Cannabis banking has long been heavily regulated, but one company is weaving through the regulatory madness to create a service that delights both businesses and customers.
Here to tell us about it is Tyler Beuerlein of Hypur.
Learn more at https://www.hypur.com
[1:25] An inside look at Hypur, a payment and banking technology platform for the cannabis industry
[1:51] Tyler’s background and how he got into the cannabis space
[6:27] Obstacles the cannabis industry has faced in payments and banking and how Hypur is working to overcome them
[10:32] Similarities between Hypur and Venmo
[17:13] How Hypur profits off merchants, banks, and credit unions
[19:44] Ways in which Hypur helps merchants market the service to customers
[22:13] How cannabis retailers can easily integrate Hypur into their point-of-sale software and delivery apps
[23:22] Success stories Tyler’s seen among Hypur clients and his advice to retailers interested in using the service
Matthew Kind: Hi. I'm Matthew Kind. Every Monday, look for a fresh new episode where I'll take you behind the scenes and interview the insiders that are shaping the rapidly evolving cannabis industry. Learn more at cannainsider.com. That's C-A-N-N-A-insider dot com. Now here's your program.
Matthew Kind: Banking and payments for the cannabis industry is a heavily regulated and bogged down industry, but despite it all, one company is weaving through the regulatory madness and has come up with a compliant and seamless payment service that delights both cannabis businesses and customers. Here to tell us more is Tyler Beuerlein, CEO of Hypur. Tyler, welcome to CannaInsider.
Tyler Beuerlein: Thank you, Matt. I'm actually the Chief Revenue Officer. I don't want to get my head chopped off by the CEO of the company, but thank you very much. I appreciate it.
Matthew: No problem. That might be a harder role, to be in charge of revenue.
Tyler: Yes, especially in this wild world we live in, right?
Matthew: Well, Tyler, give us a sense of geography. Where are you in the world today?
Tyler: We're based on Scottsdale, Arizona. We've only got a couple of team members that work remotely, so our facilities here-- and we've been fortunate to have-- I would say a pretty mild experience all things considered with this. Very thankful to be here.
Matthew: What is Hypur on a high level?
Tyler: Great question. If you ask people throughout the industry, they'd probably all have a different answer, and that's for good reason. We started as a regulatory compliance technology company that was built to enable banks and credit unions the ability to serve high-risk industries. What people fail to realize in many cases is there are industries that-- I'm going to say dwarf cannabis from a volume perspective, that are perfectly legal, but have still been shut out of the banking industry for the most part. The reason being is because they oppose a significant regulatory compliance burden and significant risk to any bank or credit union trying to serve them.
We were built to really solve that problem for banks and credit unions. Think of us as almost a core banking system for a high-risk industry. In that, we knew we had to solve the banking problem for the payment side of Hypur to operate in an efficient sustainable manner. We're a combination of a regtech and a fintech in one cohesive platform. As we built out our foundation on the bank and credit union side, the payments side of Hypur went nationwide officially about a year ago, and we've been very fortunate to have a lot of success on that front.
Matthew: Can you share a little bit about your background and journey, and how you got into the cannabis space and became the Chief Revenue Officer of Hypur?
Tyler: Yes. I kind of had a-- maybe an odd path, but I was a professional athlete. I played baseball for a long time. Was fortunate to have a nice little career. I went to work for a private equity company in an offseason. It was in real estate. That company took off and I had stepped away from the game. I went through some injuries and some things like that. Then I actually started my own beverage company with a group that had had a lot of success in the alcoholic space, I mean with Carmelo Anthony.
We started a premium sports drink company. I had that for about five and a half years live the CPG experience on the front lines, and it was quite a learning experience as you can imagine. Then as I was transitioning out of that, I met the founder of Hypur and was fortunate to be with the company, really, day one. I've been with the company for over six years now and been on the front lines of this industry in a very unique way.
I've been able to not only be in front of most operators and licensees throughout the country and get to know them very well, been working closely with every bank and credit union, or most I should say that are serving this space. That's led to very deep relationships on the regulatory side of the fence, both at the state and federal level, and also at the state government level as well. It's been a wild ride but a great one.
Matthew: Could you briefly just give us some background on your baseball career?
