we have fish, water, and plants, and here I pour concrete, so there’s not a lot of relativity in those two businesses. But again, trying to, being a contractor, you have to think outside the box, you have to do things differently, you have to think of ways to be efficient, and this business is about efficiencies. The cannabis business is going to be like every other business that’s out there. It’s producing the highest quality products you can and get them out the door for the least amount of cost possible. I think my construction background is going to help me with those efficiencies. That’s a huge focus for Green Relief, as we want to be one of the five or six major producers left when the dust settles in this Canadian legalization that’s going to take place. There’s going to be a culling, there’s going to be survival of the fittest, and if your cost of goods sold are not the lowest in the marketplace, then you’re going to have to say buy me out, or put me out of business, because I can’t keep up with you. So that’s what’s going to happen. This is going to be like every other business in the next five years. Right now there is a huge overdemand and undersupply. There is going to be a reconciliation in the marketplace, and I think if you don’t have the best cost to goods sold, which is what we’re shooting for, I’m just not going to be in business in five to seven years. Construction has taught me that, that’s for sure.
Matthew: I definitely agree with you there, cannabis is not a magic business. It succumbs to supply and demand dynamics like any other business, so it’s good that you’re skating to where the puck is going instead of where it is now, so kudos for that. Now, you’re very sensitive to sustainability, so I’m curious as to what kind of LED lights you use.
Warren: Well, we’ve investigated that industry to no end. We have gotten the moniker here in Canada as the LED light research guys. So we have currently four to five light manufacturers that are available on the market, and lights that are not available on the market yet, at our facility. Currently, we use and purchase Lumigrow lights from California for all of our LED lighting requirements, both their 325 watt and their 650 watt, all with three-channel adjustability with the red white and blue spectrum. We currently have five light recipes that we use, from the time that our cloning procedures take place to the time our flowering is done, and we change those light spectrums and basically give the plants a full year sun spectrum in eight weeks. Our timing from cutting to harvest is eight weeks, so we’re doing 6.7 harvests per year annually, and a lot of that simulation is done with our LED lighting. I’ve got lights from the world’s largest LED manufacturer, Ozram Lighting, has sent us lights to test for them, for the horticulture market, lights that aren’t on the market yet, lights that I can’t talk about because I’m under NDA but I can certainly tell you who I’m dealing with. There’s some major players in the lighting industry that are throwing their hat into the ring and think they can provide a light that’s going to produce superior quality plants, so we are happy to be a testing ground, because over the next three years, I need close to 50,000 LED lights with my expansions. We want to make sure we’re getting the right light at the right spectrum, and we’re excited to be developing that space.
Matthew: Circling back to how you said tilapia was a fit for the root temperature of cannabis plants, is there an opportunity to try out different fish besides the one in Australia, if you introduce like a media layer that would allow for an adjustment of temperature for the roots. Let’s say you had a much colder water fish?
Warren: So I think you’re probably talking about more of a decoupled aquaponics system, and we are testing that technology now. Right now we are trying to use as few pumps and be as sustainable as possible, because the more pumps you install, the more hydro you use, the more you play with the water, the more you try to change the natural eco balance of your bacteria, etc., then you’re putting inputs in most cases into your system. Right now we pride ourselves in the fact that we don’t use fertilizer, I don’t use pesticides, herbicides, fungicides. I have no inputs, I don’t use anything on my plants, nor do I want to play with Mother Nature and that eco balance. We are trying to do things naturally. There are advantages to lowering pH with a decoupled system, or like you said, being able to balance nutrients or play with the water or cool it down for the plant, the root temperatures. There’s lots of things we can do, but we are walking before we run. We want to make sure that we’re doing all of our changes, all of our R&D, because we’re getting better results, more effective cannabis plants, better yields, more efficacy, more terpenes, more tricombs, we’re trying to effect by that research. So we don’t just jump into things, we make sure we are making very science-based decisions on how we advance and manipulate our program. But as I said, it’s a very important focus for us not to steer too far off Mother Nature’s path in the aquaponics system because that’s the way it was intended to be used. You can grow successful plants and high-yielding, awesome quality plants, just in the way it is right now. So if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it, so they say.
Matthew: Okay, so it sounds like the more variables and temperature deltas that you introduce, the more opportunities there are for failure, and you just try to keep those to a minimum, at least right now, when everything is going well.
Warren: Well, if I’m going to make a pharmaceutical grade product, the big buzzword in the pharmaceutical world is replicate-able processes, so that’s got to start with your genetics. That’s got to start with your plants, your clones. So every day, things have to be exactly the same. If there’s human input, there is margin for error, and therefore margin for a non-replicate-able process. So I want my plants, my fish, to be the same every day, my water temperature, my humidity, my ambient temperature, all of those things, I want the same consistency every day, lights on, lights off, that way I get a consistent grow. I can time my plants and I can tell you four years from now the data I’m going to be harvesting my plants in Grow Room 4 at this time of year, so that’s how consistent we have our grow right now. Like I said, from the time I take a cutting to the time I harvest my plant is eight weeks exactly to the day. It’s very easy to figure out, it’s because I don’t screw with anything. Everything is consistent and everything is the same.
Matthew: That’s a great point, yeah. Is there any other kind of automation that you have built into your grow, because it really sounds like you have it down to a science here. Anything else you can share in that way?