Tyler: Yes. I went to college and was drafted. I won the seventh round in 2001 of the New York Mets. I came up through the system with them. Yes, I just had a great experience there and will always cherish that time of life.
Matthew: Yes, those New York fans can be great but also tough. Did you get a lot of lip service from the crowd at all?
Tyler: Oh yes.
Matthew: They'll let you know when they're not happy, right?
Tyler: Yes, you learn quickly at a young age to just have a thick skin and try and focus on the things you can control and not let those things affect you. It's actually a great learning experience to be used down the road because, again, you understand quickly that you can only control the things that are in your power, and you have to just drown the rest out.
Matthew: Also, I mean, having a batting out. What's considered a great batting average in professional baseball?
Tyler: Probably in the 300 range, I think, is-- You're hitting well if you're in that range.
Matthew: That's like 30% of the time you make it on base, that's what that means, right?
Tyler: Yes, it's a game of failure for sure. It's also a game I want to say we played somewhere in 165, 170, games in a matter of under 200 days. Again, you learn to shrug things off quickly, regroup, and go again. Then that's a metaphor for life, right?
Matthew: Yes. Well, Tyler, a lot of people that are listening have some sense of the difficulties and obstacles in the payments side of the cannabis space, but not everybody. Could you frame and give a snapshot of what makes payments challenging in the cannabis space and where we are today?
Tyler: Yes. Matt, most don't. Even I deal with very large sophisticated operators, and it never ceases to amaze me how shortsighted the approach is and where they end up as a result of it. In the state-legal cannabis industry, the branded card networks are opposed to have any cannabis transactions running on their networks until federal legality. I've seen a lot of people in the industry talk about how they think the SAFE Act is bringing Visa, Mastercard, to the table. It does not change the federal legal status of the products. Therefore, they will not participate even if the SAFE Act passes. That's one thing.
Two, we've seen recently operators go to market with things like cashless or reverse ATMs. Those are also prohibited. It's gone even a step further where technology providers in the space have formed partnerships with companies that are pushing those products, and they've raised money for their businesses based on revenues coming from transaction volume. The problem with it is you're dealing with fraudulent transactions again, and it's just a matter of time before those things get shut down en masse. In fact, I have a feeling there's going to be a significant shutdown here again soon of those products.
Everybody in the industry has been very stubborn about offering a card-based product to their member base. That's landed folks in hot water time after time. It not only has an effect on the consumer. It has an effect on the bank or credit union you're trying to bank them potentially. In the case of the deliverer-provider in California, you've now got the Department of Justice-involved in the investigation because they were offering credit card products to their member base, and to do so you'd have to defraud a bank or credit union.
I cautioned people constantly on doing things right and understanding that every decision they make in this space that's non-compliant is going to have a price, and it's going to be steep. Unfortunately, people just-- they keep making the same mistakes.
Matthew: I've definitely seen the ATM-type solution in dispensaries and so forth that you're talking about. It is complex. I mean, some people know that they're breaking the rules, others don't, and then others feel like they're damned not to have a simple or elegant solution if they don't take up one of these gray area payment solutions. I think that's why you're taking off. I've heard Hypur's name come up so much recently as kind of a solution. Just so we're clear for everybody, credit card, debit card's not allowed, ATM solutions, and dispensary not allowed. None of those things are allowed.
Tyler: No. Now, physical ATMs are allowed.
Matthew: Physical ATMs, but I'm saying--
Tyler: Physical ATMs, but on counter-reverse or cashless ATM is not permissible. Furthermore, one of the things that's happening with physical ATMs is regulatory bodies are very concerned about money being laundered through those physical ATMs, and so in many cases they're requiring that operators in the space use a third-party provider that owns and operates and stocks the cash. That's another thing that's been a bit of a pain point for the industry.
Matthew: Okay, but there is hope here. There's a way that Hypur works that can simply solve this problem, but it just doesn't involve credit cards, debit cards, or this kind of reverse ATM functionality. Let's walk through a scenario on how an order works with Hypur. Let's just say I am a retailer in California and I want to offer the most simple electronic payment solution possible, and I come to you. What are you going to tell me?
Tyler: Yes, we've gone to great lengths to make that process as seamless as humanly possible. Candidly, we've learned over the years as well on ways to streamline. We've taken a lot of input from the industry. From a consumer perspective, consumers expect an Amazon-type experience, right? They want to know that if they run a transaction, it's going to be reliable, it's going to be sustainable, and it's going to happen the way they expect.
In California right now, we've got some very wonderful partners, Caliva being one of them. If you go into Caliva's website as a consumer, first you would want to download our app. You can go on the Apple or Google Play Store, download our app, set up a quick profile. I've seen people do it in less than a minute. During that process, you would link your bank account, which is ultra simplistic. You just sign in with your username and password for whatever institution you're using, and then you choose a four-digit code that only you know.
Once you've done that once, when you go onto a site like, let's say, gocaliva to place your order, you choose Hypur as the form of payment. When the delivery driver comes out to deliver the product, they click on your name in their interface. A secure link is sent to your cell phone right there at the point of interaction. You're prompted to enter your four-digit code on your cell phone, so you don't have to touch the driver's device. That finalizes the transaction.
Our bank and credit union clients that openly bank the state-legal cannabis industry, and have built out their regulatory compliance programs to do so, move the money from the consumer's account directly into the merchants'. It's ultra simplistic, not only from an interaction standpoint, but also from a functionality perspective. There's a massive amount of compliance that has to take place behind the scenes, but from a user perspective, it's very seamless.
Matthew: How long does it take for that transaction to settle? It probably goes into a-
Matthew: - pay link status daily?
Tyler: Yes, daily. Many of our clients have shifted to Same-Day ACH. Again, we've shortened that settlement time significantly even over the last year.
Matthew: I put on my business owner hat here and I go, "Hey, if I'm going to go out, I'm going to get delivery to somebody's house, what if they don't have-- What if they have partial funds or not enough funds?" How do I know that they have enough funds to pay for this before I go out?
Tyler: We verify funds on three separate occasions. We verify funds the second the consumer places the order. We verify funds again the second the delivery driver leaves, and so we know that that consumer has funds available at the point of interaction. The transaction would be declined in a situation where they didn't, but we don't run into that, obviously, because of the additional verification.
Matthew: So it's fair to say this is very much like a Venmo or Cash App for a highly regulated industry?
Tyler: Yes, I think that's fair.
Matthew: If a consumer does get denied, do you tell them, "Hey, you have insufficient funds," or do they get a reason so they know?
Tyler: They do. They get a reason. Then, again, for a consumer ease of use and to benefit the retailer, when a consumer runs a transaction, they receive a text message with a copy of the receipt and the ability to leave a tip just like an experience with an Uber. They can leave a tip right there on the spot for the driver, which is nice for everybody. Again, getting cash out of the system, streamlining the process, and providing a really sustainable compliant means of payment.
Matthew: Now, is there anything you have to do in terms of language or psychology to help the end-customer feel comfortable with the process that they're going through because they're saying, "Hey, I'm putting my banking credentials in here. Is this high risk? How do I know Hypur's legit?" What do you say there?
Tyler: I think we encountered that more at the beginning because the industry didn't necessarily know who we were, but I think the more that we've tried to educate the community-- Again, our clients are banks and credit unions, so from a security perspective, our security protocols and the audits we have to go through on a yearly basis are far in excess of what a normal payment company would go through. That's one.
Matthew: Compared to a credit card, say, for example, that's usually like a three-day settlement process. Is that right, or do I have that point?
Tyler: Correct. Yes.
Matthew: Okay. So they're getting faster cash flow with Hypur than a credit card? That's good.
Tyler: Yes, and that will continue to speed up as more of our clients adopt Same-Day ACH.
Matthew: I'm trying to understand where it-- Sometimes an end-user might contest a charge or say it's of the wrong amount or entirely fraudulent. I would imagine much less so since there's so much in the setup process here. Do you have any stats on how that compares to, say, a credit card?
Tyler: It's not even close to being comparable. There are a number of reasons for that. One, the consumer is identified through the process on multiple occasions. Again, we've got access directly to available balances, and then they've got to authenticate the transaction at the point of interaction. The chances that something would be fraudulent on our platform is virtually impossible for those reasons. Then from a dispute standpoint, it's rare if ever that we see it, and typically, it's a quick fix between the merchant and the consumer. At the end of the day, we're just there to move the money in a compliant, sustainable, and convenient manner.