Warren: There’s a ton. And not just the automation side of it, but the R&D we put in, as I said, it’s taken us a long time to grow cannabis effectively using aquaponics, because there are some manipulations in the systems that we’ve had to learn, how to naturally manipulate the system to get more phosphorus during the flowering phase, and get more potassium out of that veg into the early flowering stage, and try to manipulate some of these spikes that we need for the cannabis plant naturally. So there’s been a lot of technology, a lot of R&D. I would say the biggest thing that’s given us our biggest bump in yield would be our nanobubbling technology for our water. We have, you know, traditional deep water culture system, hydroponics, or traditional aquaponics system, you get six to eight parts per million of O2 in your water, of oxygen in your water. We have twenty parts per million of oxygen in our water, because we use nanobubbles, bubbles that are very hard to even break the surface of the water, they stay in the water 200 times longer than traditional compressed bubbling systems. We like to stay on top of the science of deep water culture, aquaculture, and aquaponics. We’ve adopted and changed some of the systems that even the manufacturer, Rebecca Nelson and John Paid, are using now, some of the technology that we developed here in their systems for the vegetable production world down south of the border. And just so I add another quick thing on the Nelson and Paid aquaponics system, Rebecca Nelson and John Paid have just been a huge asset for us in that communication and the science. Rebecca is such a science-based person and really helped us establish all the science behind the aquaponics to grow cannabis. The system is so prolific, and we’ve got this thing nailed down so well, is that I have purchased the rights for North America, for their Nelson and Paid aquaponics system, for cannabis production. So if anybody in your listening audience does want to grow cannabis aquaponically, we’ll design the system, we’ll train you how to do it, we’ll give you all of our IP, we’ll let you hit the ground running and grow aquaponically just like we do here in Canada, as well as buying the Canadian vegetable rights as well, for the Nelson and Paid system. The system is amazing and grows plants like you’ve never seen.
Matthew: Now circling back to the bubbles, the nanobubbles. The benefit there, is that it keeps the water cleaner and prevents less bacteria because of oxygen? How does that work?
Warren: So what you’re doing by oxygenating the roots of the plants, is you’re allowing more nutrient uptake. You’ve got much better plant transpiration, because you’re allowing all those… You have to think differently when you’re using aquaponics. I’m not relying on metered doses of fertilizer and these big doses of fertilizer to allow my plants to grow, or kind of messing up and putting too much phosphorus in when they needed more potassium, and vice versa. Because it’s an ecosystem, the plants are allowed to uptake what they want, when they want it, and whenever they want it. So I can have two different strains, different heights of growth, different stages of growth in the same ecosystem, and because it is a balanced ecosystem, and the bacterias and the heterotrophic and the aerobic bacterias in the water, all the conversions that are happening, the ecosystem allows the plant to take up what it wants, when it wants it, no matter what phase of growth it’s in. So it’s a very cool phenomenon. You really have to think differently aquaponics or traditional hydroponics or soil grows. We’re not doing any of the plants. Once I put them in the flowering rooms in the big aquaponics systems, my 800 gallon systems, I just leave them alone for six and a half weeks, and it doesn’t matter what phase of growth they’re in, they just grow. They grow like weeds because they’re allowed to take up what they want. For us it’s environmental. We create an environment for them to thrive with the proper ambient temperature, the proper humidity, the proper recirculating time, the proper water temperature for the roots, all consistency in the lighting, so we simulate that one year of sun wavelength, spectrum wavelength and year of growth, and environmental stressors that we induce over an eight week time frame. So it’s a ton of science and a lot to wrap our heads around, even trying to figure it out in the first place. So it’s, there’s no books, there’s no videos, there’s nothing I can watch and see how to be a successful aquaponics grower. We had to figure it out from square one. And we have. We’re the veterans of the industry now, and we’ve taken the time to do it and spent the money on the R&D to make it happen.
Matthew: Wow. That was definitely worth doing, looking at the cost of your cost per gram, for sure. And also the sustainability factor is great, and you can donate food, so there’s a lot of cascading benefits there. Now, last time I spoke with you, you mentioned a light study with a local university. Is that still going on? Is that something you can talk about?
Warren: They’ve actually just wrapped up and they’re just going to publish, going to paper shortly. They’re just compiling data, actually. So we’ve completed a light study with Gwelth University, Yoban Xiang, he’s the head of agriculture for our local agriculture university. Definitely a North American renowned ecology school, ecology and bio and eco science. They’ve been here for over six months with tests. Testing some of my plants, giving them different light frequencies, different wavelengths and intensities to find out what wavelengths and frequencies of light we can give the plants for optimum growth at whatever phase of growth the plant is in. So basically, we have a light curve for the LED light for optimum spectrum of light for whatever phase of growth the plant is in. It’s really important. Nobody has established a light curve for the cannabis plant yet, we believe we’re the first ones in the world to do so. So whatever phase of growth, if it’s a flowering plant we can crank that red up and make sure it’s getting the right intensity. All of our light racks, they’re not only just adjustable for the frequency of light, but also they’re adjustable from thirteen feet in the air to two feet off the ground, so I can also give the plants whatever intensity and micromole of light they want as well. Gwelth University was really happy about the variables. To add, a lot of growers will fix lights to the ceiling and you can’t really use the adjustability. Let’s say for instance, I want to give my plants a blue light bath for three days at the end, which is something that I actually do to my plants. So 100% blue light, but if I want to get 500 micromoles of light from my plant, I can’t keep it up six feet of the ground, because only 20% of the array of my lights are blue. So if I want to get those micromoles, I want to be able to drop those lights right on top of the plants and give them that 500 micromoles, so they’re getting all the light intensity they need to grow, to get that really nice terpene profile, and solidify those tricombs. It's been very cool working with light. Lights and HVAC, the two most important parts of your indoor growing environment.