Matthew: How does Hypur make money here? You have to keep the lights on. If you're doing a good job, everybody wants you to make money. How do you strike the right balance of profitability and then the cannabis retailers' profitability? How does that work?
Tyler: Hypur is compensated in a number of ways. Again, you've got to remember our clients are banks and credit unions, and they use our technology to banking industry, so that's a revenue stream. Then at the payment perspective, think of us as a network like Visa, Mastercard, for high-risk industries, so we charge a per-transaction fee to the merchant. Those are the ways that we generate revenue in the industry. That's our business model. As the payment network expands, obviously, that can be a very lucrative endeavor.
Matthew: Can you give us a range in terms of what your percentage is for retail cannabis companies, typically?
Tyler: Typically 3% per transaction is where we land, somewhere in that range, so very much in line with traditional mainstream fees for transactions.
Matthew: We've given the example here about a cannabis retailer doing a delivery to an end-user, but there's a lot of B2B cannabis companies that would love not to have huge truckloads of cash and so forth. Is that an option? Let's say I'm a wholesaler ,or a grower, and I want to sell to a retailer. Can I use Hypur?
Tyler: Yes, it is, and that's a great question. A couple of things there. One, I think the days of truckloads of cash are behind us. In fact, I would argue that if somebody in this industry is not banked at this point with an institution that knows what they're doing, they're probably doing that by choice, or they don't want to be transparent. Also, we built out a full Business-to-Business product, and we actually modified our pricing recently to be-- I'm going to say right in line with mainstream ACH processing so any distributor, any wholesaler, any wholesale platform can use Hypur to facilitate transactions between two parties. That's life today.
Since we modified our pricing to be more in line with mainstream, we've seen huge interest. I think you'll start to see the infrastructure of this industry start to shift to Hypur for those B2B payments.
Matthew: Let's say I'm a cannabis retailer. I've been trying a bunch of different ways. Maybe I tried some credit cards in the past and different things, and everything just keeps on getting shut down. I'm frustrated. I want to do it right. I turn to Hypur and I say, "Help me with this." Do you have any kind of marketing or any kind of support to help a retailer inform their customers about, "Here we are with Hypur," and, "This is how to use it," and to get them comfortable with it?
Tyler: Yes, we're very aggressive on that side of the fence. We have a full marketing team in-house that supports our merchants with, really, anything they want to do from a marketing perspective within reason. We never want to be the type of company that drops something in a building and walks away. That's not our model. We're not successful unless our partners are successful, so we're there to hold their hand.
Really, we've done some really, really creative things with retailers across the country that have been very successful. We also can provide input on what we've seen work in specific markets, depending on the demographic. Yes, absolutely, that's something we really view this as a true partnership with our retail clients.
Matthew: How do you make sure that the end-users' entailed during the sign up session process? Do you just have them put in the bare minimum to get started on an order and then they have to provide more when it gets closer to the transaction being complete? How does that work?
Tyler: No, it's a pretty seamless sign-up process already. We can actually see internally where consumers are if they drop off, and so our customer service team will reach out to them if they have dropped off during that process. At this point, we don't see much of it at all. If consumers want a reliable sustainable means of transaction that's convenient, and my hope is that the industry finally realizes that, one, it's here, it's taken a long time for us to get to this point because we did it right. They're starting to really trust in that process.
Obviously, I'm going to say COVID sped that up a good six months to a year really industry-wide because the industry had to shift to a mobile or curbside pickup model, and that's where we thrive. All those things have been a big benefit.
Matthew: If a cannabis retailer has their Point of Sale software in the dispensary, and then they maybe have crafted a delivery app, is integration-- How does that work? Is it like there is an API or some documentation that shows how to integrate it into your app? Do you have a ready-made solution? What do you suggest, or what are the available options?
Tyler: Yes, we do. We've been fortunate to integrate with most of the major providers at this point, not only from a point of sale perspective, but also delivery. On the delivery side, the two dominant players in the space seem to be Jane and Dutchie. We're fully integrated with both of those providers, but our entire dev team is in-house. We have API's built out for everything. From an integration perspective, it's really up to that provider of how quickly they want to get it done. It's not a heavy lift at all at this point, so we've really tried hard to make that process seamless.
Matthew: You work with a spectrum of retailers or cannabis businesses. You see some that execute well, I'm sure, and some that just don't execute that well. Is there any kind of suggestions you would give to a cannabis business to really jump in with both feet and start accepting electric payments and just run their business well with this? Because you're seeing so many. Some execute, some don't. What are the ones that do execute? What do they have in common?
Tyler: The ones that execute it right understand payments through and through. They have sophisticated people in the building that understand that if they keep launching shoddy payment products, they're going to lose the consumer base that's going to be their long-term consumer. Because they're not going to sit around for a payment product that keeps going under, they're going to find something sustainable.
My advice to the industry is get people in your building that really understand this, or get to people in the industry that understand it through and through, and can point you in the right direction. Again, it never ceases to amaze me the short-sightedness when it comes to banking and payments in the space. I feel like over the last six and a half years I've seen just about everything.
Again, I see operators like Caliva in California that do it right, that get it, that understand it. Then I see multistate operators that are at the pinnacle of their game, and very highly regarded in the industry, that have no clue what they're doing, to be candid. It's very frustrating.
Matthew: I noticed this kind of variability in execution on a lot of different fronts, not just payment, marketing, packaging, and on and on and on. I think it's difficult sometimes because you have this internal team and they don't even really know what to compare themselves with because they don't know what their competitor's doing, how fast they iterate, how their mindsets may be more aggressive, and so on and so forth. It's good to hear that feedback, hopefully.
Tyler: Here's another thing too. Not to get off on another subject, but I think it's going to be the next pain point for the industry, candidly. To that point, you can't compare the cannabis industry to anything else. If you haven't been in the cannabis industry for a long period of time and learn these lessons, you're going to fail. With all due respect to the people that come from CPG, or they have retail backgrounds, or they come from the investment banking side, and they get into the C-Suite of a large operator, and they make decisions based on what they think is right based on their background, it doesn't translate. That's part of the problem.
My fear is, as some of these multistate operators fail, which inevitably they're going to, it's going to continue, and new leadership as appointed, these VC firms that are pointing that leadership are going to put people in the "don't get the industry", and it's going to take them 12, 18, 24 months before they really learn it and can really truly understand it. By that point, it's too late. They've already failed. Again, I know that's getting to a different shifting gears and getting to a different point, but it's a metaphor for everything that's happened in this industry.
Matthew: Is there any kind of consulting firm that acts as an outsource partner to manage the whole payment functionality for cannabis businesses? Because a lot of them don't have this as a strong suit. As we're talking about there's no one in the building, as you say, that is good at this, do you work with any consultants or anybody that helped make this possible?
Tyler: I would say there are legal firms that get it, that understand. They can advise, but even then, in some cases, that's few and far between. You really have to know who to go to in this space. It's not an easy thing. I say these things, and I understand why merchants make short-sighted decisions, because they just don't know better and they're being fed, aligned by somebody who's got a vested interest in them using their product. We call it whack-a-mole in the building.
Literally, I spent the last couple months watching a massive wave come into the industry. It's about to end really badly for people and they just don't get it, and they won't until it happens, unfortunately.
Matthew: Well, just expand on that a little bit more in what you mean by that?
Tyler: Oh, I'm talking about reverse ATM and cashless ATM products. They spread quickly throughout the industry and people are being told that they're permissible and sustainable, and they're just not. It's going to be interesting to see how that plays out, not only for the retailers that have launched those products, but for the investors that have invested in companies based on added revenue to their balance sheets from those products.
Matthew: When you look ahead the next few years in the payment space in the cannabis industry, at least in North America, how do you think it's evolving? Where's the puck going?
Tyler: I think it's going to be more of the same for the foreseeable future. I think you're going to see companies like ours innovate. We're about to do a couple of things that are going to have a big impact on the industry. Look, eventually, upon federal legality, the branded card networks will come to the table, they will participate in the industry. I think those that can make the right decisions, find the right partners, do things right and not shoot themselves in the foot for later, those are going to be the ones that really thrive.
I think that for us, again, we're building a network for a high-risk industry. Cannabis is not going to be the only industry we go after. We understand the branded card numbers are coming and we're building our network for that. We'll be ready when that day comes and it will be a huge win for our clients. Again, in the foreseeable future, it's going to be more of the same.