Matthew: Yeah, you really, it sounds like, have to do develop somewhat of an obsessive nature and a deep dive into the plants. Not something you can really do lightly when looking at the aquaponics, the pH, the bacteria, the nanoparticulates, the fish, the temperature, all these things, it’s really, you’ve got a PhD in aquaponics and cannabis here, going into your learning process.
Warren: And all of that from a concrete guy who’s not an academic, this is just school of hard knocks for me, and just talking to people who are way smarter than I am. And that’s a lot of people, that’s most people, but at the end of the day, fortunately, I’ve been able to absorb it, understand it, work with people who, as I say, know the science and we’ve come a long way. Just through osmosis I’ve been able to absorb a lot of information and probably sound a lot smarter than I actually am but it’s worked really well.
Matthew: Now, you’re doing extraction. Can you tell us about what you’re doing there? Anything interesting?
Warren: I don’t know about interesting, but we do have the largest extractor we believe in Canada that’s operating. I know that one company has a larger extractor but they’re having some issues with TSSA, one of our governing bodies for pressure vessels, and the certification of, but we bought European technology. We bought an extractor that’s GMP, good manufacturing practices, being able to reach those standards for pharmaceutical GMP, because at the end of the day, we are a medical company. We want to promote and advance the science of this plant for medicinal use. So to be GMP compliant or pharmaceutical GMP compliant, we want to be able to sell our products to Pfizer, Merck, Apatex, Glaxo Smith Kline, Lilly, any of the big pharmaceutical companies, because we have that replicate-able process and consistency throughout our whole program. So we are doing CO2 supercritical extraction. European technology, as I said. All manu-computer driven. So we are doing a dual 20 liter extractor, meant for 24 hour, 7 days a week continual operation. My extractor flips from one extraction vessel to another one, keeps going back and forth, allowing us to unpack and pack the vessels and keep the machine running all the time. Unfortunately, I don’t have enough biomass to be able to keep the machine running 24/7, and we’re just days away from getting our oil licensed to be able to sell the product. We’ve had our inspection, and we’re very excited to get oils out the the marketplace, and the highly tuned refining process that we’ve been able to establish with our partners in Switzerland. So I have a Swiss partner, a company called Ifame, and they have been extracting and doing CBD extractions for well over a decade. They’ve got the science down, they have the medical devices, the applications, the different types of delivery systems, and the recipes for all those. I built my laboratory with Bookey equipment, just like they have their laboratory equipment in Switzerland, so we are exchanging information. Actually, next week I have one of my PhDs and chemists going over to be trained on some chromatography and some other advancements in the separation world of the cannabis wax and the oil. So very exciting stuff. Cannabis oil is going to be 90% of our business moving forward.
Matthew: Wow. Okay, and what about the cost per gram of oil? Is that coming down as well, just like your cost of production for cannabis flower?
Warren: We will be working diligently to get the cost per gram of production down. Now, we haven’t been on a regular production path because, as I said, we’ve been gearing up and just had our oil sales license inspection by Health Canada about three weeks ago. We believe the inspectors have passed our file on to Ottawa, to Health Canada, for the application and the amendment to our license to allow sales of our cannabis oil. We’re waiting patiently. We can’t get into a regular rhythm until we have our sales production, our sales license. So I can’t really talk too much about costs right now. I know just because of the equipment, the technology that we’ve latched onto in the supercritical world, we are getting 25% finished product from our biomass. So we’re well above industry standards. This machine was manufactured and designed specifically for cannabis in Northern Italy, and nobody else has any technology that’s even close to it in North America. That’s including the Apex and Watters machines that are predominantly used out there. We’re ahead of the curve in the cannabis oil production world.
Matthew: What advice would you give to growers around the world who would like to try something new and different in growing like you did? You endured some people laughing at you, thinking you’re a little bit crazy, maybe like the scientist from the Back to the Future, you know that guy, 1.21 gigawatts, Marty! And the flux capacitor. They’re looking at you like that, so how do you endure that and sustain your vision, because probably a couple times you were like, wait a minute, these guys might be right. Am I going down a weird place here and I have a lot of money at risk?
Warren: The blood, sweat, and tears we’ve poured into this place, and just in the R&D, nothing is instantaneous. Like I said, I’m a concrete contractor, used to instant results, and having to wait. The hurry up and wait game has been my life this last five years. My advice is that, just because you’ve been doing something for ten years and you’ve had success, it doesn’t mean it’s right. We can’t be afraid of latching onto new technology and using science as the base of what you’re doing, especially growing cannabis, because it is a truly science-based industry now. I call it the wizard unicorn factor, from the growers kind of latching on to their twenty year old methodology and not changing their program because they want to use this special bat guano or whatever else they want to put inside their soil because they think it’s going to grow and make them more THC-rich and faster-growing buds, and it really is bull. It’s crap. If it’s not science-based, you can’t measure it. If you can’t measure it, it’s not real. So you can’t be afraid to latch onto new technology. You have to embrace it, and you’re going to be just like I am. I can’t tell you how many failures I’ve had growing aquaponically and trying different things and doing root zone pots and hydroton and all these other things, increasing surface area for bacteria to grow on to increase my yields, and all kinds of things that I’ve been doing. Tried, failed, tried again, had medium results. You have to try it. You just have to take the bull by the horns and take a leap, an informed leap. If you’re basing your decision on science, and you’re basing it on what’s happening out there in the industry, you’re probably making a good choice, and I would jump into that wholeheartedly. Again, cost of production.
Matthew: Let’s pivot to some personal development questions, Warren. Is there a book that’s had a big impact on your life or way of thinking that you’d like to share with listeners?
Warren: Well, not so much a book, although I do read a lot. I always have a reference book and a fiction going at the same time. Not so much a book, but in my early twenties, I went to the movie theatre and watched a movie called The Dead Poets Society with Robin Williams. You’ve probably seen it or heard about it. It wasn’t a particularly good movie, but there was one scene that had an impact, besides little pearls of wisdom my father gave me growing up in the construction world, old school Italian man, dominant family member, giving me his little pearls of wisdom as I’ve grown up. But Robin Williams, there was a scene in there when he made the kids in his classroom stand up on their desks just as a way to say, you’ve got to be able to look at things from a different angle. So that always stuck with me, the fact that you’ve got to be able to see all sides, you’ve got to be able to look at things from every angle, you’ve got to process all that information. You have to listen to everybody, you have to see all things, you have to be informed before you can make a good decision. And I think that scene in that movie has probably had the most impact, besides my father, my mentor, of anything else that I can say, that I’ve ever seen in my life. Like I said, not a great movie, but that scene was something that I’ve remembered always, and any time I’m in a mental conundrum, I think about that scene and I try to make sure I’ve looked at everything every way possible.
Matthew: I thought that movie was excellent. Peter Weir, the director, also did The Truman Show, which was another great movie. And that boarding school, St. Andrews in Wilmington, Delaware, is a real place. That wasn’t just a set. Very interesting perspective you have there. He makes them stand on the desk and see, well how does the world look different just from that? Yeah, a lot of people don’t do that. A lot of people are like, how can I compete and break my back competing instead of looking at it from a different way like you did with aquaponics, so, well-said.
Warren: Thank you. Think outside the box. It’s a cliché, but it’s absolutely true.
Matthew: Is there a tool you consider vital to your productivity, either around the grow or with your team or anything like that?
Warren: So, there isn’t a specific tool that I use that makes me successful, and I’m not talking about electronics, I’m not talking about anything, but what has gotten me by through life and made me a success in the concrete construction world, made me a success in aquaponics, not just my intestinal fortitude, but my gut. I’ve used my gut to guide me through every life-altering decision I’ve ever made. I trust it, it’s usually right, and therefore I listen to it. So in most cases, if you think your gut is telling you it’s the right thing to do, even if it’s telling you it might be the right thing to do, you have to listen to it. Your instincts and trust, trust yourself, that you’ve got the information you need to move forward in any endeavor or whatever you’re doing in life. So I used my gut for everything that I’m doing in life, and so far, so good. Knock on wood.
Matthew: Well, the funny thing with that, Warren, is that more and more scientists are now saying that there is, that the gut might be a part of a larger thinking entity, in terms of 80 or 90% of our serotonin is manufactured in our gut. Bacteria might be somehow communicating with other processes. So when people say, go with your gut, that’s not just slang, like how your gut makes you feel good or bad or nervous, but there’s something larger possibly going on there, so I would agree with that.
Warren: There you go, it’s all about science. There you go, at the end of the day. Nice one.
Matthew: Warren, thanks so much for joining us on the show today and educating us about aquaponics and all the different ways you think about growing cannabis. This was really fascinating, and I’m sure the listeners will find it so. Good luck with everything you’re doing up there. Let us know when your lighting study comes out.
Warren: I absolutely appreciate the opportunity, we’re always looking to advance our aquaponics platform, and looking forward to anybody who is interested in the space. You can certainly look at my website at greenrelief.ca or greenrelief.com. Tells you all about us, there’s some videos on there. We like to talk to people, and we’re looking to advance the science of aquaponics, so don’t be afraid to reach out. Looking forward to anybody saying hello.
Matthew: Yeah, and for the people that are interested in building aquaponics into their grows, that’s the same contact information.
Warren: Absolutely. They can call our client care service, they can call Jim Reddon, my COO. I’m again, Warren Bravo, I’m the CEO and co-owner, co-founder. Reach out anytime. We’re here to help, and anybody who’s interested in sustainability and growing it with the most natural methods known to mankind. Please give us a call.
Matthew: Well thanks so much, Warren.
Warren: Thank you Matt, it was an absolute pleasure.