Matthew: Well, Tyler, I'm want to ask you a few personal developing questions but, because of your background, I'm going to change them up a little bit here. You mentioned you were in the beverage space. A lot of people are talking about cannabis beverages being a big thing and cannibalizing some of the alcohol industry. From where you sit and having your background in the beverage industry, do you think that's coming? If so, when, and what would that look like?
Tyler: Yes, I think it's coming in a way, but the part that people miss a little bit about the beverage industry, especially the non-alcoholic side, is it's a brutal world, and it's extremely difficult to get into shelf space. Every time you walk into a convenience store, you got to understand that those shelves are owned by many of those big companies and those distributors. If you don't have relationships there, you're not going to get in. It's not as easy as just launching a product and hoping it takes off.
For the cannabis space, it's going to take federal legality, obviously. For the foreseeable future, it's still going to be based on distribution in licensed operating retail shops. These beverage brands are going to have to sign the right licensing deals in the right markets. They're going to have to take the right market share, build up enough of a following to where when that wall falls, they're prime for takeover by one of the big distributors that can feed them into their network. I don't think I know--
In today's world, it's all about the licensing agreements you can do as a brand, what operators you're with, in which markets, which markets you can dominate. It's just going to have to be state by state expansion until, again, that wall falls.
Matthew: Having a background in professional sports, which is pretty rare, what have you taken away from your professional sports career and integrated into your life that you see like, "Hey, other people just don't do this," who don't have this kind of high-level sports mentality, and maybe you consider it as a superpower or at least an understanding that most people don't have?
Tyler: Gosh, so much. One, just cherish the time that I've been able to have with teammates over the years and the friendships that have come from it. I think being in the sports world-- I was talking to my best friend who played in NFL for a long time. We were talking about-- I remember living with people from different backgrounds. I mean, there were people I lived with who didn't even speak English at some point. I think one of the biggest takeaways is you find a way to find common ground with everybody. You find a way to create a family atmosphere with people that you don't necessarily know well. I think that's one big takeaway that's really helped me in my life.
When you're around different people every single day, and you're in different environments every single day, you learn to listen to your gut. It's not something that's easily explainable, I don't think. It's not something that's quantifiable, but it's always there. I think at a young age, for me to learn to really listen to that, it's helped me in every aspect of life. Again, if I had to interview every teammate and ask them that question, they probably all have a different answer, but those are the two biggest takeaways for me.
Matthew: Thanks for that, Tyler. Now, Tyler, as we close, how can cannabis businesses that are interested in working with Hypur, how can they reach out to you and talk about a payment solution and connect with you?
Tyler: I think mostly everybody in this industry probably has my phone number at this point, good or bad, so you should be very easy to get ahold of. They can reach out through our website, hypur.com, H-Y-P-U-R.com. They can find me on LinkedIn, shoot me a private message. Look, we're here to help, and I mean that. Even if somebody decided that they want to go a different path, at least they'll have all the information if they give us a call.
On top of that, one thing we've done for the industry for over six years now is, anytime somebody is in need of a transparent banking relationship, we will always pair them with the appropriate bank or credit union based on where they're located, type of operator, what their needs are, and we don't ask for anything in return. We believe in doing that for the industry. Please use us. We've learned a lot of these lessons the hard way. If I can help somebody avoid a landmine in this industry, we're happy to do it.
Matthew: Tyler, would you mind spelling your first name and last name in case anybody does want to reach out to you on LinkedIn?
Tyler: Sure. First name is Tyler, T-Y-L-E-R. Last name is pronounced Beuerlein. A little more difficult to spell, so it's B as in boy, E-U-E-R-L-E-I-N. Again, that's pronounced Beuerlein.
Matthew: Hypur is H-Y-P-U-R?
Matthew: Tyler, thanks so much for coming on the show today. We really appreciate it. I know everybody that's listening appreciates having a simple solution when they make an order, so that's really welcome. Good luck with everything you're doing. You're growing fast. Hopefully, you'll come back onto the show in awhile and tell us how things are going.
Tyler: Thank you so much, Matt. I really appreciate the time. Keep doing a great job.
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