Charles Jones has vape pens are selling in 6 states and starting on 4/20 they will be available in California. Why are dispensaries ordering his vape pens in greater and greater quantities?
Charles has stumbled upon the holy grail of cannabis enthusiasts that is his vape pens allow you to experience consistent moods consistently. The moods you can experience are; party, focus, bliss, focus, relax, and flow.
Enjoy this fascinating interview to understand where the cannabis market is moving.
[1:18] – Charles’ Background
[6:24] – What is Functional Cannabis
[8:45] – Moods available for vape pens
[11:57] – What was budtenders’ feedback
[23:30] – How to manage distribution and licensing
[25:20] – Functional beverages next big category
[27:34] – Books that had an impact on Charles
[30:44] – Roadmap for LucidMood
What are the five trends that are disrupting the cannabis industry?Find out with your free cheat sheet at http://www.cannainsider.com/trends
MATTHEW: The Holy Grail of cannabis consumption is to be able to elicit the same mood consistently so you can count on getting the same experience. The alcohol industry mastered consistency a long time ago, but in general, only allows for one type of mood. Our guest today has successfully and consistently dialed in several experiences with his product. I am pleased to welcome Charles Jones of Lucid Mood back to the show. Charles, welcome back to CannaInsider!
CHARLES JONES: Thank you, Matt.
MATTHEW: Give us a sense of geography. Where are you in the world today?
CHARLES: Beautiful Boulder, Colorado.
MATTHEW: Good. And what’s the temperature like there? Is it mild, sunny?
MATTHEW: Seventy! Oh my goodness, that’s pretty warm for March. Okay. And for listeners that are new, can you remind us of your background and why you started down this path exploring cannabis moods?
CHARLES: Sure. So, I had a couple careers. The first was in software and the second was an executive coach, and that’s what I was doing when I stumbled upon the idea for Lucid Mood, upon the recognition that if we were to extract the individual cannabinoids and terpenes from the plant and combine them very intentionally, formulate them according to our growing understanding of neuroscience, that we would be able to dial in very specific therapeutic and recreational effects, and dial out the negative side effects that keep so many people from benefiting from the mood-enhancing effects of cannabis.
MATTHEW: We had you on the show sometime back, and I’ll link to that original episode [link here], but give us a reminder of what Lucid Mood’s first launch was and what happened.
CHARLES: Sure. Our development platform, if you will, for experimenting with various combinations of cannabinoids and terpenes involved using hemp pucks that we would infuse with cannabinoids and terpenes and then we would have people place these hemp pucks in a dry flower vaporizer in order to consume them. And that turned out to be, actually a very good development platform that allowed us to very efficiently test a lot of different formulas. But when we attempted to bring that to market, we just found that it was too cumbersome for folks, so we pivoted, and put our formulas into vape pens, and that’s where we are today.
MATTHEW: Okay, and this is kind of an interesting thing. You make it sound like it’s such a smooth transition, but that’s a pretty big pivot. Tell us a little bit about the feedback you were getting from investors, consumers, and what made you ultimately decide to pivot.
CHARLES: People have always loved the formulas and the effects that they get from it, so that has been a win from the very beginning. In our testing, we would hold what we would call testing parties, and we would invite people to come to them, and we would make it extremely easy for them. We’d have the pucks prepared, and we’d hand them the dry flower vaporizer with the puck already in it, so it was quite efficient. Once people had the experience, they were very excited and were very willing to go through those steps in order to consume it. Once we launched that product in dispensaries, however, the feedback that we got is, that essentially we were in this catch-22, that until people actually experienced how differentiated our effects were from the other products that were in the dispensary, there were very few of them that were willing to go through the effort of that current delivery system. Some of our investors had anticipated this objection, that there was just too much friction to enable speedy adoption. We saw that right away. Over a long weekend, my co-founder, a brilliant mechanical engineer and production engineer named David Georges, he put our oils into vape pens, and then we brought those back out to the market and had an entirely different reception to it. In fact, since launching in November 2016 here in Colorado, we’ve been seeing just tremendous, month over month growths, very rapid adoption, and an extraordinary level of customer loyalty to the product. We kind of went from something that was very cumbersome to what’s the absolutely… what’s the path of least resistance? What delivery system would be incredibly simple for people to use, so we put the oils into ready-to-use vape pens. People just open the package, there’s no button, there’s no need to charge it, they just put it in their lips, take a few sips, and they’re having the Lucid Mood experience.
MATTHEW: I want to talk about that growth and the reason why you think that’s happening, but let’s back up a little bit and talk about a new category that it seems like you’ve created called functional cannabis. What does that mean exactly?
CHARLES: We certainly view our product as representing a new category, and in fact many in the industry do as well. New Frontier Data, for example, calls what we’ve done Cannabis 2.0. From their perspective, it’s where cannabis is going, toward being able to deliver, as you mentioned in your opening, very consistent effects. But the other place I see that cannabis is going is that up until this point, the mood-enhancing experience of cannabis, whether you’re using it to relieve pain or reduce your anxiety or help you go to sleep, on sort of the more therapeutic side, or whether you’re using it to get into a state of flow, or just chill after work, or watch a movie, or as a social lubricant as a replacement to alcohol. You can get those effects from cannabis, but you could get these other effects as well. You would get this feeling of being tired or lethargic after you’ve used it. And of course some people struggle with feeling paranoid when they use marijuana, or feeling socially withdrawn. So those impairments, if you will, reduce your functionality. So you get the mood-enhancing benefits but at the cost of some level of functionality. So for us, functional cannabis is one that delivers a very specific or therapeutic or recreational benefit while keeping you functional, while eliminating those typical side effects, which I think all of us need to admit are there in cannabis.
MATTHEW: Right. And you touched on a few of the moods that you offer there, but can we go over some of them, because you have some interesting ones, for sleep, party, bliss, focus, maybe you could just do a little overview of each and how to think and orient about each one.
CHARLES: Sure. We have what we call the Wellness line, and the Wellness line includes Relief, which is very good for relieving aches and sores and pains, reduces cramps, and is actually fantastic if you have a hangover. It really tends to relieve that as well. So that one’s called Relief. We have Sleep, that’s kind of obvious, it supports you getting to sleep, or if you wake up in the middle of the night, you can just sip on the pen to help you go back to sleep. And you wake up in the morning refreshed. You don’t have the dullness or a little bit of a hangover that you might get from going to sleep on say, a heavy Indigo. We also have in that same line, one called Calm, which as the name implies, if you’re feeling a little anxious or stressed you just suck on this and you’re going to very instantly calm. Then in what we call the Play line, our leading product there is called Party, and it is like alcohol, it reduces social anxiety, it reduces social inhibitions, but unlike alcohol, it’s very energizing, uplifting, you’re very alert and clearheaded. You can sip it all night long and it doesn’t make you stupid. If you do a party with Party, it’s really delightful. It’s really good for almost any kind of social situation. We have another one called Energy, which is marvelous for going on a hike. Going out there, it’s uplifting and motivating and energizing. We have another one called Chill, which is both relaxing and blissful. It’s really wonderful for just kicking back with friends, watching a movie, stuff like that. Then we are bringing out another one called Flow, which you kind of become immersed in whatever you’re doing while retaining this almost kind of witness consciousness about what you’re doing, so it’s wonderful for artistic endeavors, or any kind of flow activity that you might enjoy.
MATTHEW: The first time that you launched Lucid Mood, the budtenders gave you some feedback, and then the second time they gave you feedback too. How would you contrast that feedback? What were they saying? When they were talking to you, did anything surprise you?
CHARLES: When we launched with the infused hemp pucks, the feedback is, oh, this is too much trouble, people aren’t going to use this product, and that turned out to be quite accurate. Then when we launched with the vape pens, the feedback that we got was much more nuanced and varied among the budtenders. One of the pieces of feedback is that people just really loved the taste of the product. Now, we don’t flavor the product per say, but the terpenes that we use to dial in the specific benefits that we are seeking, are all of course very flavorful. Most people like most of our flavors. There will be some people that don’t like some of them, but it’s a consequence of the formula we’re using. We get a lot of feedback on the flavor. The other feedback that we got was, some of the budtenders just thought it was wonderful that we had this one to one ratio of THC to CBD which creates this very functional, mild experience, if you will; the elevation without the stupefaction associated with cannabis. Some of the budtenders thought that was amazing and great and could immediately see that there were people walking into the dispensary that were looking for something like that, that would like the mood-enhancing benefits of cannabis, but didn’t want something too heavy, or too disorienting. Then there were other budtenders who said, who’s going to buy this product? It’s too mild? Isn’t the point to dissociate and check out and stuff like that? People aren’t going to like this product. And of course over time, one of the most common things that I now hear, say a year after we launched in a dispensary is, a budtender saying, you know, I didn’t think the market for this mild high would be as big as it is, but it’s not just the elderly people and the middle-aged women and soccer moms and stuff. I’m seeing men in their twenties that are coming in and buying Lucid Mood Party and Lucid Mood Chill. I think they’ve been surprised. I think we’ve really kind of found an underserved section of the market, and we have lots of anecdotes and stories and people writing us that, a friend shared Lucid Mood with them, and prior to this they had tried marijuana a couple times and it was just too overwhelming for them. Really, they hate pot, they love Lucid Mood. So it’s a really different product.
MATTHEW: This is really interesting to me because I feel like, much like Apple hides the complexity of their products, you know. they have RAM in there, they have microprocessors, they have all these different alternating technologies that the consumer just doesn’t have to know about at all, but you’re scrutinizing and agonizing over the details of the terpenes and the ratios and all these things that elicit an experience, but you boil it down to, for the consumers, like, how do you want to feel? Do you want to feel like you’re going into a party, and that’s what you want? You want flow? And that just makes it so dirt-simple that it invites you in and makes the first step easy, I feel like. And I would say that’s where the market is going. Because how much do I really, do I really need to know everything? There’s always the connoisseurs, or the kind of craft market, where they’re like, I want to know all the nuances of how the cannabinoids are interacting with terpenes, and how that’s playing with my biology and neurochemistry, but most people just wanna know how this is going to make me feel.
CHARLES: Early after the release of the product here in Colorado, we got into a new dispensary up in the mountains. This was during ski season. They placed an order for a case of each of the moods. Two days later, they ordered two cases for each of the moods. Two days after, they ordered four cases for each of the moods. So I had to find out what was going on. I call them up and say, hey, what’s going on? And they say, well, it’s ski season, we have a line of people out the door, someone comes up to the register and they’re here to enjoy the mountains and skiing here in Colorado and they’re from some state that doesn’t have legal cannabis and they’re not that experienced. They look up at our board of strains and they say, what’s the difference between indica and sativa? And that’s just a cue for us. We could spend the next 10-15 minutes, walking through what the differences are, trying to find, do they want something energizing, do you want Blue Dream or do you want Durbin Poison, kind of go through all these distinctions, and that could take 10 or 15 minutes. Or we could simply pick up your point of purchase display, put it in front of them, and say, what effect are you looking for? And make the sale in a couple of minutes, knowing that they’re going to have a wonderful experience. It’s not going to overwhelm them. And they’re going to come back. If we sell them a string, and it’s they become overwhelmed, they become paranoid, it’s too much for them, they don’t have a good time, it’s just not a sure bet. They may never come into the dispensary again. So yours is the safe bet for someone is a newbie. That Baby Boomer that got high in the ‘60s and ‘70s, and now life’s a little bit different and they’re interested in getting back into it again. The soccer mom, the busy executive who wants something to relax in the evening, but they have to be 100% sharp at 8 A.M. the next morning when they start their day. For all those people, we just offer them Lucid Mood. And that dispensary has actually become our number one customer here in Colorado.
MATTHEW: That’s interesting. So your point of sale display has kind of a chart or just different categories of feeling, so the budtenders just say, how do you want to feel? Do you want to feel Party, Flow, Relax, and they just point to it and say, I want to feel Relax. And that’s how the conversation goes. Pretty important to have that point of sale diagram or supporting information it sounds like.
CHARLES: Absolutely. We were seeing an average of a 50% increase in sales in the dispensaries that keep that point of purchase display next to the cash register. What they tell me is that the customer will make their product selections, get to the register, and oh, this looks interesting, what’s this? And they’ll just add it to their order. So yeah, it’s been a very successful marketing strategy for us.
MATTHEW: Of course, vape pens also have the additional benefit of being discreet, which we talked about a little bit, but when you light up a joint, it’s like everybody in a city block knows what’s happening, what’s going on with you. But with a vape pen, it’s just so much more discreet. That’s why the market is just really gravitating to vape pens. Even more in California, it looks like, looking at some of the data.
CHARLES: And they’re so convenient as well as discreet. And ours have the added benefit of, since we’re not starting from the extract from a strain, we’re starting with the purified cannabinoids and terpenes with all active ingredients, it doesn’t even smell like marijuana. It smells like aromatherapy. It smells like the terpenes that are in the product.
MATTHEW: When I hear this story about how you pivoted and how that created success, I think about the Lean Startup methodology, of the build, measure, learn, and iterate. You did all those steps. You built it, you got feedback from the market, you learned what they were saying, and then you said, this is the market speaking to me. I have to adapt. And you adapted, and then boom. Product market fit, takeoff new category, which is great, and also, the one thing I warn about over and over, is that if you have a me too product, you’re going to eventually have to drop your price. Because you can’t defend a margin if you’ve got a me too product. And this is kind of the antithesis of a me too product, what you’ve developed here with Lucid Mood. Especially when people… Like you said, you created a category, so if they come to find that they like the Party mood with Lucid Mood, any competitor that comes along after you, they’re going to compare them to you. You’re the benchmark, where, this doesn’t compare to Party from Lucid Mood. It’s like they have something in their mind that you’ve created. You’ve got this category in their mind that’s very sticky and that’s hard to pull out just by virtue of being first and creating the category. It’s kind of like Coca-Cola. There might be other colas out there that people like better, but they’ve got this in their mind that this is the cola. It’s got the cola category in my mind, and it’s just so woven in it’s hard to take out. Any thoughts about that?
CHARLES: I’m wondering how you got ahold of our internal marketing plan. That’s very much how we think about this. We’ve got, at this point, 18 months of R and D into the development of these formulas and patent pending on them, so we’re very much looking for that highly differentiated predictable experience that people can only get through our brand for at least the time being. And become the benchmark against which other functional cannabis products are compared.
MATTHEW: So tell us a little bit about how this works when you want to go to a different state. Do you license the product, and then how does that work?
CHARLES: We now have licensing partners in six states, and essentially, the way it works is that we sell them pen kits. We will sell them 1000 of the Party device along with a slurry that contains legal ingredients in it. The packaging, the supporting sales and marketing collateral, and we’ll ship that off to our licensee. Our licensee will then add THC distillate to the slurry and use a filling station that we’ve developed to fill the pens. It’s foolproof, +/-2%, in terms of the volume of oil that gets in there. This helps… Consistency and the quality of our product in every market is hugely important to us, and this ensures that if you buy a Party pen in San Diego or a Party pen in Denver or a Party pen in Providence, Rhode Island, it’s exactly the same formula, the same ratio of cannabinoids and terpenes, the same experience each and every time.
MATTHEW: Very interesting. We talked about how you created a category here. Let’s pivot a little bit to where you think the beverage market is headed, because this is a huge, huge category, beverages. And there’s some interesting things happening there. How do you think about it? Does it dovetail with the cannabis market and what you’re doing?
CHARLES: Certainly, when I walk through Whole Foods, for example, and walk through the beverage aisle, I’m starting to see beverages that have some of the same names as our cannabis products. You know, Energize, Revitalize, Sleep, Calm. These names are beginning to appear. So the functional beverage market, which is a term that’s actually used in the food industry, is seeing tremendous rates of growth. I think that it’s not just beverages and not just cannabis where people are saying, I want my beverage to convey some health benefit or some mood-enhancing benefit. To date, it’s largely been, I want my beverage to convey some caffeine, or some alcohol, to modify my mood. But things, I think, are becoming much more nuanced now. And similarly, in the past it’s been, well, I either want indica or sativa, things are becoming much more nuanced as well. It’s no longer enough to get high. What benefit is this high going to convey at the same time? So I see this tendency everywhere. In fact, I was at a restaurant recently and looking at the menu, one of the things they had on the menu was an energy salad. And the promise of the salad? I’m looking at this and I’m like, okay, this functional meme, it’s a thing. It’s definitely a thing.
MATTHEW: Let’s pivot to some personal development questions, Charles. Is there a book that has had a big impact on your life or way of thinking that you’d like to share with listeners?
CHARLES: Well earlier you mentioned, boy, Charles, this sounds like the Lean approach to development, and actually, here on my desk there’s a book, Lean Thinking by James Womack and Daniel Jones. So that’s certainly a book that has influenced our thinking here. Another book that has influenced our thinking here is a book called Play Bigger, and it’s a book essentially on category marketing, and what it takes to become a category leader. One of the basic premises of the books is that, if you are the first to market in a new category, let’s say soft drinks, as Coca-Cola was, then in the mind of the consumers, you become identified with, Coca-Cola becomes synonymous for the soft drink category. It’s very difficult, then, for a competitor like Pepsi to ever unseat the king of that category. And becoming synonymous in the minds of consumers with functional cannabis, being able to deliver something which is dialed in enough to produce one very specific benefit that the consumer is looking for, and is mild enough that they remain sufficiently functional. That they can enjoy that recreational benefit, or go through their day and get their work done if it’s a therapeutic benefit. Making Lucid Mood synonymous with functional cannabis, that’s our next goal in terms of marketing. And we’ve certainly achieved that in the states we are already in, and we are launching in California in April.
MATTHEW: California, that’s great. I was going to ask you about that. So you’re just in Colorado now? You’re in six states, you said?
CHARLES: We’re on the shelves in Colorado, Rhode Island, Delaware, Maryland, and Oregon. The next state that we’re going to add is California.
MATTHEW: Wow, that California. You’re going to be busy.
CHARLES: Very busy.
MATTHEW: So back to your point about, like, you don’t want to compete with Coke. If you realize, that someone like a Charles has totally dominated a category, it’s best not even to compete, and if he’s got Coke, make Dr. Pepper. Because it’s better to start a new category than to compete on someone that has the higher ground and can keep on pushing you off the hill. That’s my opinion, anyway. So you’re in six states, you’re launching in California in April. Are you going to be all over California, or mostly starting in Northern California or Southern, or how is that going to look?
CHARLES: We’re going to launch in San Diego, and then make our way north up through the state.
MATTHEW: Is it difficult… How do you have the conversations? Do you work with a distributer, or are they reaching out to you? How do you get into a market like California, and what do you do there?
CHARLES: We had it happen every way. For instance, in Massachusetts, five different companies have contacted us to see about being, asking if they can be our licensing partner for Massachusetts. That happened in that way, and in the case of California, a dear friend of mine who had just met another person in the industry out there in California and just immediately realized, oh, these guys are a match, and put us together, and it was pretty much love at first sight. Just the perfect partner for us. Someone that shares our values, who looks for something where, the impeccability of the product, which has been so carefully and thoughtfully designed, with a real focus on having a very collaborative relationship with the distribution channel. We’re confident we’ve found the perfect partner for us for California.
MATTHEW: I just want to ask, too, about where you are in the investment cycle, if you’re looking for accredited investors, can you tell us where you are there? Raising capital?
CHARLES: Sure. We’ve been raising capital largely from Angel Investors. We had a friends and family round, and we are now finishing up our last Angel Investor round before we syndicate a Series A. We are pretty confident that we found our lead for our Series A. This would be more of an institutional investor that runs a large cannabis fund. So that’s where we are in that.
MATTHEW: Cool. If there are accredited investors that are looking to, they like what you’re saying and they want to participate in Series A, or invest in some way, is there a way they can reach out to you?
CHARLES: Sure. Absolutely. I’m CJ[at]LucidMood[dot]net.
MATTHEW: Okay cool. Well Charles, as we close, tell listeners how they can find you in dispensaries. Is there a way to do that? Is there a locator? What’s the best way to find a Lucid Mood that they can try?
CHARLES: They can go to LucidMood.net, and there is a dispensary button on the home page if you click on that and give it your GPS. It will show you nearby dispensaries where you can purchase Lucid Mood.
MATTHEW: Great. Well Charles, thanks so much for coming on the show, and well done. Good job pivoting to create product-market fit. That’s a really inspiring story, and we wish you the best as you expand into California and other markets.
CHARLES: Thank you so much Matt. It’s been a delightful conversation.